I had a lady call yesterday. She wants a suspended ceiling installed. The room is 600 sq ft. It has 10ft ceilings and the suspended ceiling will be installed at 8ft. It will be 2’X4′ panels.
I don’t have any idea of how much to charge. Can anyone give me an idea?
Kip
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suspended ceilings go up quick......or can be a royal pain in the ####.
If you are unfamiliar with the process...or there are a lot of obstacles to work around.........I'd forgo the sq. ft. price and go with time and materials.......don't gouge and do a good job.......keep track of my time and the next one will be easier to bid.
600 sq ft (30x20) is a big room....especially if it is in a house.
10 ft ceilings would give it good porportions/open feeling.
i don't know why she wants, what she wants, but....
if you drop to 8 ft you will get that "small & closed in" feeling.
if it were my client, I would strongly suggest dropping the ceiling as little as possible...say 6".
that's only "IMHO"..............Iron Helix
There is a steel support running down the middle of the room. the support is 2" lower than the ceiling joists. There is also several heating ducts under the joists. That's why the ceiling needs to be dropped.
The last suspended celing I did was about 20 years ago. The systems look like they are easier to install now though (better design).
I know this job is going to require a lot of going up and down a ladder. I am thinking it would take 2 people about 10 hours. Does this seem right?
Kip
How common is it to suspend DW ceiling from metal furring strips hung from steel studs laid horizontally?
I currently have DW hung from steel studs (no wires holding them up, just attached to runners, about 10' span, ....), plan to take down DW to do some remodeling. When putting DW back, if I can hang DW parallel to the steel studs, I can avoid butt joints, hence considering furring strips.
Is there a trick to hanging recessed lights when I've got the 7/8" furring strips? I need the lights to be flush with the DW for air-sealing.
>>Is there a trick to hanging recessed lights when I've got the 7/8" furring strips? I need the lights to be flush with the DW for air-sealing.
use "old work" cans. they're about the same price as regular cans. they just clip to the drywall and can be cut in after tape and paint.
I like to use them in kitchens because its easier to lay out the cans after the cabinets are up and you can see where they are needed
Is the customer locked into metal track & acoustical tile? There are some interesting systems out there. One uses a runer with a wood face and drop-in "trays" to give a nice cofferred look while keeping access to the over-ceiling utilities.
Otherwise, two hands and two days sounds about right. Don't forget you'll likely have to set the laser up twice, so figure that into your estimating. Then, it's down to how easy is it to get the track & boxes of tiles in.
You should use 2' x 2' tiles. The 2' x 4' tiles will eventually sag and dont look as good. It will probably take 2 days since you don't do them all the time. A laser helps out big time.
What durabond said about the time seems right on. 2 days 2 guys. Also definitely use a laser. Make up a story stick or borrow an old transit rule to transfer your heights to the wall for the L track unless the tripod for the laser will go up high enough.
If you get a good quality 2x4 tile it shouldn't sag; 2x2's cost more because you need twice as many 2' T-rails. Otherwise it's a matter of aesthetics.
A 16ga finish nailer or stapler (even better) will tack up the L track. Set the pressure low so the nails/staples don't punch through the thin metal. If you can sell her on a moulded 1x4 as a cornice to which you tack the L track, your life will be that much easier too. Sometimes finding studs is such a pain but the 1x will hold the minimal weight of the L-track and ceiling panels even if you can't find them all. You'll get a better job if you tack the track every 12" to keep it from twisting under load, and you can only do that with a cornice or backerband nailed to the studs.
And I agree in a room that big the higher you can set it, the better. 8' will make the room seem very close. Try for 4" under that supporting beam. Any less and you'll have trouble getting in the tiles....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Before you trot out your pricing to the customer, go to a real acoustical products supply house. You should find that the track will/may be half the price of what you pay at a big box and the panel selection is something else.
A laser works well for getting the L track level around the room but you should also buy a set of string line clamps to assure that the runners stay level as you bend in the wire stays. Also helps the install if you pay attention to getting the grid centered in the room so you don't have a full size tile along one wall and a sliver to cut on the opposite. Just like laying out floor tiles. You also want the grid to have right angles - tiles drop in so much easier.
If you have problems holding up the L track or finding studs, get a pound or two of large fence staples, 1' to 1 1/4", and drive one leg sideways thru the L and into the drywall. This will clamp the track securely to the wall.
I second Ralph's suggestion to go to a "real" acoustics supply house but not for the same reason...well maybe were talking the same turkey....
I go to the "real" acoustic dealer to pay the same price for commercial grade grid which meets commercial codes. The steel is much heavier guage than the bix box and therefore makes installation significantly faster. The overall appearance will also be significantly better and you won't have to worry about stuff twisting, distorting etc.
Keep in mind though that once you snap this stuff together...it doesn't want you to take it apart. It's possible...but I usually end up cutting it if I make a mistake.
I agree with the 2x2 suggestion, but if you use a commercial grade tile (which is priced the same as boxes cheaper stuff), it will hold up unless your in extremely damp locations.
ONe other thing.....in a small room like you describe, I wouldn't bother setting up any lasers....providing that the existing ceiling is in good shape. I just measure off the existing ceiling to set the border angle. A quick site before putting in 50 screws will tell you if you're okay....you probably will. I'd probably snap a line (snap it at the top of the angle!).
Once the wall angles are done, I'd do an exact layout as mentioned above and make sure the border tiles are at least 50% of the tile. I start with a "main" in the center and check borders. If I have less than 50% of the tile, I shift the main one half unit. That will make the borders correct. I then hang all my wires. I make a 90 bend on the wires by measuring off the existing ceiling. After putting the mains up, I make a quick site to make sure they're level. If level, I do the twists.
I would probably square up the system on the floor or ceiling with snapped lines, if I didn't have a laser (I don't...except a little torpedo style...which may or may not work).
On tip we learned in school. If you use a dryline to line up the cross tees (you probably should if you don't use a laser), and the run is long...use dental floss...it is light and you can pull it tight...it won't droop.
Figuring time.... I would figure one skilled man day for the actual labor assuming two things. All the materials would be there onsite and the floor space would be free and clear and broom swept. Most ceiling guys I've watched would set up a baker (a small rolling scaffold) and work alone. If two guys went in there, they'd easily be done by noon....count the parts. If you're running 2x2's You'd have 7 mains 20' (mains are the most expensive) or 4 mains 30'. These are also the most time consuming because their placement is critical....but they're still very easy to install.
Working alone: 30 minutes to square it up and figure the borders. 10 minutes to snap the lines on the walls. 5 minute apiece for each wall angle (10 pcs). You have to put a hanger every 4' on the mains (I think...I can't remember spacing but it is specified for fire jobs)....thats 30 hangers...use a screw in eyebolt and a cordless drill....figure a minute apiece. Now...you gotta install the mains...twenty minutes per run ( figure one hour total). Now the 4' tees. They snap in in seconds...figure 15 minute for the tees and 10 more to cut in the ends. The same for the 2' tees (thats another 25 minutes total). Now, get out your whitney punch and punch a few holes and rivet those tees (every other tee is sufficitient). That adds another 15 minutes. Now the fun part...look it over and tweak it up and down...then add the tiles..the full ones go in in about 30 minutes. The edges will take another 30. Clean up and go home...30 minutes for that.
Add it up 30+10+50+30+60+15+10+25+15+30+30+30=about 6.5 hours.
I'd bid it at 8hrs x 60 =$480
They key to this job is to have the right equipment...the baker (with wheels), the whitney punch and a quality pop riveter.
I'm assuming that there is wood to anchor into on the walls and ceilings.
I've done a little of this stuff.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
A Whitney punch is a new one on me, Blue. Can you describe it for me? (Maybe a regional term I'm not familiar with?)
I assume you're talking about riveting the mains to the perimeter track? (Don't see why anyone would need to rivet the two-footers to the mains....)
I think your estimates might be a little on the fast side for a guy who hasn't done this in twenty years, especially if he's gotta dodge ducting or build any drops. Yeah, for a specialist who does nothing but, day in/day out, but I don't think that's the situation here....
BTW--take a look at those Johnson laser-level kits for about $50. Complete with tripod, leveling head, level, and an accessory straight-line lens. The spot/line is visible without the included goggles even in bright daylight. The tripod isn't bad for the price and with a story stick you can work it alone if ya don't mind hiking back and forth some.... Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Thanks guys. Some pretty good advice here.
The last time I did a suspended celing was 15-20 years ago. I am only thinking about taking this job because, things are slow right now. And I still have not gotten all my money for the deck I built for that Lawyer.
