I have a few days off coming up, and my mom has been asking me to build a deck. It will be low-level (as close to the ground as possible), a composite decking, and about 16’x19′, attached to the house. Any hints or words of advice before I get started? Thanks.
Young, poor, and eager to learn
Edited 2/12/2004 7:05:02 PM ET by SBerruezo
Replies
You may need more than a few days.
Got the box joist located yet? Researched the hangers and wood interface? Done the drawings? Figured out where to put the posts, how deep, how many?
Drawings done? etc.
Quality repairs for your home.
Aaron the Handyman
Vancouver, Canada
sub it out.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
1. Don't attach it to the house, make it self-supporting.
2. Check with the city for permit requirements. Even though it is close to the ground, if the ground slopes and the drop is more than about 30" (depends on where you are) you might need a handrail. Down here, if it is not attached to the house, and less than a certain size, no permit is required.
3. Does composite mean trex or similar? Note that the allowable span for trex is less than real wood.
4. Buy a Makita cordless impact driver for setting the screws and lag bolts.
5. Figue it will take twice as long and cost twice as much as what you Mom has allowed.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
The craftsman formerly known as elCid
You're a good son.
Is there septic back there? Any other buried objects?
Who will dig the footings? How deep is the frost line? (Bigfoots are a good choice)
Good luck, add a few days to the estimate.
Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
One other thing I remembered is that my mom, in order to keep it close to the ground, would like to use 2x6s for the frame work. She figured that since the joists will only be 12-16'' apart, that it would be plenty strong. I haven't seen anything in the pamphlets and stuff that state what size 2x to use. I really don't have a frost line here. We only get frost maybe a handful of days a year (Big bonus of the Wine Valley). The composite does mean stuff like Trex and Weatherbest. I will probably be digging everything. My mom has done most all the plans, and she wants the beams practically on the piers(with the strongtie, of course). And wouldn't anchoring it to the house not make it quite as stable? More of a floating type feeling? Or with the height, will it not matter...Thanks again
Young, poor, and eager to learn
OK, I'll let Pro Deck or the other sharpies weigh in here, but the joist dimension depends on the span it will be asked to support. That is, the distance between the beams it is attached to. Usually, they are larger, and the beams are larger than that, and doubled r tripled in some cases. Many other details count as well.
Generally, many folks here like to keep the deck seperate from the house as attaching it invites water intrusion problems.
Often, your supplier can lend a hand with the design of the structure, and knows what code requirements may exist that are unique to your area. A good supplier relationship can go a long way.
Also, many (most? all?) munincipalities will consider this a project that a permit is required for....which will require a whole bunch of things from you, the first is usually a plan of your intent. Perhaps a call to city hall might be in order....
Good luck!Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
Just to show you what good guys we here at BT are, I designed you a deck per your specs. Or maybe I just need to get a life... 16'x19' out of 2x6s as you specified. Drawing attached. I drew it so that 16' deck boards could be used. The number of footing shown is minimal - or you could maybe use just solid cinderblocks - 4"x8"x16" - your metal brackets would just sit on top of them. It is drawn not attached to the house. There is no reason to attach it, other than maybe 2 lag bolts just to hold it there in place. Holes in house = water intrusion (as previously stated). Set the deck walking surface 4" below the door threshold. That way rain water won't splash up on the door and threshold so much. Now, you get to listen for my rhetoric...
First - I'd maybe give a quick bid on this job of $5500. No railings or steps. That might be 1/2 labor and 1/2 materials. BTW - I don't make $2750 in a "couple of days". It might take you a couple a days just to dig the holes (depending on your soil and how deep they need to be). You will be a whole day just screwing down all the deck boards. This is a huge favor. On the other hand, I can't think of one favor I did for my mom that I regretted... God rest her soul.
Secondly, I would not build anything like this purely out of 2x6s, or at least not the girders (beams). Also, letting your "customer" design the structure (specify 2x6s) is a mistake. Unless they happen to be a structural engineer, architect, builder or at least a well expierenced carpenter.
Third, building an on ground deck is not wise. The opportunity for rot is greatly increased, and I'm sure the framing would rot out long before the composite deck boards gave out. Plus, you have all that dead space under there where a dead animal could end up, rodents, bees, or whatever.
