Squeaky sub flooring in unfinished house
DawterNature
| Posted in General Discussion on
Would love to know how to remedy squeaky subfloors. Apparently, the first contractor did not use adhesive when putting down Advantek sheets (as many unopened tubes were found on site). No other flooring has been laid yet; in fact interior is basically unfinished. Is there some reasonable method to get glue between joists and Advantek? Please help – this is beyond annoying, every step one takes causes irksome noise! Many thanks.
Replies
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Unless you lift all the sheets you won't get enough glue in there to make a difference.
You could use a subfloor screw (in a standing driver) and get all the sheets tighter.
Here
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Too late for glue. Screws are about the only option you have now. Local rental places my have screw guns or similar to what calvin posted. As you're screwing (every 12" in the field & 6" or less on the edges of each sheet) pull what nails you see that are already loose. Setting these with a hammer will only delay them from working their way back up into your flooring.
Screws.
In addition, you might consider running a circular saw, thin kerf blade, down the seams at butt joints to open a little space between the sheets if it is not already there. I would do this before adding screws -- fewer targets for the blade to hit.
"Ya can do things slow, ya can do things fast, or you can do things half-azzed." This definitely falls into the latter category - they bought the glue and did not used it -- half-azzed!
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
screwing it down is probably the easiest way, but you can glue and re-fasten possibly, but it won't be easy probably.
First, what sort of nail was used? Maybe he was to lazy or ignorant to use glue so that means he may have been to ignorant to use ring shankled nails too. That means it could be possible to drive up on the sheets from underneath and loosen the nails so that you can pull them from above without serious damage to the decking. Then you could use a prybar and shims to create some space to inject glue for 80% of the job. then pull the shims and screw it down.
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Screw them.
First, pull any squeaky nails. If you don't do this, those "shiners" will haunt you.
Floors won't squeak even if they're not glued. You do have to screw them properly though...every 8" min and 6" on the joints.
Back in MI, Pulte would not allow any floors to be glued....and they certainly didn't want any service calls for squeaks. So, it must work or they wouldn't have been doing it for the last ten years that I know of.
FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
It just amazes me how different regions and builders do things differently. Here in Western Colorado there is not a single reputable builder who does not use construction adhesive and ring shanked nails on subfloors. Even the McMansion builders in Aspen, Vail and Beaver Creek gave up screws in favor of ring shank nails several years ago.
Anybody who ever tried to pull out a ring shank nail can attest to their holding power.
Chris
Edited 11/6/2007 7:44 pm ET by fishnskiguy
Thanks for all the info, Folks. Much appreciated. The decking can be reached from below, no interior walls yet. I regret I was ignorant about the work done in building the addition but it rained so blamed much last fall I figured everything was soaked as roof was not on yet. Was only this spring when I returned to site after several months away I realized the floor squeaks, literally, at most every point - cannot walk two steps without noise. I will send this post and all responses to my new, conscientious builder who is not too proud to ask questions and weigh all responses in order to produce the best results possible. Thanks again, everyone, for taking time to answer.
Pulte will not let you put one nail in their floors. They inspect everything and they will make you pull every nail that you put in the floor before they will sign off and pay you.Pultes the only builder in the area that doesn't use glue. Everyone else wants it glued and nailed or glued and screwed. I actually like the idea of just screwing without glue. Repairs are so much simpler if you ever have to lift a section of plywood later on down the road.A properly screwed floor will not squeak. The glue might add a little stiffness to the floor, but they engineer their floors to the specs that they want without the glue. I've seen ring shank nails work themselves loose and squeak...plenty of times. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
Pulte is what? Manufacturer of Advantek, abbreviation for something?
A large (HUGE) national homebuilding company.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Pulte is the largest builder in the US. They study everything and one of their major goals is to eliminate callbacks. They know that glue is responsible for callbacks, if it's not applied properly. They also know that a lot of glued plywood is done incorrectly, resulting in callbacks. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
Why does glue cause callbacks?
Edit:
My guess is that it has as much to do with saving money as anything else. Probably about $40 or $50 a house. Then they require their framing sub to screw the floor sheathing, shifting any responsibility to the sub.
I don't know a lot about Pulte but interviewed with them some time back. (desperate times call for desperate measures) :-) During the hour plus interview I learned that their superintendents (schedulers) had seemingly no responsibility for the house once it was complete. If I remember correctly, once the house is complete, the super walks the house with a quality control guy (punch guy) and that is it. Again, if I remember correctly in this particular neighborhood they had twice as many punch guys as supers and I heard one mention something about a 50 ticket backlog. Sounds to me like they kinda use the HO as the quality control, and sure they come and fix whatever, but my idea is do it right and pay attention so there are virtually no callbacks rather relying on great service fixing stuff all day every day.
