Replies

1. 
   Hubedube | Oct 22, 2004 05:50pm | #1

   In the 'good old days' we used charcoal firepots to heat up a couple of copper solderingirons.

   To-day, there are soldering irons that adapt onto the torch head and are quite sufficient. Make sure you use the proper "killed acid" (flux).

2. 
   seeyou | Oct 22, 2004 06:08pm | #2

   Electric soldering irons won't work on flashing. I have two types of rigs. One is a copper with the propane flame blowing on the back of it. The other type is a propane oven that heats individual coppers of what ever size you need for the particular operation. Sidenote: I seldom solder counter flashings. I pop rivet them together. Soldering flags together is messy and seldom holds, especially on long runs.

1. 
   putzik | Oct 23, 2004 01:47am | #3

   Thanks! Is a flag a horizontal piece like a valley? And counter flashing: would that be like a window sill? I own an old church and am doing the belltower window sills in copper, which transfers to 3"x 3" trim about 2' long meeting at the corners [I was covering the top and front of the trim and attemting to solder the corners where two pieces meet]. Is it a problem to nail the edges of a long run? I did the valley where the roof dives into the bell tower, so the copper runs vertically up the wall of the belltower, then is overlapped by shorter pieces to carry the flashing up under the window sills--I was caulking and nailing the overlapped edges. The temperature here in the NW doesn't often go below freezing, maybe into the 20's or teens once or twice a year.

1. 
   seeyou | Oct 23, 2004 11:31am | #4

   "Flags" is a term for the individual pieces of counter flashing going up the roof pitch on a wall abutment. From the sounds of it, you need to solder the pieces you're refering to.

   Here's what I use - scroll down to sheet metal tools:

   http://www.sievert.se/us/promatic.htm

   I invented scrolling.

1. 
   putzik | Oct 23, 2004 07:05pm | #7

   Wow --looks like just what I need. Thanks for your help! I take it flags are like step flashing but with a soldered seam instead of being folded up the wall abutment? Pre-tinning sounds like it will make a huge difference. On the seivert web site I am assuming the soldering burner is a separate set-up, not attachable to their auto-ignition set-up with flex hose.

2. 
   putzik | Oct 23, 2004 08:04pm | #8

   One more question for the copper celebrity--if he still has the patience for an ignoramous such as myself. Any recommendations for a portable sheet metal bender? I tried making the one with strap hinges and 2X6--doesn't work so well.

1. 
   seeyou | Oct 23, 2004 08:40pm | #9

   The Seivert setup I use has a 4' hose that hooks up to a 1 lb propane tank or that hose can be disconnected and a 25' hose connected to a 20 lb or larger tank can be attached. The whole setup with the 4' hose, burner, igniter, copper and regulator costs less than $300 at my local distributor. Check your local roofing supply house - they may carry them. I've not had much luck dealing with Seivert directly.

   I invented supply, but not demand.

2. 
   seeyou | Oct 23, 2004 08:46pm | #10

   http://www.malcotools.com/products/metalduct/mb48.htm

   I've never used one of these, but they look like a nice piece of machinery for <4' bending.

   I invented nice.

3. 
   andybuildz | Oct 24, 2004 04:36pm | #15

   green

   same here....all my drip edge copper flashings I bent I popped riveted together. Why on earth would one need to solder them.

   With the W valley flashings I bent, I did no more than lay the uppers over the lowers.....with all the tremendous rains we've had so far..no leaks at all so.....

   On my copper gutters however.....I soldered the downspouts and endcaps the same way I'd solder copper pipe to elbows....using map gas.

   Works just fine

   Be well

   andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!

   http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

1. 
   seeyou | Oct 24, 2004 05:56pm | #16

   I soldered the downspouts and endcaps the same way I'd solder copper pipe to elbows....using map gas.

   Yeah, that works fine. I normally don't like to solder downspout. If it gets clogged, you have to burn it loose to clean it and cloggs are easier to find by observing which joint the h2o sprays out of. Also, if downspout is soldered, a thief can steal the whole thing. If a location is suspect for theft, we make a breakaway joint just out of reach. That way, only the bottom 8' or so has to be replaced.

   I invented cloggs.