The room is clear. The studs should be easy to find. For the suspension wires, The ceiling joists are exposed. I was planning on running the mains on the 30' length. Keeping them 2' apart. Having the panels run length ways.
I was thinking 2 people should be Abel to compleat the job in 8 hours. Just guessing though. Will be working off ladders.
Kip
You really don't want to place the mains on 2' centers. Way too many wires in the road and really overkill. Take you longer to make less money. If you are set on using 2x4 tiles then use 4' between the mains at 4' o.c. then split those with more 4's parallel with the mains.
Ralph is right...you only run the mains on 4' centers and you hang a wire about every 4' on the mains only.
Running the mains perpindicular to the joists makes sense. It's easy to locate the hanger wires exactly above the mains that way. Wires that hang plumb are much easier to deal with measuring. Also, it eliminates the bind that occurs when installing the tiles.
Check out all the different supples at the commercial supply house. They have good stuff and you might be able to rent a "baker".
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
My local SW paint store had a sale on folding scaffolds, $99. The platform was adjustable up to 4 ft high, and it had casters. I looked it over, and determined that it would work well on a clear flat floor for one person. Certasinly not as good as the regular scaffolding, but then it doesn't go as high either.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Dino, I'm just estimating time for what professionals do. If a guy doesn't have the professional tools, or the skills, why should he be paid top rates for substandard production times?
To put it differently, I'm not that proficient at trim...particularly stair rail installations. I can do them, but because I only do one every five years...I'm not privy to all the little installation tricks and tools...and fasteners. Subsequently, it takes me twice as long to do one. Should I be paid twice as much as Stan to install one...simply becuase I'm marginal or weak at doing them? This same idea applies to ceilings.
I based my estimates on a clear ceiling situation....no drops. Ducting can be a problem but since most ducts are less than 4' then it usually can be dealt with without adding more time...it simply becomes a layout decision. Your pricing has to reflect the specialist's pricing....it just takes you longer!
A Whitney punch is a small tool which punches holes in steel. It comes with an interchangable bit system (you have to change both the punch and the reciever (the die?). It's much faster than a drill and cuts clean precise holes.
I can't remember for sure, but i thought the industry standards for fastening the grid system was to fasten every other tee in a 2x4 system. In a fire rated system, every tee might have to be fastened...I can't remember.
In a residential setting, I probably would probably just use common sense.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Dino, I'm just estimating time for what professionals do. If a guy doesn't have the professional tools, or the skills, why should he be paid top rates for substandard production times?
Granted...but highly unlikely KIPHERR is gonna charge the same hourly rate as a carded ceiling installer--who wouldn't charge by the hour anyway but flat rate and be in and out as fast as he could to bump his effective rate as high as possible. That's the way it works. But for our friend here, so he puts in more hours to get the same quality of finished job. He's working at at a lower rate; final bill comes out about the same, and everybody goes home happy.
As far as having the tools, I like to use nailguns to attach the L track because it's quick, easy, and I've got them. But they're not necessary. Using residential-grade track, Kipherr could probably tack it in place with a T50 every 6-8 inches and be good as gold. If not some 1¼ box nails and a claw hammer will do it quite nicely. The rest of what ya need isn't much more than a pair of dykes, a pair of snips, and a razor knife to trim panels. Plus some way to mark a level perimeter line...which could be as high-tech as a $4000 rotary laser or as simple as a $19.95 4-foot level from Crapsman.
Oh, yeah...and an FHB pencil, of course!
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
I suspect that he is talking about the Whitney JR.
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/toolsplus/rop5jr.html
they also make some larger ones.
http://www.vansantent.com/Hand_punch_7A.htm
And even bigger.
http://roperwhitney.com/index.cfm
Bill, thanks for the link. I have the whitney jr. Those are the only ones that I've seen onsite.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Ditto the thanks, Bill. Interesting tool. Kind of like a leather punch on steroids. I don't do enough sheet metal work to warrant one...yet. It goes on The List, LOL....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Resist the urge to use screws to fasten the L-strip to the wall ... the screws will tend to twist the thin metal. Staples are best. We used toi use fence staples.
Is there room to use a scaffold? If you rent (or buy) one of the small bakers rack type, it will rool easily and be more comfortable to work off than a ladder.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
it's no big deal... i swear the guy that does my jobs i don't have time for is blind uses a rolling 2ft x 8ft scaffle and pulls himself around almost never getting down
pony