I’ve got a run of scissor (switch back) stairs from basement up to 2nd floor. On plan it shows a wall in center of stair well from basement to main floor, from main floor to 2nd floor it shows open stairwell.
on the plan it it also shows that the lower set of stairs are equal tread width on either side of the wall. for the uper stair runs it shows equal tread width with about 3″ space between the top 2 runs. This doesn’t make sense to me because then where would the top of the 2×4 wall terminate.
what I’ve concluded is that it should terminte underneath the stringer of the 1st run going up to the second floor. however that thows a wrench into the tread widths, making the 1st run from the main floor to landing 3 1/2″ wider than the last run from landing to top floor.
I decided to make these to runs of stairs equal width with no space in center. the center wall from basement will go beneath the stringer as planned however the lower set of stairs will have offset widths instead of the top. I think this will be better because the 2 different widths of stairs runs will be on either side of the basement wall. as opposed to the section that is open.
am I on the right track. I’ve tried to see how the stairs could be built according to plan but I just can’t see it – am I missing something. Also with no space inbetween the top 2 runs anything I should be taking into consideration as far as drywall, trim, posts and railings go?
Thnks for any input
Edited 10/11/2005 1:08 am ET by alrightythen
Edited 10/11/2005 3:11 pm ET by alrightythen
Replies
Really... this is just a bump...
Are you framing and finishing the steps, or what? I gather they are not shop built steps.
I am framing and will be probably be finishing. they are not shop built.
Here are some thoughts more from a builder's point of view than from that of a carpenter:
>> I am framing and will be probably be finishing. they are not shop built. << You are on the right track by getting this figured out now... If you go to finish them and they aren't laid out right, you are gonna have a mess. Building interior stairs, start to finish is carpentry-312, if you get my drift... BTW - It really sounds like there is no issue with the basement stairs since they are fully enclosed. Probably just paint grade and going to be carpeted, or maybe just left bare for later finishing. Re the 1st - 2nd floor set, be sure to plan carefully for the finished covering on both the floors and stair treads. My initial impression was the same as BiteMe's (I think) which is open riser on one side of both of the 1st to 2nd floor sets. What I think you need is to find a picture of a finished set of steps that look like what you are building and/or get a good finish carpenter to look at what you have and make recommendations. There are some of the latter here (BiteMe?), but you are gonna have to get some graphic information posted here to get quality recommendations. Also, get yourself a stair parts book from Coffman ( http://www.coffmanstairs.com/ )or whatever brand you are going to use and use that to help formulate a picture of your finished product in your mind and to form a plan of what finish components you will use to get there. Then you will know exactly what the carriage needs to look like.
Another thought is you could go to a place that supplies shop built stairs, get them to access the situation, and give you a price for the upstairs setup. Even if you don't go in that direction, you could get some valuable insight from whoever you sit down with (assuming you go to some place other than a Home Center - ie building supply, etc). Generally, shop built stairs price out pretty competivily with site built stairs - For a house I'm building right now, my trim carp has given me a price of $1320, labor only, for the stairs and ~ 22' of rails - everything is stain grade except the risers which will be painted. This is just a strait set of steps, but does have volutes, up easings, etc, etc. You gotta figure that he is not charging that figure and planning it to take him 3 hours... By the time I get the materials, I could easily have $2200 into them.
An elementary Q: - what is the total rise, finished floor to finished floor: basement to first floor? First floor to 2nd floor?
Thanks for great input from builders view, as in my case I am wearing all the hats. And I know with stairs lots of things to figure out and make sure you got right or can lead to night mares later. I was almost about to rip out my landing when I realized I had it laid out differently than the cross section. Luckily after pulling about 3 nails I decided Hey I'd better make sure it's drawn right. Glad I checked cuz If I had moved the landing it would have created a huge mess.
I did decide, what you guys have are saying about leaving the top runs open. really for the stair well as a whole to look good it has to be that way, in that sense I think it was designed well. The only issue I am really left with is wether I need space inbetween the top 2 runs. the 2 runs will not be touching as the lower run is hanging off the landing and the top run is sitting on the landing. But for drywall and trim, what will it look like with them visually overlapping.
good idea about getting some pictures of simular stairs and/or talking to stair/trim shop, I'll have to see what I can do.
I'm going to have to see if I can't get hold of a digital camera. I'm sure my wife could help me with the computer part. she's the computer genius in the family.
For open-riser stairs to work, you'll need enough tread width so that when your balustrade and railings are in place, you have at least the code minimum between railing and adjacent wall.
The stair parts catalogs, and websites, can show you how the post arrangements will go at the intermediate landing of the open-riser upper flights, so you can see if things are designed and built correctly.
The only issue I see, other than this question of width, is that your first flight up, going upstairs, will need to be wider by a wall width than the second flight. Its inside stringer is bearing on that wall below.
Staircases have to be planned from the outside in, that is, the entire finish arrangement is schemed, then the structure is designed and built so that the finish can be achieved. You have to think through everything . . . skirting, balustrades, supports for anchoring newels, etc.
"The only issue I see, other than this question of width, is that your first flight up, going upstairs, will need to be wider by a wall width than the second flight. Its inside stringer is bearing on that wall below."
Stinger has this absolutely correct and this is the question of your original post. If you want the widths of the upper runs to be the same, you will need to move the wall between the runs of the basement stairs. There is no practical reason to do this and it will make the upper basement run narrower, but it is possible. The most reasonable solution is to have the top run a little wider.
Couldn't that flight be carried by a flush beam that is supported by that wall ( or dropped, depending on the headroom over the basement flight). Headroom may also be why the landing is drawn "wrong."I can only find an old pic of a switchback set with winders. Newel and baluster placement can be wiggled to get the code separation, but sometimes you can get lucky enough so the rail doesn't pass an overhanging return "what's in a name?" d'oh!
head room doesn't look to be a problem. But I know that something is drawn wrong because the cross section contradicts the floor plan. floor plan shows 8 and 8. and there is no way the other scenario will work becaus putting 9 risers on the lower run will place the bottom tread foward of the opening into the kithen. as it is now I'm about 2" back of the opening.
cross section contradicts the floor plan
Thats not unusual Alrightythen. I think someone created a generic cross section and they've used it on every set of plans that I've looked at.
We rarely build the stairs like the plans show. Instead, we build them like the trimmer wants/needs them to accomplish the most pleasing rail system. You need to understand that the designer/architect/drawer has never actually built a set of stairs and rails and usually never goes back and checks the actual installation and compares it to their "vision".
We once had an architect show up on one of our jobs, so he could measure and copy our work, so he could put in on paper and get the rest of the houses in the sub done right. He didn't have the foggiest idea before he saw what we did, on how to accomplish what needed to be done. He was an arrogant basterd. He was also very high priced but he didn't have a clue. The "detailed drawing" that we were given before we re-engineered it was a f'in joke.
blue
hey, blue ... you said "f'in"...................Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, who let you out of the tavern?
F'in jerks!
blue
"generic" is what I concluded.
I once saw on 'This Old House' where a bunch of harvard archy students had to build a house as part of their schooling. it was part of a project for low income housing.
I think every archy should pick up a hammer at least once.
My goal is to get it right now, rather then run into problems come time to trim.
"I think every archy should pick up a hammer at least once."
That's part of the problem. You have to work on a job site for years to get a good handle on what is going on. What happens with many of these design professionals is they work a few summers while in school and think they know how to build. I've had preconstruction meetings with these guys to discuss plans and have them use the phrase "the reason I built it like that is..." All the while I'm thinking "you didn't build sheeet" (or at least not on this house). Architects are great for coming up with innovative and functional designs that are pleasing to the eye. At least in residential construction the builder/carpenter/tradesmen is the person who's job it ends up being to translate ideas into reality. What's in the plans is a concept of what needs to be done (although normally they at least get the number of risers right... I'm thinking it's somewhat different in commercial since I see a million different methods being used but don't really know. I think we would all do well to listen to people like blue as to what a set of plans need to contain (at least from a framing standpoint), so that when we are having a plan set developed we will end up with the right mix of detail and conciseness.
The wall under the stringer is not there to carry the flight of stairs (for this you don't need the wall at all.) but to separate the basement space from the main living space.
Schelling, I've done dozens of stairs just like what you describe. The key is to get the proper distance for the rail guy. Call the trimmer and find out what he needs.
blue
Then I'm missing why one flight needed to be wider, or narrower. There's a point load at the bottom of the stringer, I thought that's what you talking about...misunderstanding is my strong suit<G> "what's in a name?" d'oh!
with the basement runs being closed and the upper runs being open. what makes a side wider then the other is the space the wall takes.
if the 2 upper runs are equal, then one of the lower runs will be 3 1/2" wider. If you center the wall from basement so lower runs are equal, then one of the upper runs will be 3 1/2" wider.
to me it makes more sense to have the runs that aren't visible so much at the same time a different width rather than the runs that are used constantly every day and because they are open, the difference in width is more visible.
In my case the only way to have the top 2 runs equal width was to have them meet in the center. But my concern with that is what the finishing details will look like. visually they will overlap. so that puts me at also have the top runs at different widths so that I can get some space inbetween the 2 runs.