2. 
   andybuildz | Oct 24, 2004 06:08pm | #17

   downspouts, meaning the funnels only.The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!

   http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

3. 
   andybuildz | Oct 24, 2004 06:09pm | #18

   what pizzes me off though is that the funnel flanges arent rounder like the gutters I have!!! grrrrrr....pain in the azz

   ####The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!

   http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

2. 
   Hubedube | Oct 23, 2004 11:15pm | #11

   A HOT soldering iron of any kind, (heated by gas, propane oil or a match) but especially a heavy 4 lb copper iron will do it. The heat (hotness) of the iron IS THE KEY. Copper draws a lot of heat. The idea of soldering flashing is not chiefly for the strength, its to SEAL it from any LEAKAGE. Copper rivets will give it strength,.

   If some of the "old tinsmiths" ever seen some of the soldering goings-on of to-day, they'd roll over in their graves.

   Been there, done that.

3. 
   Clay | Oct 23, 2004 01:23pm | #5

   I use a propane torch but it is important to have the right one.  The one that I use is equipped with a hose that allows you to direct the flame effectively ... you cannot just tip the bottle because it affects the flame and screws up the whole works.  I get great results with just Harvey's plumbers flux.  I like to use bar solder ... the wire type does not feed solder to the joint quickly enough.  I had a flat seam - soldered seam roof and tried to use an iron but it was incredibly slow and gave me suspicious results too.  This torch, bar solder and Harvey's flux made sweet work and solid joints in a hurry.  You have more flame control with this torch than with simpler models.  I have bigger and better torches too but this one is just right for jobsite and rooftop use and it is all I need for soldering.  I sanded all my joint areas before fluxing which I believe is important.  Link to my little torch below.

   http://www.bernzomatic.com/bernzomatic/consumer/jhtml/productDetail.jhtml?attributeId=BMBZOPA000002&productId=BM095175

1. 
   seeyou | Oct 23, 2004 02:45pm | #6

   I had a flat seam - soldered seam roof and tried to use an iron but it was incredibly slow and gave me suspicious results too.

   For a flat seam roof you need to pre-tin your joints before assembly. If you didn't have any luck with a soldering copper, you either hadn't accumulated the skill, didn't have the right size coppers or both. Two men using three 5 lb coppers heated with a propane oven solder 3-5 sq of flat seam roof a day for me. Here's a link to a thread on pre-tinning and I think there's some installation pictures farter on.

   http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=34964.1

   I don't allow any of my guys to use an open flame on a roof. You can start a fire below the copper, potentially. We've recently lost a significant historic building and had another damaged by using open flame soldering rigs (not my guys). I recently was working on a court house dome and they were very mindful of our soldering equipment. This has gone off topic. If the original poster is soldering window sill covers, the wood below is probably punky and easily combustible. Open flame is risky.  

   I invented going off topic.

1. 
   Hubedube | Oct 23, 2004 11:26pm | #12

   I,m pleased to see at least you have some proper information on soldering copper

    Having worked on this stuff for over 50 years, I can still get a real chuckle at some of the replys.

    Btw, in a pinch when we ran out of "floss-all" we use to "kill"/cut Muriatic acid with small pieces of Galv (zinc)iron  for a flux, and we also used only bar solder ...50/50

1. 
   Sphere | Oct 23, 2004 11:34pm | #13

   You maynot now know this guy, I live and work in his tutelidge...believe me he knows his stuff..his work is awesome, I am proud to be a part of his team. 

   Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

   Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations. 

    

    

   Edited 10/23/2004 4:57 pm ET by SPHERE

2. 
   Clay | Oct 24, 2004 08:30am | #14

   I am sure that the pretinning is good practice and I didn't do that I did presand and flux though.  I suppose you are right about the open flame hazards I wouldn't trust any of my carpenters with one either.  I have had quite a bit of experience at torching though (I have done quite a lot of jewelry type metalsmithing ... a sideline of mine) and I do trust myself.  Hard soldering sometimes requires an extremely fine feel for the right heat in the right spots and roof soldering was not nearly as challenging. 

   I would guess that my copper was more like a one pounder so that may be why it was ineffective. 

   I was sort of imagining the window sill covers being soldered before application to the wood ... but maybe that is not possible.