OK, I hit the point where I know that I am well past my skills and abilities. I live in an old house, 1905. After several of you told me I was insane to install a new second floor bath on 4″ joists spanning 172″, I decided to take a structural inventory of my house, as the firs step toward planning a second floor renovation. I was smart enough to realize, I can’t rebuild the second floor, if the first floor is falling down. Yesterday was a nice day so spent some time really looking closely at the house’s structure from the exterior. What I found scares the bejesus out of me.
Last fall my wife removed some seriously overgrown juniper on the west side of the house. This allowed me, for the first time, to get a really close look at this side of the house, and I actually took that opportunity for the first time. It’s a gable end wall, built on laid stone foundation. Exterior wall is approx 15′ wide, sill is approx 12″ above grade, 12/12 roof tops out at around 28′ above grade. Baloon framed with 2″x4″ (actual) studs 16″ on center, first and second floor decks joists run paralell to this gable wall. Sheathed in 1×12 pine, wood T&G siding, blow in cellulose insulation was added about 6 years ago, no housewrap or vapor barrier of any kind. Interior walls are plaster and lath. There is a large fixed pane window approx 5’x6′ centered on first floor wall, a double hung 32″wx50″ high centered on second floor wall, no idea of header sizes or RO framing details for either of these windows.
From a point about 5′ above grade down to grade, the gable end wall is seriously bowed outward (convex when viewed from exterior). I’d guess 2-3″ of bow in the center, but until I have another set of hands I can’t measure accurately. No sign that the sillplate is moving off the foundation (nothing overhanding the foundation). There is a similar bow in the base of the interior wall. There are no new cracks in the plaster. I gouged out and filled a fair number of cracks in the adjoining walls 8 years ago mostly the result of lath separating from studs, or plaster losing its key and separating from lath, but on this particular wall the craks all run horizontal (same direction as the lath). In fact, one of the reasons I didn’t notice this before we removed the landscaping was that this interior wall was actually in pretty good shape compared to the rest of hte house (the house was pretty well wrecked when we bought it).
I think I’ve concluded that the foundation is not straight, but I have no way to know whether it ever was, other than the fact that on the north side of the house, where there is a long, uninterrupted run of foundation, it is straight. There is no easy access to this foundation from inside, the house is built over crawlspace, the only access is all the wya over on the east side of the house, and it’s your typical nasty, spider-infested, low crawlspace. I ain’t going down there until I know precisely what I’m looking for. I’d really appreciate knowing what you folks make of this, and how you’d go about a diagnosis and/or repair.
Replies
Greetings Madman!
;)
I am the one who used the word insane but I did so in hyperbole` and not as insult.
From all I have followed of this description i feel pretty confident that I know your house, having worked on several very similar.
My bet would be that this end of the house is only 20-24' wide and that the floor frming you will see in that crawlspace is ture sized 2x8 running parrallel to this gable end wall. If you were to open up walls the headers over those windows will be ture 4x4s.
This gable end wal is technically non structrual with regards to vertical loading if the above assumptions are true, and this is a reason for the bulge.
See, it was not uncommon for such a house of that vintage to have a foundation of trench rubble fill. They dug a trench about 18-24" wide, and started rolling rocks into it with nmortar as needed, sometimes taking rock to the sill and sometimes bringing up the exposed portion with brick or granite.
So the foundation of these is not on a footing and is not below frost depth. That allows two things - the loaded walls under the weight of the walls floors and roof above will gradually sink an ich or so, but the gable end wall being unloaded, will have less weight to resist the upthrusting action over the years of the frost ggitting under the stone rubble wall there. Since there was a limit to how far it could go up, and since the wall lacked continuous integrity due to the large window ( often a fireplace at that location held things anchored in place) the wall bowd out and so did the stone of the foundation there. It was probably patched plaster on the interior at some point in it's history that left the interior looking fine.
What I would be looking or in the crawl is whaether these assumptions of joist size and direction are right, and if they are solid or rotting - or splitting from being notched over a ledger. I would study the whole of the foundation wall from the inside and out to see what appears obvious. I would take with me a flashlight and a digital camera, both with good batteries. I recently went to check out a floor situation where I found that it was not possible for a humna to get in. There was a cluster of HVAC ducts running through the one access. I had a tight fiot just to stick my camera in with one hand and take a bunch of Pictures at diffeerent angles that I could study at home on the PC.
Even if you can get in to see better than I did, you could be too creeped out to be able to focus and know what you are seeing. By having the photos, you can study them at leisure with a Guiness at hand or share them withus for diagnosis. The photos, that is, but we'll take a Guiness too...
;)
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin, I knew you were engaged in a little hyperbole in that other thread. At first, I thought "Too much hyperbole." After all, that second floor has held up just fine for 102 years now. Then I thought about it some more, and realized that I couldn't honestly say that. There is not a truly level floor anywhere in this building, and there is not a whole lot of plumb either other than where I shimmed out the studs prior to sheetrocking a room or two.
Your explanation makes lots of sense. Most of those unlevel floors have their low points at the load-bearing walls. I think there's a shortcut into the crawlspace from under a porch. Still nasty, but a shorter distance to creep and no HVAC equipment in the way. I'll get some photos and get ready to start mailing out cans of Guinness. :)
"If the trout are lost, smash the state."
It comes in CANS?In the other thread, I knew it had held fine for so long, BUT you weretalking about adding load with walls and fixtures, and then possibly cutting into them....now way was that gonna work out when you already had extensive luck on your side for the first hundred years.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You're absolutely right. That's why I'm going the other way, now. Time to addres some of the structural issues, but like I said, I'm not gonna beef up the second floor deck while I've got problems down at the sill level.
"If the trout are lost, smash the state."
what piffin says sounds exactly right to me, there are some techniques for remedy, and i am sure you will get much advice with pictures to diagnose and free guinness.
i would like to offer advice on how to prepare to go in a crawl space, first get some coveralls, a knit cap (beanie or toboggan), knee pads, gloves, duct tape, and do a good job of taping yourself up. it makes a big difference in not getting creeped out if you are properly dressed. last put on the gloves, you may not want to tape those but you can if you want. i also put lots of tape on knee pads, i want them to stay where they are supposed to when i am crawling. i hate it when they roll around to the back of my knee where i dont need them.
your flashlight should be a heavy duty one, or at least a good flash on the camera, you will want lots of light down there. when i know i am going to be back i set up fluorescent lights and extension cord system, so i can reach in and grab the male end of the cord and plug it in and be all lit up. you don't need this for the first trip, but it won't hurt to have it in mind when your under there to think about locations.
not a bad idea to have a large straight screwdriver for probing to see if rot is present. i always feel a little more confident when i have one in hand anyway.
finally and most important if you are crawling around down there and you think you may have put your hand in some catship the last thing you want to do is lift your hand up to your nose and sniff to make sure that it is indeed catship, because when you are certain that it is catship on your hand you will bump your head on every joist you have crawled under in your mad rush to get outside and breathe some fresh air and get that damn catship washed off your hand.
Edited 2/18/2007 10:40 pm ET by segundo
>>"finally and most important if you are crawling around down there and you think you may have put your hand in some catship the last thing you want to do is lift your hand up to your nose and sniff to make sure that it is indeed catship, because when you are certain that it is catship on your hand you will bump your head on every joist you have crawled under in your mad rush to get outside and breathe some fresh air and get that damn catship washed off your hand."<<
LOL. Best darn piece of advice yet, especially since we did, in fact, have a cat take up rsidence down there a couple years ago.
I spent a fair bit of time in this crawlspace back when I bought the place as I was rewiring. But I never got all the way to this end of the house, partly because this end of the crawl freaked me out, and I decided I could wire this room by looping down from the room above to put in receptacles.
Duct tape, check; big a- screwdriver, check; flashlight, flourescent lantern, headlamp, check; nerves of steel, not a freakin' chance."If the trout are lost, smash the state."
James,
I think Piffin has given you all of the right advice so far. If you will post some photos of the outside of this foundation and the exterior of the building as well as those interior photos I'll chip in whatever I can.
You can measure the bow (which may or may not be deflection) by puttind some spacer blocks at each end of the wall that will offset a string line out past the bow (a couple of 2x4 blocks is fine) then pull a string line real tight and take measurements.
I'm a pretty strong believer in tradition, and for as long as this house has been standing, if there are not other indications of structural failure, you may actually not have much of a problem at all.
Even if there are some structural compromises, a bunch of folks here have repaired worse than what you have described thus far, I know I have.
What I mean by other indications is mostly indications of recent movement. The big bad ones are cracks (that weren't there yesterday)running diagonally away from windows and doors , fresh horizontal cracks that span the building, and doors or windows that used to work good last week but are stuck open or shut even though there has been no change in the weather.
As Piffin pointed out, unless this building has a structural ridge, that gable end wall is pretty much holding its own weight and that's about all. If you do need to do some repairs it's not difficult. And typically the lumber used in homes of the age you describe is immeasurably superior to the genetically engineered near-cousin of celery that we use nowadays.
Post some more details. I think I still owe you for some business advice or something, don't I? <G>