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Anyone have any experiences good or bad with stapling composite 3-tab shingles?
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Hi tp,
I have experiance with staples(I assume you mean 15/16" or 1" air staples) In the late seventies, to be competetive in the new construction roofing market, you had to go with staples(this was before coil nailers were available). I was very careful to adjust air pressure to the site conditions. On hot days the staples can very easily shoot all or partially through the shingle. This can change from morning til afternoon. Also it is critical to keep the staple parallel to the roof deck, and touch the gun without slamming it down.
To get to the point, when coil nailers became available(early 80's) I switched to them because they are much more forgiving on all these points.I do A LOT of repairs to poorly installed stapled roofs. So I suggest staying away from them completely.
John
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I agree with John. Have done a lot of shingle blow offs over the years, and it's usually the shingles that were stapled. Not enough attention was given to the air pressure and accuracy of where the staple went. Coil nails is the only way to go!!
Verl Kauffman
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I agree with JRS and Verl . Its to easy to end up with a high staple corner if you dont keep the nose flat to the roof . I've also seen puckered shingles when the shingle was moved slightly after the first staple was shot . Chuck
*Staples do not meet code in my area.
*I find that if I am not real carefull the Coil Nails will also damage shingles if shingles are hot OR if felt is not laying VERY flat.Don't know anyone who would still use staplesGood Luck,Stephen
*I am pretty sure it's illegal to staple comp here in Western Washington. Even if I could, I wouldn't. It's just too easy for the staple to "cut" the shingle, either during installation, or in a high wind later. I agree with the previous comments about replacing many stapled shingles over the years. Hey - have you guys ever seen the forerunner to the pneumatic stapler? It looks kind of like a big tacker hammer, wider and heavier built to take heavier staples. I still have mine in it's original box. Antique? Rellic. - jb
*Ditto on what Jim had to say. Staples are not code in SoCal. They do not grip as well as galvinized roofing nails, and because they have no head, they cut into the product. I would never staple a roof. We hand nail with galvinized roofing nails.
*I use pressure treated oak pegs, hand drill all holes and set pegs only with malletts created using non carbon based matter...near the stream,aj
*AJ, do you line up the grain?
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You've shaken loose a tidbit from the cobwebs in my memory. I distinctly remember my dad an his crews using those jumbo hammer tackers when I was a kid. I think he might even have a couple of those relics laying with the junk under his workbench.
I was just a young whippersnapper so I can't remember ever actually swinging those contraptions. Did they effectively drive the staple in? Seems to me you'd need one hell of a whallop to drive a staple that size home. I'd bet you'd have a "noodly" forearm by days end.
Thanks for the flashback. Next time I think about it I'll look in dad's junkpile (excuse me, his bench) and see if I can't scare one up.
Dick Streff
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Staples are out here too. After seeing the damage hurricane Hugo did I would never use them.
*The grain is carfully matched using a fine jewelers pair of magnifying bifocals and a portable electron microscope borrowed from my foreman's Uncle Vinny...Truth be told I only own two roofing air staplers and two of the old Bostitch slap roofing staplers...The slap staplers still are my favorite tool as they are cordless and it's hard to match the speed with hand nailing thought now that I build Tennis courts that have 1,956 nails per court holding the lines in the clay. I may be a faster roofer...My shingle wrappers say that stapling is OK and go on to point out that in a high wind location which is rare for me, that each tab should receive two fasteners...I have never built a home that wasn't surrounded by trees on most sides so blow off hasn't been a problem or a concern....Our biggest problem is when we have more than a foot of light snow remaining on roofs and forming an isulating layer where water ponding develops and leaks into the structure near woodstove pipes, eaves or whatever...I have had few problems over the years and none related to staples...The Last roofing disaster I did see invloved an air nailed roof where the nails were driven on angle and or not fully set....On a twenty square roof there must have been at least ten nails coming through the topping shingle per every square....I asked the owner and the friend who did the job about it and they both just did't have much to say other than it was cold working conditions and they were glad to just get the job done!!....I guess I just don't understand that philosphy yet, but maybe my day will come...Near the stream using staples, nails, and grain matched pegs,aj
*These nails were driven poorly period...The gun user was a just do it type.aj
*Hi Tp,If I'm not mistaken, a lot of shingle manufacturers won't warrant their product if installed with staples.....yet another reason to stay away from using staples.Davo
*Davo,Name two manufacturers.aj
*Hello TP,I have seen bad roofing jobs through out my career in construction. I recommend actually reading 1 of those wrappers that encompasses every known bundle of on grade shingles. A call too the local building inspector will alert you to any unique considerations. Whether nailed or stapled shingles installed between fall and spring may not seal adequately for a `bad' storm or other high winds. I've averaged 1-1/2 roofs for the last twenty five years. For the last ten I have always used pneumatically installed 1" crown staples . I also have a strong preference for tearing off the old roof even if it only has 1 layer. My pet peeve with Portland OR area roofers is their insistence on installing rake metal on top of the shingles. Lastly I strongly believe that architectural shingles are a better investment. Yes I am opinionated about roofing. Joe
*What is rake metal? And why is it installed on top of the shingles? Is this the drip edge that is put over the first layer of shingles before the second layer? Or something else?Rich Beckman
*Dear Rich, Rake metal is any flashing metal install along the edge of a roof that goes uphill or downhill. In years past it was installed on top of the shingles to reduce blow-offs that started along the edge. In my opinion an additional layer of roofing would be preceded by a piece of rake metal that covered the old roof and sheeting to direct water to the outside of the structure. Rake metal on top of the top layer of shingles alows capillary action of water into the various layers underneath. The wife calls.Joe D.