Build a paver patio. Makes much more sense than an on-ground deck. First excavate away any soft dirt. Lay down a base of crusher run (or whatever they call it in your area). It's the fines mixed with various sized rock up to about 1". Then enclose the perimeter with PT 6x6s. Nail the joints together with some big gal. nails and stake the whole box down to the ground with pieces of rebar driven through holes in the 6x6s. Add about 3.5" of fill - crusher-run gravel. Then ad a 1" layer of screenings. It's like sand made out of stone. Mix some cement, mortar, or whatever with the screenings - dry, if you like. It will harden later when it gets wet. Now lay brick or concrete pavers. Rent a vibratory plate compactor to compact your lifts (layers) of gravel, and then when the pavers are laid, spread a thin layer of regular sand over them and run the plate compactor over them. The patio will be about 2/3s to 3/4s the cost of the deck, but about the same amount of work.
Also, a patio probably won't require a permit.
Get your mom to look at this entire thread. Print it out if you have to.
Edited 2/11/2004 8:05:39 AM ET by DIRISHINME
Let me try the attachment again...
Matt
Matt:
I like your drawing. Can you tell me what software you used to render it?
Thanks!
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
What a nice guy. That's the spirit I think Breaktime is supposed to be about. To many times I see people to quick to say just search for it, 'cause were tired about, been done go away.
Obviously there are good questions to ask before giving quick answers. The first thing tho is encouragement to novices when it's safe to give. Like this deck, it's on the ground and there is few hazards for a newbie and all glory for him to make mom proud.
Only offer I have is here in Okla. we call a free utilities service that comes out and marks where everything is. Septic question is good but knowing where that electricle and gas service is before you drop that HD rented power auger is better.
Good work Dirishinme
To echo several of the other comments: The first step in a project like this should be to contact your local building official. Starting work without doing so can lead to all sorts of problems. You could get a stop-work order and fine, or they could make you tear it out. Even if you don't get caught now, it could be a problem later when your mom tries to sell the house. There may be unseen hazards like septic systems, underground utilities and property line set-back requirements.
I suggest you do this legwork first, and then come back to Breaktime. Many of us here would love to offer our (often varying and conflicting) opinions.
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
I am kinda suprised... nobody got into the Pressure treated wood, eating nails and strongties thing... use stainless fastners
Frame your Trex at 12" on center. Span your 2x6 joists 6'.
How high is it from the bottom of your door sill to the ground?
Are you building this over a patio?
A permit shouldn't be required if you are below 30" abouve the ground. It is still a good idea to check with your building department.
Most of all have fun!
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
Thanks for all the input...Latest update is Mom found out no permit is required. The plans we had were nearly identical to DIRISHINME's plans. From the sill to the ground (where I dug to) is about 10-11". I wanted to keep at least 2-3" air space between the ground and the underneath the joists. Is this enough to prevent rot? With the ledger against the house, for those that say freestanding, just butt it up and let it be? How far beneath the sill does the deck have to be? The only deck experience I've had was helping a guy do a Ipe deck (beautiful stuff). He did pretty much all the framing, I just did what he said and put down the decking. I'm sure I it will take more than a few days, I would just love to get the framing done all at once. Until I can remember my next questions, thanks to all.
Young, poor, and eager to learn
I am a bit surprised that no permit is required... I think it's reasonable to say that a deck that low has little safety implications though. Sorry - I don't know what you mean when you say "sill". Do you mean the mud sill, which is the board below the rim joist of the floor system (on a crawlspace or basement house) (or maybe it's a slab on grade?) , or do you mean the threshold of the door. Anyway, the walking surface should be about 4" below the door threshold to keep rain water from splashing on the door and getting under the threshold so much.
As far as 2"-3" of spacing off the ground, I don't know what the moisture/climate conditions are like where you live, but for a damp climate, like where I live, I would say it's definitely pushing it. If you decide to do it, make sure you get .40 treated or something similar. BTW as mentioned above, read this thread to learn some stuff about ACQ treated lumber: http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=34447.1 Metal fasteners and hardware would rust more too being that close to the ground.
