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pine looks best painted.
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pine looks best painted.
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Recent project we had wanted a natural look to pine. Originally, the pine was to be stained but after we saw what we had to work with the decision was made to go with a clear finish, no stain. (Sorry to contradict ya Bullet) The pine had zero defects and was consistent as ever could be. After testing and weighing many options, we went with the simplest of all solutions. First, one coat thinned sanding sealer (can't remember, either McCloskey or Ace brand). Secondly, unthinned Sand'g Sealer. Then, followed up w/ two coats Miniwax semi-gloss polyurethane. Sanded between all coats and rubbed out the last coat of finish w/ a rag. Never thought it would look that good. The owner didn't mind the hygenic look of the "poly'. I call it hygenic because the stuff looks like 'a protective coating' as if under a thin plastic film -- it looks like it is easy to clean and it is! I know some don't like this appearance but I think it worked w/ our goals in this particular case.
Good luck w/ your decision.
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mike;
Did a whole house with mostly Oak trim, but the windows were fir. Stuff just sucks up stain and looks real splotchy....
I can wholeheartedly recommend the following:
Use a clear stain on the softwood. This will "fill" the "pores". Then use your colored stains.
Notice I said stain"S". I had several different "versions" of the color I wanted. A little more red, or grey or green, based on what the piece looked like once the clear went on. I'd wipe on coats until the piece matched the basic oak I was trying to duplicate.
A lot of work, but you get pretty fast. Results were stunning.
I really like Sherwin Williams solvent based stuff. I used the Sherwood Wiping Stains (NOT the water based). I've used their CAB Acrylic Lacquer for kitchens, baths and all else. Very nice, water-white, non-yellowing system. (Cellulose-Acetate-Butyrate)I've used the catalyzed lacquer system twice, and haven't seen much advantage...alot more hassle. As with all, a sanding sealer is a must. I hit it with a VERY dilute first wetting coat of the sealer, then a coat of the sanding sealer. Steel wool, vacuum, tack and 2 coats of the CAB.
CAB comes in Gloss, "medium Rubbed" and Rubbed....I despise the glossy look so the medium is what I recommend.
G luck
Adam
*PRPSpeaking ofi keeping it simpleif you're gonna coat with urethane, why bother with sanding sealer? Surely 3 coats of urethane, with the 1st thinned, gives as good a result. And if your gonna wipe down the last coat, doesn't that take the sheen off anyway in which case 3 coats of satin without the extra sanding and wiping would provide the same look??-pm
*Hi Mike, Last December I Made all custom trim with corner and plinth blocks for allthe door and windows as well as all the casing and baseboards for a 5000 sq ft home. the builder applied two coats of Watco Danish Oil in the natural shade. He applied the first coat after I milled up all the trim and the second coat after i had installed the trim. All of the pine I used was number 3 grade and looks great with this product applied. The builder applied the first coat with a brush, flooding it on real heavy and the second coat was wiped on with a cloth. The Watco really brings out the highlights in the pine and really makes the Knots stand out nicely.
*Mike , if you really want oak you might check into a product that I've used in the past called Oak Over from Contact Lumber in Oregon [ I got it from a couple of different suppliers locally here in OK ] . Its finger jointed pine with a clear oak veneer wrapped around the face side and comes in several different styles and sizes of base , caseing , crown etc. It looks like perfectly clear oak and cuts and nails like pine . I have'nt used it in awhile so I dont know for sure if it's still available , but when I bought it , it was within two or three cents a foot of the clear stain grade pine .My brother has had it in his house about five years and it still looks great . Chuck PS , another company , Ferche [ I think ] , makes a similar product .
*Chuck;Sorry, but I have to disagree...Oak over doesn't have the durability that Oak has. The slightest tap, vacuum bump, etc will dent the underlying pine! Also, they have seams in the veneer periodically, so you need to look out for these.I do agree, it is cheaper...problem is only you'll know it.Adam
*Adam , I never intended to suggest that it was as durable or an even swap for real oak . Mike said he wanted oak but his budget wouldn't allow it . I was only suggesting a compromise .I know it's as durable as pine [ since that's what's under the veneer ] , his current choice , and surely you would agree it looks more like oak than pine does .Guess I should have said " if you really want the appereance of oak " . Chuck
*Chuck;Actually, on re-reading his post, your response is right on...I missed it. I suppose OV ("oak veneer" as we spec it) is better than pine (if he is matching the doors)!BTW, another comment on the OV: you don't get crisp knife-edge details on mouldings since all corners are rounded to allow the veneer to bend over them.Adam
*If You decide on pine with a stain I would suggest Minwax conditioner or a homemade soup of 50% linseed oil and 50% mineral spirits if my memory serves me right. The main reason for this preconditioner is that it eliminates the splotchy look that occurrs when stains are applied to softwoods.
