I have the use of an uninsulated, unheated, 2-bay block building for use as a shop- and I’d like to heat it enough to make winter work bearable. Any suggestions for temporary heat that won’t break the bank or asphixiate me? Permanent installation is not an option.
edited to add there is power to the building….
=====Zippy=====
Edited 1/12/2003 12:02:40 PM ET by Zippy Zoom
Replies
My shop was much the same as you describe. i used a 150k torpedo heater with a t-stat. Smells a little bit, but there was such a high air exchange from the door and open to the rafter roof, that i never had any problems with the fumes from burning kerosene. Noisey, but effective, and only took about 20 minuets to bring the temp up to above fifty degrees. Finishing was a problem and had to be planned so that I maintained the 50+ temp at least eight hours afterward. Storeing glues and finishes was also a problem untill I stared using an old refrigerator and a light bulb to keep things from freezing. I have also used a couple of the propane models to heat the same shop. Noise is still a factor, but you don't get the air turbulance from the blower on the torpedoe type. Both are fairley low cost and low tech. approaches.
Dave
Thanks, Dave. A buddy offered to loan me his kerosene torpedo, so maybe I'll give it a try. He says it sounds like a jet taking off, but if it is only for 20 minutes or so at a time, maybe I can get something done before I go nuts from the noise.
=====Zippy=====
get one of the new 200K btu propane heaters with a 100lb. bottle..
no one wants to use the kero torpedoe since we got the propane
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Zippy, I agree with Mike Smith get a propane heater. I rented one last year and they do a great job without the smell of kerosene. Don't remember for sure but I think the weekly rental rate was in the $100.00-$125.00 range. Used it in a 2 story house, open floor plan about 2400sf insulated, and it brought the temp up quick.Harry's Homeworks
Rhode Island
I've seen a lot of agriculture heaters used as shop heat or job site heaters. I don't recall the brand name but the are propane, thermostat controled and have a small blower. The are all enclosed and have a handle on top to pack it around, I've seen them sit on the floor or hung from the ceiling. I've been going to get one at a sale if I ever run across one. Still can't recall the brand name, I'll see another contractor tonight at the ole sit n' sip, he has one, I'll ask him and get back to you.
Thanks to all for getting my brain working, and pointing me in a few new directions. I tried my buddy's torpedo, and it does the job, but it stinks and is noisy. The propane heaters seem to be the way to go- but there are about a million variations and price ranges within the field, even when they have similar btu output. Research continues while the kerosene burns....
=====Zippy=====
I have a propane salamander w/regulator, tube & fan style prox 50k btu - nice but 17lb propane cylinder is prox $18 refilled here, heater costs about $2/hr to run. Probably too small for your shop but good for my 350 sf, no headaches. Cost $120 at wholesaler. I couldn't put a fixed tank in, no access for heavy truck to refill... is 100 lb cylinder portable? don't think I've seen one.
Don't any of you guys worry about an open flame and sawdust suspended in the air???? Radient heaters work well for warming objects, not the air and are probably cheaper to run, but still have that open flame.
I guess maybe none of you guys have seen the aftermath of a dust explosion. Gives me the willys just thinking about it.
Eric
100 lb. tank is as portable as a refrigerator dolly can make 'em....
eborg...an open flame is an open flame.. and radiant heaters are just as much an open flame.. but i've never seen a job site that had an explosive atmosphere due to sawdust...
we do have to be careful about solvents and other firehazards.. including distance to combustiblesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
We're not talking about a job site, we're talking about a shop. (refer to original post in thread). I don't know about anyone else's experience, but my two bay garage can get pretty thick depending on what I'm up to. The responders are recommending thermostatic controlled bullet heaters which can ignite after a substantial time of being off. If they fire up when there's a lot of dust in the air, well I'll just watch from a distance thank-you.
>>thermostatic controlled bullet heaters which can ignite after a substantial time of being off<<
Could you please explain that? Are you refering to the dust in the air igniting on contact with the internal workings of the heater, or the heater itself igniting after it is off and unplugged?
FWIW, I was using the building primarily for storage, but a need just arose for a spot for some light assembly: mostly glue-n-screw with minimal cutting and sawdust involved. The space available is just right if I can keep my fingers and toes from going numb....=====Zippy=====
Neither.
Space reaches set temp: heater shuts off. Meanwhile, you're sanding up a storm. (visualize a dust cloud surrounding you). Temperature drops, thermostat calls for heat and ignition of the space heater. Heater springs to life, ignites dust, incinerates occupant.
Fair thee well . . .
oh, really ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
STOP!!!!!! STOP!!!!!! STOP!!!!! STOP!!!!!
When I first hung out my shingle I worked out of a 2-bay garage. It worked very well for building cabinets...blah, blah, blah..