Pro-Deck's design recommendations would produce a rock-solid deck, especially with the 12" OC joists. Mine was designed to be "adequate", but like I said - I don't build decks out of 2x6s. His would require a second center beam.
Also here is another web page for you to look at: http://www.bellevue.net/deck.htm
And, attached are a few pics of paver patios. Again, I think a deck that low is a mistake, but I'd build one for someone if that was what they really wanted and I didn't have any other work.
Matt
Edited 2/12/2004 7:54:09 AM ET by DIRISHINME
It's good that you settled the permit issue. Don't forget to double-check for underground pipes and wires.
If frost is not a concern, as you indicated before, you don't have to dig very deep. (I don't know anything about earthquakes, so maybe someone from CA will chime in here.) Just dig to solid, undisturbed mineral soil. Since digging is not a big issue and you're very close to the ground, I think free-standing is the way to go. That eliminates all the work needed to properly attach to the house and do flashing. Leave a gap of an inch or so between your frame and house so water and debris can't accumulate there.
It's usually a good idea to have a step down from the door to the deck so water (or snow) from the deck won't run in and under the door. If your climate is warm and dry, this is less of a concern. Maybe in your case, a drop of a couple of inches with the above-mentioned gap wold do the trick.
There are worries that chemicals in the new pressure-treated lumber will rapidly corrode steel fasteners. Be sure to use heavy hot-dipped galvanized fasteners, or better yet, stainless steel. If you can design your deck so the joists sit on the beams, rather than hang from joist hangers, you'll have less to worry about.
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
Any air space under a deck is better than none. The higher off of the ground the more air the deck gets.
We usually cut the siding 1 1/2" below the sill so we can fasten 1 1/2" drip edge flashing over the treated ledger that is bolted to the house.We bolt it with 3/8" X 4" Galvanized lag bolts with washers every 16".
Here is a framing shot of a Trex deck we did over a patio. Now Trex says you can frame 16" on center but you will find it a little springy so we frame at 12" on center."Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
Check with building centers around you. They usually have some free material on deck building, and probably have some relatively cheap ($10 or less) magazine-style books on the topic. These will give you basic hints on how to frame it up, etc.
Pay attention to the decking manufacturer's specifications as to joist spacing. Some of the composite stuff is quite stiff, but some is very flexible and may need as close as 1-foot spacing.
If frost isn't a problem, and you're building it low to the ground on relatively level (and stable) ground, you might want to look into "Deck Blocks" (or something with a similar name). These are pre-cast concrete footing blocks (kind of pyramid shaped) that have notches in the top so that the joists can fit right in. You can use these every few feet so that the span on the joists is minimal, allowing you to use shallower joists.
Note that you do need to spend a lot of time carefully positioning and leveling the blocks, but once they're in place then things should go quickly.
1) I vote for free-standing, to avoid penetrating the house. Do NOT butt a free-standing deck to the house - leave a 1/2" air gap. No one is going to step in the gap.
If I read your posts correctly, it sounds like you have 11" between door threshold and ground.
2) Setting the deck on cast blocks is fine, since your door threshold is only 11" off the ground. No digging so less labour and no worrying about utilities, and if a block settles, you can always jack it and backfill.
3) It would be ideal to have a full step down from door threshold to top of decking, to avoid rain splashing up into/onto house/door/whatever. However, doesn't sound like you have the height. Make the deck level with the door threshold, then (which will maximize the air space under the deck, too). Whatever you do, don't make them different by a little bit. Either it's a full step up/down, or they're level. Anything else is a trip hazard.
4) If your pressure treated wood is ACQ, you MUST use ACQ-rated fasteners. Check out the thread pointed to previously, and research the web. Don't rely on your local building store to provide help.
5) If using composites, do what Pro-Dek says: use 12" joist spacing. No structural rigidity to Trex.
6) Before building, mark the crown on ALL your joists with an arrow using a lumber crayon; crown goes up.
Regards,
Tim Ruttan
Lots of good info is at http://www.co.fairfax.va.us/dpwes/PUBLICATIONS/deckdet.htm. Not everything will apply to your situation but there's much that may.
Good luck
Al
OK your few days off is long gone so where's our pictures of the deck you did?
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob