How Much should a guy who frames and trims 300 houses a year be able to pay a good trim guy. Not a chief just an indian/with experience and tools? lets say 5 years experience.
Tell me why do I want to work for that guy who frames and trims 300 houses a year. (Literally.)
For half of what I am worth. No insurance until just before, its time to lay me off. I know the answer is I need money. And its the only thing I can do. But can anybody try to give me some good reasons to make me wanna do it. Because I need a job. Should i just kiss
?
– Is it because, I want to try real hard to impress him, so he makes me a crew leader. Somaybe he will give me a little more money? ( Still not enough ) with more work.
Quite simplly: What would you pay a trim guy to start If you liked his work. Because I am gonna do it. But I have played this game before. My work can’t be good enough for one reason or another. Thats the game. there will always be a reason why, I won’t earn what I want. How much?
Initially, I won’t be fast enough to make it look like I am worth it. I haven’t worked regular hours in a long time. Not his problem, I can understand that. Any sign of weakness … The first pocket door I get, will make me scratch my head (because I haven’t done one for a while,) Not because i don’t know the difference between level and plumb. The crew chief, Looking for some sign of weakness to put me down becuase he already knows he doesn’t like me. Probably because he doesn’t make enough either.
At This point doing a good job, and hanging trim become. Defending your good name and reputation which you have built, On quality work, satisfied customers. Not speed.I have absolute faith that in a short time I can hang trim with the speed. that any of those guys do. Hell i might even learn some tricks I don’t know. It won’t get me any more money. The actual work won’t be carpentry. It will just be this game. I don’t have to play when I work for myself. I guess I’m not man enough. Tell me why am a whiner? And tell me if you know what I am talking about?
I guess my glass feels half empty all of a sudden
Edited 5/19/2003 7:17:17 PM ET by MuleSkinner
Replies
Mule I think your glass went and fell off the table. Sounds like a good night to partake in filling it, and emptying it, and filling it, and emptying it . . .
Have faith. When the hangover wears off, if you want a better boss, they're out there. Bi**hin don't help much, so get that out of your system first. If you want it bad enough, you'll find someone else who needs what you have, or you'll dive head first into thinking you can make a go of it on your own. But the boss there is the worst one yet :-).
Heck, after this Monday, I'll pour you a pitcher and listen. I'll take Johnny Black neat.
"The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb " lyrics by Roger Waters
Hey mule, I'm in central PA. I own a mule skinning outfit and I might be able to put your services to better use. Just kidding about the mule skinning business.
Where exactly are you. I'm always looking for good talent. In my area and in my experience, framing is not one of your more profitable gigs. Trim can be if you are top of the line, but even then so many guys just want to trim that the price isn't where it should be. Unfortunately in both trades you have to be very efficient to earn a good buck whether you are the boss or the employee. And mistakes can be expensive labor wise in framing, and materials wise in trim. So efficiency and accuracy have to be the key to high take home.
I would say if you want the best wages in this large organization, you would have to be the best in all regards, a tough proposition. Attitude can be the most important attribute an employee can have, but that takes a while to measure.
The simple answer, go in on his terms, or negotiate the best deal up front. Renegotiate when the opportunity arises. Good labor is difficult to find anywhere.
Remember, most employee/er relationships are structured such that you are paid just enough that you don't quit, you work just hard enough that your not fired. Work you #### off and bide you time.
Tom
Remember, most employee/er relationships are structured such that you are paid just enough that you don't quit, you work just hard enough that your not fired.
I sure hope that is not as true as it sounds. When I was working for myself, I tried to always find the guys who were worth what I was paying (and not paying minimum wage, either). (My problem was never getting business, it was not being capitalized enough to afford the '"gov'mint" side of business life--and not knowing some of the options I could have been using, a mistake I will not make again).
Are there crummy bosses, and crummy companies out there? You betcha, I know I've worked for more than my share. I know that seeing inefficiency was(is) a big annoyance factor for me. Seeing the boss spend $10 to pick up a dropped dime (in other words 10¢ gain for $10 expenditure, a net loss of $9.90, "Sorry, but, for some unknown reason, there's just no money for the bonuses we promised y'all this year . . . " Graft by ignorance come in a close second--the CFO hauls off some CMUs for his garden, 'knowing' that there is an allowance for quantity. But forgetting that we have to send the kid and a truck to replace the missing block with $1.35 block from HD--way more than the bulk price for the block.
All in all, there's nothing inherently wrong with a job that drives you to drink--I just think more should take you home afterwards . . .
Why do you want to work in the pit?
Because there's something in it that you want.
Whenever you enter into ANY business agreement, you should understand two things - what's in it for you, and what's in it for the other party. If you can't abide one or the other, you shouldn't enter the agreement.
try the carpenter's union!