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PM,
I took your question to a friend who owns a furniture refinishing company; he was the one that got me going on the use of Sanding Sealer. Here's what he said. Two reasons for the SS. First, while the urethane coats more than absorbs, there is some absorbtion and that the sanding sealer is only a safeguard against "splotchy" absorbtion. But secondly, he says, the main reason is for future refinishing. You could strip the urethane if you wanted to a year or 20yrs from now and still have the benefits of the ss and go and apply a stain and not worry about the stain getting "Deep" into the grain of the wood -- which could make any subsequent stain/finish refinish difficult if not impossible.
But after all that, I'd say that your method is simple and quicker, and in most cases will hold-up well.
Just gotten used to using the SS stuff as a safeguard for everything.
The "rub-out" was not predicated on the use of gloss/semi-gloss/ or satin, but for smoothing out the surface and making it look deeper -- I really stand by this procedure. It was a rag and not steel wool.
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In my former life as a painting contractor, we always used either a 1:1 blend of thinner and a prestain product (dont remember brand names offhand) or sometimes just a wipe down with thinner. It gets sucked into the porous areas so that when you hit it with stain, not as much gets absorbed and blotchy. You have to work faster with the straight thinner because if you wipe it down too far ahead of the stain, it will start to dry and you will lose the protection it gives. Be sure you also thin the stain -- many times we would end up cutting it 1:1 with thinner too. If you do that, you wont have to wipe 80% of it back off, just give a quick wipe to even things up. Experiment with a small portion of stain to find out the proportion that will give you the color you want without all the extra rubbing off. I think I used semigloss varnish or poly a handfull of times over the years, only when the customer insisted. Thats what gives the plastic look. Satin is much preferable. Semigloss IS slightly harder so I would use it under the final satin coat for durability. One last thought -- sometimes when pine or even oak blotches on you, grab a rag with thinner on it and rub the spot right away before it sets up and try to blend it in. Also, if you find a light spot (glue, caulk,?) grab your 150+ grit sandpaper and work the spot over with the grain WHILE IT IS FRESH and then rub the stain on again. The paper will gum up right away but it is much easier to blend it in then rather than wait for it to dry and try to touch it up.
*Watco Natural rules! I have been usin' that stuff for close to 20 years, and I absolutely love it. If you let it thouroughly dry, you can even go over it with a water based finish. - jb
*Jim, "Crazy Legs" Blodgett confirms my own experience with Watco. I haven't tried it on softwoods but his letter comforts me. I have used it on hardwoods (oak, ash) and he is absolutly right: Watco rules. It has been bought by Minwax, once one of its competitors, but they are similar Danish oil products. Danish oil is the way to go, because it is a stain and a finish all in one. No top finish needed. Just brush or wipe it on, leave till the color is what you like, wipe off. If it is too light, re-brush and wait a little longer. Wipe off again. When you're happy with the color, just let dry for a week or two. You're done. It acomes in several colors: natural, lignt walnut, medium walnut, dark walnut, I think some others, eg the "oak" series which has some red in it. You can cover with varnish or lacquer, but I don't recommend it unless you plan to fill the pores in the wood with wood filler, which needs protection. Why? Watco soaks into the wood and hardens the surface after one or 2 weeks. Looks very good. Suppose you later scratch or chip it; just wipe with the same color and you've fixed it, presto!You don't need the clear coat for protection. It is its own protector.Stephen Miller
*How do Danish oils hold up on trim that is exposed to a lot of sunlight? I have some windows where the poly broke down so fast that I resorted to marine grade spar varnish! Talk about being under a coat of plastic...BTW, yellow pine is much harder and doesn't seem to have the problem of knots that white pine does. I don't know about the cost issue though, since we were matching (hah!) existing trim.
*Thanks for all of the suggestions and experience, for materials and techniques. I got a copy of Bob Flexner's Understanding Woodfinishing book, gives insight on the differnt characteristists of oil/varnish (Watco) vs oil/polyurethane vs waterbased poly and others. Compares ease of application, durability, resistance to water/water vapor, heat, Check it out.A Fine Woodworking Magazine article suggested addinga dye (Trans-tint) to waterbased poly to give more of aoil/poly (amber) look. Haven't tried it though.
*Mike, what Adam talked about with the clear stain is essentially a pre-stain. Whenever using stain on wood with inconsistent grain structure, a more even absorbtion and consequent change in wood color can be acheived by pre-staining the wood. A typical prestain for oil based stain is a 50/50 mix of linseed oil and mineral spirits. Liberally applied and wiped off this partially fills up the highly absorbtive areas so they won't excessivly absorb the stain later and create that oh so familiar blotchy look. Talk to a competant paint dealer for more particulars and run some samples through your entire intended process for the most predictable results. Caution linseed and other oil soaked rags can and do spontaneously combust and burn down buildings. Joe
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I'm about to start trimming the inside of my house. I've got some oak veneer doors (Valencia ?) that were being discontinued at the local home center.
I'd like to use oak for the rest of trim but the budget won't allow it. I've been thinking about using pine with a stained or clear finish for the windows and baseboard.
Any suggestions for staining, finishing with specific brands would be appreciated.
Thanks, Mike