Anyone have any tips for freeing a Siemans 20A breaker thats seems to have welded itself to the bus bar?
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Replies
I would start with turning off the Main myself.
;-)
Awesome! I'd shut of the main and start breaking it apart.
What caused it to melt that bad?
"Certainly it's nice to have some sort of "due process" with regard to moderator decisions (not that any law requires it), but (to borrow from another thread) there are "extremists" who cannot fathom why they are being censored, even though it's patently obvious to the rest of the peanut gallery, and they will, given a chance, drag out an argument forever, making the forum tedious for everyone else." DanH to Bill Hartmann August24 2008
Well....
there's no visible damage to it, but it sure doesn't want to pop out. It's feeding my kitchen lighting and some utility outlets, and all of a sudden I started getting lots of flickering in the lights. Thought I had a loose wire in one of the outlets, but when I went to the panel I could hear crackling, and when I switched the feed to a spare breaker the flicker stopped. That's when I discovered that the breaker was stuck to the lugs.I'm wondering if anyone lubes the contacts when installing breakers.......
Do you need that slot? If you have space for more breakers, disconnect it and leave it in the box.
Yeah, if you don't need the slot I'd just leave it in place and mark it bad. You risk damage to the panel if you try to remove it, and the slot is likely to be unusable (due to pitting on the bus bar) once you get the breaker out.If you really need the slot, shut off the main, temporarily remove the breakers on either side, and use a drill to break open the breaker and pry it apart. Remove stuff until you're down to the spring contact on the bus bar, then carefully pry that off.Be wary of "polishing" the scorched bus bar -- it's likely silver-plated and you risk removing the plating (if it isn't gone already). If the slot is reused it should only be for a low-amperage circuit and you should probably apply a little contact grease to the bar.
In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion. --Carl Sagan
I would remove the breaker above and below and on the other side so that you can inspect the area.You migth find enough secondary damage or other cause such as water leak causing corroision that indicates that the pannel needs to be replaced or repaired..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thanks all for the suggestions.....
Hadn't thought of stripping the breakers either side-I probably would have gone in with the big hammer at the stuck one, instead of the sensible exploratory procedure I'll be real disappointed if the panel is in bad shape, since it's barely 5 years old, and the location isn't excessively damp
Any chance it is a bolt-in breaker? LOL I would replace it to remove all doubt of trouble later. Worst case scenario you change the buss out.
Since I'm following everyone else here, I'll just reiterate, then add my own advice.
As a couple of people have said, turn off the main. Then remove enough breakers around that one, so that you can get a good look in there. If the bar is corroding, etc, replace the entire box.
**Now my added... When you remove all the breakers around that one, you don't have to remove the wires from the breakers. Just pull the breakers, and then move them out of the way,still connected to their wires. When you replace them, make sure you put them back in the same slots. This will eliminate having to trace circuits later to figure out what was originally what.
As some have said, if you decide to remove the breaker, the best way is to take a drill to the breaker itself, and tear it apart, a bit at a time.
But if it were me... I'd go with the advice to leave it in place. Rather than take the chance that something will be royally screwed up in your attempt to remove the bad one. I'd move that wire to another slot, permanently. And leave the bad breaker in place.
**My addition to that... Not only mark the breaker bad, but paint it white, on the top, and mark BAD in red, on that. Also, remove the screw that holds the wire in that breaker, then drill out the hole that the screw went into, way oversize, so no other screw can be put in there.
What a fool believes he sees
No wise man has the power, to reason away
Click here for access to the Woodshed Tavern
An update on the stuck breaker.
I was all set to do the suggested course of action, turn off the service disconnect and remove breakers around the stuck one.
Except, unless there is some trick only real electricians know, my service disconnect-it's an EQ8693 150A-is defective. I can flip it, but it won't go off and/or latch off.
If anyone has any suggestions or experience that is relevant, I'm all eyes....
Never mind the stuck disconnect then, I don't mind doing things hot....so I removed the breakers either side of the stuck on, and that gave me enough purchase on the stuck one to pull it out. The bus bar looked OK on first look, so I tried a known good 20A breaker. On powering up, got the same flicker that started this, and could hear crackling in the breaker.
I pulled it back out, and sure enough there is some very slight pitting on the bus bar. (It's very slight...surprising that it makes so much difference)
I contemplated lathering a bit of neverseez on the contact, but decided to try and find a purpose made conductive grease. Sad to say, the counterman at my local electrical supply house looked at me like I had a third eye. I asked if he DID have some conductive grease, would he use it. "No" Why not I ask. "I've never heard of anyone doing that"
Well, OK. So, where can I get some conductive grease. Should I experiment with the neverseez (FWIW, it's the regular Moly type, not the copper....)
I'd be reluctant to put conductive grease on there, since it could run into the breaker or create a trace across to the other bus bar. And it's likely that it wouldn't add enough conductivity to do much good anyway. Abandon the slot, unless you absolutely must use it.