Hey Mule,
If the drinking doesn't help, and Tommy B's thoughts can't perk you up, it seems to me like what you could use is a good side project or maybe just find someone who can appreciate what you bring to the jobsite the way you are right now. You're just in a rut.
Or go do some framing in the nice weather, beat the hell out of some nails and wood for a while, it helps you appreciate doing the trim work, especially when the weather gets tough.
If I were you, I'd head up to Canada or Alaska and do some fishing for a week or two, then come back and you won't feel like complaining. Life's good.
Dog
Wow, sounds like a tough decision. If you gotta work for this guy then do it and with a good attitude.
How do you get a raise? Make yourself indispensable. If it means you are the only guy that can trim a staircase with drops then be THAT guy. If it means bringing mama's cookies to share with the boss at lunch then be THAT guy. You have to find out what is not being done that should be done, do it and let the boss know you did it.
Then you have leverage. At that point it's a matter of using the leverage judiciously (sp?).
if this guy frames and trims 300 houses a year he probably doesnt need nor will pay for a good trim carpenter. keep looking theres always work for quality help sometimes you just have to stand your ground to get what you deserve.
well if i could go to Alaska fishing I am afraid, might not wanna come back. i called this guy back and he's going to take me out to a jobsite for an interview with the forman. I am going to try and give it a fair shake. i have had some bad experiences but I am going to try. i will find somthing good about it. I'll keep you posted.
Where there's A wheel there's a way, got any wheels?
Edited 5/19/2003 11:10:00 PM ET by MuleSkinner
Try going to Alaska to fish....................................for a job. I would start in Anchorage.
John Svenson, Builder, Remodeler, NE Ohio (Formerly posted as JRS)
How much should a guy who frames and trims 300 houses a year be able to pay a good trim guy?
I think someone has already alluded to this........if he's trimming out 300 houses a year, he probably can't afford to pay much at all. He's likely low balling to get all those jobs or accepting low balls for GCs and then depending on the financially desperate to be his crew. From where I sit, it sounds like he's a cheap mass producer and that isn't where the money is. That's a treadmill.
He also probably has some "settlement issues" with the "happy" homeowners.
I smell trouble. Hope I'm wrong about all of this.
You might have to do what ya gotta do for the time being, but for the long haul I'd try to find work with someone who does quality rather than quantity. Maybe that someone will turn out to be you.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 5/19/2003 11:37:58 PM ET by GOLDHILLER
"I know the answer is I need money. And its the only thing I can do."
MuleSkinner: Not lecturing here, but first thing is.....give yourself a break. First part I agree with...we all need money and I know I've never got enough. Second part I don't agree with.....As hokey as it sounds you can do anything you want and do what you're doing even better. Like SCRAPR said, "make yourself indespensible." From personal experience, with good and bad bosses I've had, I've felt like you're feeling now. Best thing I did for myself was to kick myself in the a##, quick and hard to adjust my attitude back to the sunny side, and do my best regardless. And if that didn't work, like the other's guys said, I went fishin'. Hang in there and may your miters always be tight and your copes fit perfectly the first time.
Rugby
I know very little of mass production, but unless these guys have a huge company building custom homes, you are doing mass production. To be indispensable you will have to be the fastest one there, because they won't likely have any really tricky stuff. Speed in that business makes the holy bottom line better, which the boss will like. If you don't like racing, which most above average people don't, you better consider this a short term job till the right one comes up. Good luck! Many here are rooting for you.
Dan
Just came back from the Interview. I think, I may have "Gone Fishing". He will call me back this afternoon.
( edited to say): Thanks for all the support no matter what happens, really.
Where there's A wheel there's a way, got any wheels?
Edited 5/20/2003 1:19:28 PM ET by MuleSkinner
I can't snawr as I've nevr wanted to work in a pit.
Never even wanted to be near a pit...unless drinking and loud music was involved.
I try to seperate my money standards from my fun standards.....
I'll say it again.....people treat ya how ya let them.
When I decided to become an employee.....I had a slightly different attitude about such things as I get from reading what you wrote.....
I didn't do on job interviews.......I went to interview potential employeers.
I know I'm good....and I know I can present myself as such.....I went armed with enough info for them to get to know me...but it's a two way street...I also went in with enough questions for me to get to know them.
I turned down more than one offer. Took one that really sucks once I got in...then 2 weeks into that...I was calling again and setting up more interviews after work and on weekends.
Found one place that suited us both. I'd be a fantastic employee for them...they'd provide the upscale work I was angling to get a shot at. Even told the owners I wanted a sneak peak at the inside ops on the bids and such as one one of my other goals in working under someone else was to gain a bit of on the job business training as well.
So...I dunno..why U want to work in the pit?
Not for me......how's the pit lead to bigger and better things?
To me...everything in life is about positioning yourself. Everythings an education. Why would ya wanna position yourself for life in the pit...and spend time learning how sh!t world there?
As Big Mike would say.......follow the money.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite