The new guy on the crew asks “how come we use 2 ,2by12’s for headers on a trussed gable end ,wouldn’t seem like we need any from what you’ve told me about load bearing.” Then the feeding frenzie starts. and another guy says “yeah andhow come we 2by 12″s anyway ain”t that over kill ,ain”t there some book that tells you you can use something smaller ?” And then “when do you have to start useing double trimmers on rough openings , 4,6or 8ft openings?” Well as you can see I had to go to the lumber yard ( breaktime) Help? Since this is payday I think I can hold them off with minor threats of having to work tomorrow if they don”t shut up and get something done,Ilove it when they do this to me everybody is gonna get a raise.
Replies
Because that's they way we've always done it.
Happiness, n.: An agreeable sensation arising from contemplating the misery of another.
I had to convince my framers to leave out the gable end headers. It never had occurred to them that you could do it any other way.Andy Engel, The Former Accidental Moderator
I asked the old codger I once worked with a similar question. He gave me a scatheing look and said "That's so the window sills end up in the right place." I said "Oh."
Took me a long time to figure out why he kept chuckling to himself all afternoon.
Doc - The Old Cynic
Because those young no-nothin's could never remember which wall to put the 2x12 headers in and which walls they can leave them out. ...that's not a mistake, it's rustic
Hey B.H. These same guys got to talking about the correct nailing patteren for anchoring truss's to the top plate , since they worked for other companies they were told different ways, I've found sometimes boss's or leadmen will answer a qusetion just because they don't want to look bad in front of the crew whether they know the correct answer or not.
My standard answer is, well it's for the lady of the house, so she can hang heavy curtain rods and hit good solid wood everywhere. She paid extra for it, so put them in, she'll be checking.
My confession is also that I use 2 x 10's for all door headers, load bearing or not. I use single for interiors/non-bearing, with a 2 x4 on the bottom(like an I-joist) and doubles for bearing. I'm wasting wood, but I think it looks cool.
Most use 2x12's because estimating takes a lot of time..and this speeds things up a lot.....also less job site confusion....
and over a longer length...the header's got to have enough strength to support it's own weight as well.....like over a garage door........which explains why lotsa of the garage door 2x4 headers sag over time.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
YIKES!!!!
Anytime you blokes are ready you can tell me you were just pulling our leg!!
If I left headers out of a Gable wall two things would happen
1. It would not pass inspection
2. I'd have to put them in
3. I'd get laughed at. ( so?..that's three things..who's counting?)
Now. Who's going to tell us why we do have to put headers into Non Load Bearing walls??
( hint...it's got nothing to do with roof loads )
Edited 12/14/2002 12:38:54 AM ET by MARKCADIOLI
Edited 12/14/2002 12:39:38 AM ET by MARKCADIOLI
Id tell them because the math is easier w/ 2X mat'l then 1 1/2X or 1 5/8X mat'l..:)
At Darkworks Customer satisfaction Job One..Yea yea were all over it , I got my best guys on it.........
I had to take a polaroid today, I wish it hand been digital so I could share them withyou. My new laborer/third was nailing hurricane clips trusses to top plates. We had two trusses temped up with a couple of studs and plates until we got the hangers to attach them to the girder. So anyway, my laborer nails the hurricanes to this temp "wall"sitting all lonely in the middled of this room, but hey, it won't blow away!
Now ,who's going to tell us why we do have to put Headers in non load bearing walls?" ....Mark , it really is a serious question , any help you could give would be appreciated also why 2by12s and why double trimmers over 4 ft.....thanks Nails.
Nails
the answer to both your questions, ( headers and double studs ) is one and the same.
You can find the answer here
http://quittintime.infopop.cc/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Const&Number=4248&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1&PHPSESSID=
Edited 12/14/2002 5:34:48 PM ET by MARKCADIOLI
I got an "Access Denied" message when I tried it.
My access is denied too. That is one of the most aggrivating, flippant, exclusionary bits of computer lingo I hear all the time. I'd like to meet the geek who originally came up with that saying.
Had to hit the login button a enter name and password to get in.
I'll differ with you about your answer though. What you say is true but you don't need a full header to do it..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Hello Piffin
That would depend on the opening size. In the case of a 2 ft wide window, you could probably get away without a header at all. But what about an 8ft wide window?..another factor to consider is if the ceiling is strapped. This would allow a certain amount of lateral force to be transferred from the exterior wall to the rest of the building.
In any case for us it is a moot point as all our headers are engineered and sized according to live/dead loads and wind ratings. we just follow the plan and put 'em where we are told.
regards
mark
So you've basicaly agreed that it should be sized to the span?.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Piffin
I wasn't aware that the question was one of sizing?..I thought it was about why there should be a header on a non loadbearing wall...and why multiple cripples??
regards
mark
I gues I was refering to the comment about furring out materisl built out to 3"s, and as for the double trimmers, I think that its jus load bearing for bigger spans carrying more load, then again when i was visiting California i noticed they sometimes use these flimsy little hangers to attach the header to the king stud...go figure
And why do we use 2X10 headers over 2.0 6.8 doors? Wouldnt a dble 2X4 on the flat with cripples be enough and then we wouldnt have to shim out a header to rock. Also.....Why don't they manufacture 2X10's specifically for headers so we dont have to shim to rock. Geezzzzzz they make everything else.