In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion. --Carl Sagan
Thanks..
I'm not so worried about creating any unwanted traces, as I would be very sparing with the grease.
I am wondering if I should do some preventive lubing with some NON-conductive grease on the rest of the breakers?
the only low voltage breakers I have ever seen that had grease on the lugs were the I-Line series from SqD, but those panels and breakers are for commercial and industrial applications, so I can not recommend putting anything on your breakers, because they are not greased from the factory. and because filling in a gap with grease would not fix your problem which sounds like a stab that is just a bit too thinbut I am curious about your idea to use "non-conductive" grease, if it doesn't conduct how would voltage and current get through to the load side ? the only safe fix would be a new panel interior since you have more than one problem now
I agree that the bad space should just be abandoned until you change out the whole thing, which from the sound of it, should be real soon.
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I was thinking of putting the Noalox on the working breakers, to head off any further oxidation...though now that I think about it maybe the conductive grease makes more sense......
I've only got one problem....one slightly pitted lug on an under 5 year old box. Seems like even if it's only abandoning that lug, there's options....
the problem you have is one of trying to adjust for something that really doesn't have any adjustment.
you swapped breakers and still had the problem, and trying to fill in a electrical gap with sort of grease is just aking for a worse failure
No-Alox or Penetrox is primarily to prevent corrosion on Aluminum surfaces or connections.... your problem is not corrosion but one of fit ... would you even think of just smearing some of that gunk on a loose wire on a device instead of tightening it ?besides you wrote that the main breaker is not operating.... how many more faults do you need to have before you change out the panel ? I'm not trying to sound like you need to run out tonight, just abandon the space and think about replacing either that faulty Main Breaker or just the guts, you can leave the tub since it is just a thing to hang the breakers in.I'll be back in a minute.......!.
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Please believe me when I say I'm not purposely being pigheaded here, but it isn't as though the breaker isn't tight on the backstab....Heck, I had to strip the breakers around it to get enough of a grip to remove it....so, it seems like it's the rough surface that's causing mini-arcs, and conductive grease would fill in the pits & cure the problem (the pitting really is very minor)
But you're absolutely right that the main needs replacing.....even if it's only to have a working disconnect.....
If there's arcing of the contact area then most likely there isn't enough area of contact to carry the current. Adding grease, conductive or not, won't fix this. The grease would only help over the long term, preventing oxidation of the contact area.
In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion. --Carl Sagan
Appreciate the thoughts.
Just the main/service dis-connect in the panel, and then the meter upstream.
Wish I could pull the meter, but I believe National Grid frowns on that.......
since you insist .first,
turn off ALL the other breakers,
then pull the meter, get some very fine SANDPAPER, or some other NON-METALLIC abrasive and very GENTLY remove SOME of the pitting from both sides of the stab, be VERY careful to not get any of the metal dust on anything, and do not bend that stab or alter it's size throw the old breaker away, buy a new one, put some of that damn grease on the lug and wire it in .____________________________stand away when you first re-energize it and if there is no fireball you should be OK !also if you have any Fire Retardant Clothing or just 100% Cotton I would put it on, also use a faceshield that won't melt from the blast, if you don't have one just use the spaghetti strainer from the kitchen and maybe a catchers chest protector to slow down some of the shrapnel, avoid wearing flip-flops, and loud luau shirts, remove any jewelry, make your wife standby with a 25# fire extinguisher that's rated ABC, she should wear !00% Cotton as well and she should also be trained in First Aid and CPR and be able to tell the difference between 2nd and 3rd degree burnsalso have a phone that works when the power is off, most cordless phones DON"T
OK I've had my fun now, just keep in mind that somewhere in there are some valid concerns of mine, ........ but slight sanding MAY fix your problem, but I still don't suggest it as a fix.
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Edited 9/9/2008 7:50 pm by maddog3
Man, I'm having fun with this, aren't you......
I just can't shake the Yankee habit....fix it up, use it up, recycle it.
Granted, there's a fine line between hack'in it and making do......
Anyway, no one's answered whether they've ever seen a tripped main in a residential box. Inquiring minds want to know!
Sometimes y'all are like Ralphie's mom in "A Christmas Storey" "you'll shoot your eye out!!!"
I have.On 100 amp panels with on of the breakers backfeed as the main.When you remove the cover it is easy to hit the handle and the breaker trips <G, D & R>.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
well I'm with you on getting my moneys worth, but it's because some folks get hurt playing electrician, & sometimes those folks are electricians, I have caused mains to trip, some in homes and others due to ground faults or shunt trips, once in awhile a power breaker goes all crappy.
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"...so, it seems like it's the rough surface that's causing mini-arcs, and conductive grease would fill in the pits & cure the problem..."Why is there a rough surface in the first place? Because the breaker was making poor contact and therefor arcing. It was probably hard to remove because of oxidation products (which would be poor conductors) "welding" the parts together. You can't fix that bus bar. You can only replace it.BruceT
Non-conductive grease is frequently used on electrical contacts, and is in fact almost certainly the type of grease used on breakers that have pre-greased contacts. It works by exluding air from the contact area, preventing oxidation.
In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion. --Carl Sagan
I know, I was trying to have some fun with him,
I normally just see the goop on large frame Med Voltage equipment.whatever he may be thinking, grease still won't fix his problem .
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Just go to any auto parts store, and get some silicone dielectric grease.However, I'm voting for you to abandon the slot, and replace the main breaker...
Signed: Bubba Hussein Obama.
What a fool believes he sees
No wise man has the power, to reason away
Click here for access to the Woodshed Tavern
I would be more concerned with the main breaker.You aren't sure tht if would trip. And if it does you probably can't reset it.And while it might be a simple mechanical break in a plastic arm that does not affect the internal operation there might be more serious internal problems..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Well, I don't think there's a break in the arm....seems like I'd hear or feel that.
Point taken about not being sure if it would trip---but now I'm really curious to know how often that happens in a residential panel....seems to me the main breaker is really a service disconnect 99% of the time.....
Re the "service disconnect", do you mean the main breaker, or is there a separate disconnect outside the house? I assume you know this, but just to make sure: If you have both a main breaker and a (separate) service disconnect you can use either one to de-energize the panel (though if you use the main breaker in the panel you do have to be careful of the hot wires connected to the main).
In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion. --Carl Sagan
Well, it's the main breaker, and if the sticker the electrician who installed put on it is right, it's also the "Service Disconnect"
Edited 9/9/2008 9:08 pm ET by jrnbj
Look near the meter and see if there's another disconnect.
In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion. --Carl Sagan
the electrician who installed put on
Call him and have him put a new panel in for you, or rebuild the intside of the one you have.
Saying is only five years old isn't a reason for not fixing it correctly.
You'll remember that lame #### excuse some night as your standing outside watching your house burn down.
I wonder if there was some defect in it that cause the breaker to set too high or the bus too low..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Man, someone is telling you that you need a new panel. Me -- I'd take the hint. ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Panel's less than 5 years old....
"Panel's less than 5 years old...."
What's your point? ;-)
The main is toast, and at least one of the bus bars is apparently shot. A new panel without breakers (you can use all but the main and your one busted breaker in the new panel) isn't all that expensive.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
My point is that a panel should last more than 5 years.
Only one of stabs is bad.
By the time I pay the electrician it get's expensive, at least for me....
"My point is that a panel should last more than 5 years."
Yeah, I hear ya. But something's up with that panel since there seem to be multiple problems with it even tho' it's relatively new.
Short of a new panel, replace the main breaker and abandon the mucked up slot. If you're short on slots, you can probably replace one of the breakers with a tandem.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
One possibility is that water has entered the panel through the service entrance conduit.
In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion. --Carl Sagan
With the multiple problems you describe ... I'd say it's time to quit the DIY attempts, and get a real electrician out there. Be Safe. Period. If that means having the PoCo disconnect you while repairs are made, so be it.
They sell grease at the auto parts store called Di-electric grease - you use it on the boots of spark plug wires so as to prevent corrosion. If you don't have corrosion between the boot and the terminal, you can actually get the boot off! I don't know if it would work for your situation, but I use it for a lot of connections other than spark plug boots - any wiring that is or potentially can be exposed to the elements - like outdoor lighting and such.
From Wikipedia: A dielectric is a nonconducting substance, i.e. an insulator. The term was coined by William Whewell[1] in response to a request from Michael Faraday.
Do you want to insulate your breaker from the buss?For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
Once again, the purpose of grease on contacts is to exclude air and prevent oxidation. Using a non-conductive grease is preferred in most cases, since it largely eliminates the danger of the grease establishing a conductive trace between separate conductors.The dielectric grease sold for auto ignitions is generally a good choice since it has good temperature stability, is non-reactive, and is reasonably unaffected by moisture.But it would be of little value in the current situation, except perhaps to prevent failure of adjacent breaker contacts.
In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion. --Carl Sagan
New breakers generally come with grease in the contact points already. I can't help it that the panel is 'only 5 years old.' With all the problems he's having .... we're beyond the 'quick fix' point. At the very minimum, he needs to pull his meter, and rep[lace the complete insides of the panel ... AND figure out what's really going on. I've only encountered this sort of problem a very few times with "normal" panels. In each instance, there was something else going on ... corrosive / salt air, water entry, even some fool using a Dremel to "clean" the buss tabs. Once, it was not only a breaker that ran at full load nearly all the time, the breaker was also old enough remember LBJ.
Yeah, I'd agree that something's probably going on. Moisture in the box is my first suspicion.
In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion. --Carl Sagan