*Joe,Thanks. I don't think I've ever seen that.Rich Beckman
*Rich, If I understand his post correctly we do exactly what bugs him.In a re roof situation we cut back the rake shingles and install extra wide drip edge on rake OVER original roofing,or we install a commonly available material called 10/10 in much the same fashion. This is done as a trim detail to cover the raw edge of the original roofing. This gives the entire perimeter of the roof a neat ,tidy appearance.Regaurding capillary action ....In the hundreds of roofs I have done I have never seen a roof leak originate from the rake.I fail to see why rake metal between shingle layers would be any more subject to capillary action than rake metal under shingles and over plywood(or plywood and felt).In fact,since the 2 layers of shingles are both rough surfaces I would think capillary action less likely than between 2 smooth flat surfaces such as metal and plywood on the original roof.this is what works well in my area,however,If you lived in that part of the country currently enjoying 150 mph winds and sideways rain all bets are off.(of course your roof is probably being blown off over the whole neighborhood so the presence of rakemetal is now irrelevant.Good Luck,Stephen
*Stephen,Perhaps your reading of Joe's post is correct, in which case it makes perfect sense. But I still think Joe is not saying that:>Rake metal on top of the top layer of shingles alows capillary action of water into the various layers underneath...In years past it was installed on top of the shingles to reduce blow-offs that started along the edge.This really sounds to me like the roof was finished with the rake metali on top ofthe shingles. And that, I have never seen.Rich Beckman
*Yes Rich wins the carefull reading award! Stephen I also like that neat and tidy appearence created by covering all the old layers of roofing with rake metal prior to installation of the new shingles. In fact the leaks caused by rake metal on top of shingles are only big enough to dampen and then rot facia, barge rafters and the edge of the sheeting, not enough to show up to casual inspection so the homeowners never know there is a problem. If this doesn't clarify what I'm talking about one can always read a shingle bundle wrapper and look at the pictures the manufactors print on the wrappers.Joe
*Joe and Rich,You are correct...I did misread the post.I have never seen drip edge on top of the latest layer of shingles,but I very often find it on top of the gable edge of roll roofing on low pitch roofs. These roofs show no ill effects following tear off(as you know all is exposed at this time and nothing hidden).I will stand by my statement that I have never found a roof leak that was traced to the gable edge.I am definitely not the largest roofing contractor in my area but over the years I have roofed hundreds of houses and completed probably thousands of roof repairs. The majority of these jobs involve roof tear-off and all decking and rakes are visible.The installation of drip eddge between layers is not only common but the prefered technique here.Having torn off so many of these old roofs I am confident if there was a problem with this method I would have seen evidence of it first hand.Since I have found no evidence,In my area, of all horroriffic possibilities you envision ,perhaps there is some other cause at play in your area.good luck,Stephen
*Hey Adirondack Jack,Owens Corning, and Celotex. Haven't read the label on the bundles lately, but our local lumber yard always told us that using staples would void the warranty. We have strong winds here, so why tempt Mother Nature? Always used a coil nailer and have had good success with it. Not about to change now.Davo
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tpbishop:
Two words: Stay away!
Ask anyone in florida after Hurricane Andrew went through whether they would recommend staples. Bet 95 out of a 100 would have nailed rather than stapled if they knew what would happen with staples. Loose a roof and you let water saturate the inside of the house!
You may not ever have a wind like that one, but the performance of staples in Florida indicates that the method is flawed.
Dave Matheny
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Hearsay is rediculous!!!!!!! Read me the part on the wrapper that says no staples....They work really well in less than huricane winds.....
I think you are wrong about Owens Corning,
aj
*Hear Hear,Or is it Here, Here? Well its not heresay so, it must be hear, hear, right on Jack. I 'm going to put OC on my roof late this week. I'll read the bundle and do what it says. I want to get em on while it's still hot out (90 deg. today). I figure one out of every million shingle bundle wrappers gets read. I'll read one later this week. Planning on a tear-off and #15 ASTM felt on my 14 year old 4/12 ranch house roof. Carefull monitoring of both fastner placement and synching pressure of the fastners will be done here. Or perhaps I'll have to use a torque wrench for all those nuts and lock washers on the inside of that attic. Seriously, the biggest question for me is the venting issues. One year ago these were non-issues for me but, you guys are making me question things I thought I knew. Well back to the archives before I say a peep more. Joe
*Every shingle mfr. that I know of permits staples. This includes O.C., Celotex, Certainteed, GAF, Elk, Atlas, Tamko, the only shingles that don't permit them are T-Locks(which I don't use anyway) The question was are staples OK. I guess the answer would have to be yes, if OK is all you are looking for. Every mfr. is very specific and particular on fastener placement and position for staples. They have to be driven snug, but not overdriven(which is very easy to do, especially in 90 deg. weather). They must be parallel to the shingle's long dimension, and not leave the staple's corner up(which means you must keep your gun perpendicular to the shingle on two axes).Coil nailers are much more forgiving on all these points in addition to having a nice large head. If you are looking for a superior fastener that is easier to install, and will never rust away(yes, I have seen many staples that were rusted through) then nails are the way to go. If you are looking for just OK then go ahead and use staples.John
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Anyone have any experiences good or bad with stapling composite 3-tab shingles?