One works on oneself, always. That's the greatest gift you can give to community because the more you extricate your mind from that which defines separateness, that defines community. The first thing is to become community. "Ram Dass"
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
"One works on oneself, always." Hey A.C. I' m with you. I don"t know what the "Math" guys have got to say about load bearing but most of the time 2 2by12s or10s look like elaborate nailers. I'm still stuck on why 2 of these together ?
Here in the Seattle area we always (with rare exception)use 4x for headers on bearingwalls and and criplled "box"Headers over non bearing(also "california" headers) Depending on the print and engineering we often don't need bearing headers under gables as the gable carries the load. The only time we have to fur out headers is with glu-lams and such.
Scot...very cool idea..I'm gonna ask my lumber yard about 4x's...Wondering the price differential including less labor.
a....PS... you werent ever an astronaut were you?One works on oneself, always. That's the greatest gift you can give to community because the more you extricate your mind from that which defines separateness, that defines community. The first thing is to become community. "Ram Dass"http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Just a space cadet...when I was a commercial fisherman in Alaka, Ihad a particularly disastrous trip, on the fiasco plane, not tragedy, and when I returned to port a buddy of mine was there to catch my lines and proclaim in his best monster truck anouncer voice, "Scott Carpenter, the disasternaught !" Aw, the sympathy and caring, brought a tear to my eye...from the lack of oxegen from laughing so hard.
Scott
Not too interesting but I had a guy that worked for me for three years with your name........real nice guy. was it you?
aOne works on oneself, always. That's the greatest gift you can give to community because the more you extricate your mind from that which defines separateness, that defines community. The first thing is to become community. "Ram Dass"http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
no, i'm in the seattle area, and I've only worked for two guys and myself...but som people think I.m a nice guy...well, my wife...well, most of the time...some of the time
Nails,
I was that new guy with the same question when I first started with about 5000 other questions for my Boss.
I was told because it keeps the top of all windows and doors at the same height. When using 8' precuts 92-5/8" it gives you the proper rough opening height for a prehung 6'8" door. Every single house that I've framed since 1983 I've used 2/ 2x10 with a 2x4 cap on the bottom. That's one way. Or 2/ 2x12's, with about 3/8" to 1/2" diffrerence between the two in height.
It is also easier when your cutting the headers for a whole house no matter what system you have you use the same material.
Most builders wanted 2/ 2x10's. I asked how come you don't use 2/2x12's like some other builders, they said because afterwards befor they sheetrocker gets there you have to fir down the bottom because 2/2x12's only equal 3".
We still use the same headers even for 9' and 10' ceilings with cripples above.
Joe Carola
Joe
If we're cutting cripples anyway why not cut them accordingly so as not to waste material? 2' doors dont need 2x10's.so on and so forth. Just cut the cripples differently. I think the right answer is "because its easier".
Be a stud
Namaste
AndyOne works on oneself, always. That's the greatest gift you can give to community because the more you extricate your mind from that which defines separateness, that defines community. The first thing is to become community. "Ram Dass"http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy,
I agree with you. I had asked my boss what's more expensive a 2/2x10 head or 2/2x4's. "Because it's EASIER".
You would think out of all the houses that builders do multiplied by the extra 2x10's or 2x12's it would all add up.
This conversation still goes on. But if you drive past any development or addition you'll see 2x10's or 2x12's everywhere.
Joe Stud Carola
The other half of the answer, in my opinion, is taht most framers don't buy the materials so do whatever is faster and easier. I am just wrapping up a 2 unit rental house that I built this past year. Yes, it took me over an entire year to build a 2000 sqft structure. I built it with my guys when we didn't have scheduled work doing trim. Guaranteed everybody 40 hrs a week all year.
Anyway, being the cheap bastard that I am, I eliminated every oversized header and used double 2x4's spaced with osb for most window & door openings. We also eliminated every triple 2x4 corner and 3 stud T and instead used leftover 3/4 t&g floor sheathing as drywall backer at all wall intersections. We glued it to the stud and fastened with screws. I had no problem with the building inspector passing either item and probably saved at least $500.00 in materials. Also, I feel like the exterior walls get better insulation since it goes unbroken around each interior wall intersection and into each corner.
Most of what i did came from FHB article on optimizing framing.
DG
Took you over a year to build 2000sq ft? Makes me feel better. Took me about 2-3 years to build/renovate that house in my website. I thought going from scratch was easier. I aint ever tying in again if I can help it. Knock the whole damn thing down if possible and start anew.Sometimes its just not worth keeping up partial. Sorry.....most of the time!!!!
Be well
Namaste
AndyOne works on oneself, always. That's the greatest gift you can give to community because the more you extricate your mind from that which defines separateness, that defines community. The first thing is to become community. "Ram Dass"http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
According to everything, everything printed in the last twenty years, I have read headers over windows in non-bearing walls, jack studs, cripples as needed for sheet goods are still OK, under any window are not recommended as a standard practice under modern or energy efficiency standards. Makes sense to me but I'm just an ignorant electrician who doesn't know any better.