Edited 11/8/2007 5:16 pm ET by Matt
It really isn't the glue that causes squeaks. It is using it inappropriately. (the newer PL Premium has eliminated half the problems because it expands to fill gaps and works well in damp.)not using enough glue
trying to use it on wet lumber
using the wrong adhesive
depending to much on the glue and not nailing enough
getting careless and glueing and tacking it one day, then going back to nail it off the next dayThat is all about hacks taking shortcuts or not understanding the adhesive and its properties
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Precisely!In a perfect world, every detail about gluing ply to the joists would be met. In the real world, framers work at 10 below. They have mud on the joists. They have ice on the joists. They get sawdust on the glue. Pulte has to deal with the reality of thousands of framers, so they create systems that work for them. They also do engineering studies and know how much value a product like glue actually delivers. At some point the serviceablity factor weighs in. I don't have any problem installing the plywood either way. I'd pass on glue for myself because I know the floor won't squeak if it's fastened properly, with screws (no nails anywhere). Historically, subfloors were layed without glue and when the lumber companies started pushing the "miracle one floor" system that "eliminates squeaks" they conveniently included glue as part of the system. In fact, when we first started using the t and g one floor system we were instructed to glue the toungues and grooves to protect the warranty. They also claimed that it added strength and you could span greater distances. I don't see any of that talk around anymore. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
thanks for input. I understand that Advantek states glue must be used with their product and the lumber supplier included tubes of adhesive with the sheets. Let's hope screws do the trick.
Question #1 -- What's under this? Do you have access from below, or is there a sheetrocked ceiling downstairs?
-- J.S.
I think she said all unfinished, John.
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check to make sure there's adequate bridging too
"I'm not responsible for my actions."
A lot of people, including me, feel that bridging causes squeeks.
I would not allow bridging in any house that I built or lived in. If a framer had it all cut (there wouldn't be any stock) and nailed in, I'd make him take it all out. If I wanted stiffer floors, I'd size up on the joist. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
Often times squeaks come from where interior walls bottom plates are nailed down to the subfloor (and not into the floor framing below). The floor deflects under the interior partition, and the partition's hold-down nails squeak. If the sheetrock isn't on the walls yet, check for this, and if necessary nail the partitions into the framing and then pull the offending nails. If a partition isn't over any framing (floor joist) screw it down to the subfloor, and again pull the squeaky nails.
That is a common source of squeaks. We were the go to framing crew to solve squeak issues. We never told the super what we did and we never fixed them when anyone was in the house with us. We'd bring in a sawzall and run the saw under the partition where the nail was. Instant quiet. We wouldn't renail anything. It usually was only one nail. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
Come to think of it I actually have one house that has a single, but nasty one. I'm pretty sure it's a partition to floor connection. House is complete with all finished floor, (carpet) etc. I wonder if driving a shim in tight under the wall would work? It's pertty difficult to accesswith no access from underneath. I guess I could do the sawsall thing, but the carpet would have to come up. Thoughts?
The carpet does not have to come up. I like to use an 11" blade which will bend quite a bit. Slip it in sideways and let her rip. It's a one minute fix that works. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
Thanks much bud...
Thanks for info but I wonder if your method would work in such a large area - entire 2nd floor of 20X26 addition. Probably first floor, same square footage, is also prone to squeaks. Is there any reasonable way to alleviate squeaks b4 interior partitions put in this month? Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
Well, for starters I would screw down (not with drywall screws-they'll snap and that won't help) a couple of the worst pcs of advantec and then walk over it. If it don't squeek, do the rest. If it does squeek, plan B.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I agree with the gallery on this one, screws are the best recipe.
When I frame an interior wall I put only as many nails as needed to keep the plate on the line. This is for walls that fall in between joists.
I thought about this for a long time one day, why am I trying to nail a 2x to sheathing when I nail sheathing to 2x's all day long? Kind of backwards I thought.
I now go back and nail the plate from underneath, through the sheathing into the 2x bottom plate. With RS 8's the wall never moves or makes a sound.
It only takes a few minutes extra, but makes a much more solid connection.
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
Gluing the pars works for us. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
I've thought about doing that, the deal breaker for me as a sub was if there was any left to use on interior walls. Normally I would end up with a half a tube left over and that usually just got pitched.
I carried them around for a while until I had to chisel the exploded tubes out of the truck.
I glued an outside wall after I had read your posting about it. Then due to a change order that wall got taken down and bumped out 2' over the porch. The subfloor didn't make it, after beating the plate loose.
Change orders are very popular during framing here, enough so I spell out rates for them in contracts. Otherwise I would order another case of glue per frame.
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
LOL we know about moving pars after they're glued!!! It's not a pretty sight. In our neck of the woods the builders supplied the glue. When we are subbing for homeowners (we started doing that in recent years) we supply the glue. Even though change orders are a bit more involved, I still like the idea of gluing the plates. I like knowing that we've sealed the air and bugs out and I like knowing the interior partitions won't develop a squeak. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
The builders I sub from supply glue, but by the time the subfloor is done we have nothing left. I have a huge inventory of left over nails and thats why I try to use them up in the punchlist stage. A back nailed interior plate is a pain to move, but not impossible if it's cut loose as you describe.
I asked our insulation sub to start foaming under the plates is there was any gap, if there is not a gap they silicone the plate to the floor. Makes for a tight seal.
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.