Personally I don't think the stairwell was designed wide enough. when it was designed I doubt any thought was put into the fact that the the 2x4 wall throws a wrench into things when there is an open set above. I will know for next time to look for that and change it before the hole is dug.
as for now I'm going to take the advice of talking to stair trim company advise on the trim issues.
Thick as a brick, that's me. Ok, ya got a stairwell from the basement to the 2nd fl., wall between the two 180° flights from basement to 1st fl. why not frame the 1st to 2nd floor flights like there was a wall between them , only leave it out? I've done a few of these, problem is getting the flights too close. Off the rack handrail fittings won't work...gotta get real creative.I've got a feeling everyone's talking about the same thing, and they're just not explaining it to me<G> "what's in a name?" d'oh!
"why not frame the 1st to 2nd floor flights like there was a wall between them , only leave it out?"
well you could, but.....
if the wall below is centered ( which it is on drawing) the 1st run from 1st to 2nd floor has to sit on top of the wall. I could run it up and and cap it but then the 2 top runs would have different railing details.
to make the top flights equal width you have to shift the wall below until you have the spacing that you want above. Because of my over all width, the best I can do with the run that sits atop the wall is to place the outside stringer at center. If I make it any shorter in width the stairs directly below will be less than 36" after drywall ( as it is, I'll actually have to rip my 2x4's to 3" to make the wall work with the bottom stairs)
now with that all established, I'm left with the final run to 2nd floor do I make it equal with 1st run to 2nd floor and have the outside stringer at center as well or push it over to give me that space.
Iv'e got the 1st run ( to 2nd floor ) built, because I know that has to be where it is. I played around with the cut stinger for the last run and set it at center. I decided that it will look stupid once trimmed out and that there should be some space there even if it makes the top 2 runs different lengh as well as the lower runs. question is how much. as was mentioned by an earlier reply I have to leave enough room inbetween to account for drywall and the ballusters. I would like to have a few inches inbetween the runs but I don't think I'll be able to get quite that. I 'll have to have someone look at it and find out.
Edited 10/14/2005 1:32 am ET by alrightythen
if the wall below is centered ( which it is on drawing)
Okay...enough with what's on the drawing. It's time to make it work in the field.
blue
I figured that out long ago. the drawing very clearly aint gonna work.
In case you have not seen this, you may want to take a look. It's a short booklet on stair building codes: http://www.arcways.com/IRC2000a.pdf
If I'm seeing this right, and that doesn't happen all that often<G>, the set from the 1st fl to 2nd fl was drawn to have open risers and a continuous handrail, with a landing for a 180° turn. Am I close?
Are you the homeowner or someone contracted to do the stairs?
Can you put up some pics of the plans? And, aren't there any sections of the stairs?
Chock full of questions, ain't I?
yes you are...and good questions too.
you are actally seeing it bang on! I was hoping I would be able to explain it.
there is a cross section but with little to no detail. and it is actually drawn wrong which threw me for a loop. I had laid out the stairs to what made sense to me. landing centered between the 2 runs.(we're talking upper set of stairs-lower set will be built after basment slab is poured) then when I looked at the cross section I counted 7 risers for the top run; the lower run was not drawn in so by subtraction that leaves 9 for bottom run. I had planned on 8 and 8. Looking at the floor plan it shows 8 and 8. I checked things out with my own calculations and 8 and 8 is what works.
I am an owner builder.
I would put up pictures 'cept that is beyond my computer skills.
Assuming that the stairs to the basement are closed off to the first floor living space, you need to run the wall up to the bottom of the stringer that actually goes up to the second floor. At this point you could make this last run of stairs wider to fill the opening. This would leave an exposed stringer with balusters going from the treads to a railing.
This would leave the top treads a little longer that the lower run but this would not be noticeable. If you want to keep the treads the same length and make the top run easier to finish, run the wall up a little higher than the nosing of the treads and put a cap on it. The balusters will then run from this cap to the railing.
Schelling, that simplifies the skirting and balustrade for the flight up to the landing, but isn't the top flight still an open-riser arrangement, and won't its balustrade look different from the one adjacent?
I would probably treat both runs the same way with both stringers open or both closed. I would ask the homeowners what they wanted, give them a price for each possibility, and do what they wanted. You can make a nice job of it either way.
I follow what you said and the capped wall I know makes it easier. But I do agree with stingers assesment- which brings us to your second comment.
ony trouble with that is, closed all the way to 2nd floor ceiling will ruin the look of the stair well. it is on an outside wall and has lots of windows.
to have it open all the way to basement won't work beause the basement will be a suite so it needs be closed off - there will be a door at bottom.
so it makes sense the way it was designed over all, it's working out the details that is the tricky part.