Then two years later, after being in a "real" shop, I was on a site with a garage so instead of going back to the shop to fabricate the countertops, I decided to do the laminating/ formica work there. I fired up the PROPANE heater to warm the place up, and concerned about the adhesive fumes and flame combo, I turned it off once it was warm. I rolled out the adhesive to both surfaces but they wouldn't dry. It was too cold. So I moved the heater so it was pointing AWAY from the area and moved it to the furthest corner. Within SECONDS the air became toxic. I could not breath. I paniced, threw open the garage door (thank dog that it did not have an automatic opener) and gasped for air. After a few minutes when I was sure the garage had aired out (Where's a canary when you need one?) I slowly went back in. All my NEW metal tools were rusty/ oxidized. Tools which were overlayed by other tools were unscathed at the overlay. I still use them and remember.
Lesson learned: Fire is not the only thing to worry about with propane.
Edited 1/14/2003 7:06:32 PM ET by Frankie
frankie... what's your point ?
i've been using job heat / temporary heat since '73.... kerosene, electric, gasoline, & propane... of them all , the propane is the best...
none of them are safe, all except the electric have to be used in a ventilated area....
those kerosene torpedo heaters always seemed the worst of the bunch....
we usually use our propane set at the lowest setting of 100K btu... it can crank up to 200K...
in a temporary shop setting , i'd still like the propane... in a permanent shop, i'd go for radiant floor...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Wadda ya mean "what's my point?"
These few lines, I thought, stated it rather well:
"Within SECONDS the air became toxic. I could not breath."
and
" All my metal tools were rusty/ oxidized. Tools which were overlayed by other tools were unscathed at the overlay."
and
"Lesson learned: Fire is not the only thing to worry about with propane."
What's not to get? Note: I did not mention anything about OTHER types of heat. Only PROPANE!!
so, frankie... what happened ?.. what was the link between propane, you not breathing, and your tools oxidizing ?
i'm missing something.. i don't have a clue as to what happened.. and i don't understand what you're trying to tell me about propane...
in NH, we have a propane generator, a propane refrigerator, a propane stove, and a propane furnace..
my 1980 F150 was converted to propane... and i drove it for 5 years...
my office is heated with a propane hot air furnace...
what am i missing ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You too? I am propane from top to bottom, add temp heat. If you don't see me anymore I guess I blew myself up.
I think what Frankie is saying is that propane temp heat has a bad day with VOC's. It is true, and in the case where you work with products that offgas you had better have adequate ventilation. I don't know the tool thing, maybe the moisture given off...
whadda ya suppose ?... what is the byproduct of burning propane... is it different than any other combustion ?
i still don't understand the reaction he described... or what exactly transpired..
c'mon , frankie... gimme a clue
lucy, you got some 'splainin to do
bought a mixed case of magic hat tonite...#9, humble patience, jinx, & heart of darkness.... oh , yeah.... a case of ballantine to wash it down
here, pick one....Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hey, back off! I'm no chemist!
All I know is that I was using the Formica Brand adhesive for laminating. I am pretty sure it was the flamable type. I had 2 faces of 30" x 96" panels spread thin with glue and it was taking forever to dry/ offgas. The garage simply was not warm enough.
When I ignited the propane fueled jet style heater...WHAM. The air instantly became toxic. It was horrible and tasted incredibly harsh. I just got out as fast as I could.
The rust too must have been instant. It formed a solid coating on everything that was steel. My cresent wrench was under my adjustable square. At the overlap there was no rust. Everywhere else, rust.
I figured it was a reaction between the adhesive fumes and the exhaust of the burning propane. Nothing else was in the equation. I still don't know why but I do know how. "How" doesn't get done anymore. My shop had a natural gas fired heater/ blower. Never had a problem. Makes no difference to me. Ain't even gonna try that propane + adhesive thing again. You are welcome to, though.
frankie....you ignited the acetone / toluene from the contact cement....any open flame could have done that... had nothing to do with the fuel..
same thing can, and has, happened with a cigarette....
but hey, whadda i no ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
no flames.
Burning acetone or tolulene causesinstant rust? I thought it might have been a gas reaction which then reacted with any steel in the room.
Regardless, as I stated before, saw dust fire is not the only concern when using propane.
I would reccomend that you bump one of your heating and AC buddies and see if they have a small furnace or propane heater (used) that has to have a flue. And put it in a room all to itself. SAFER!.. In my old shop I had a nat gas furnace and I got it free. In my new shop I have one that hangs from the ceiling. (most adhesive and laquer fumes are ground hugging.)It was free also. The furnaces that I used were all gonna be thrown away anyhow.... I like FREE.. I like Easy too..
Hey! Contact adhesive both flamable and non flam fumes are very corrosive. Try to keep everything up off of the floor.
Edited 1/15/2003 3:16:06 PM ET by Larry
dat u larry.... or is it larry ?
so, what 'cha think... was it the contact cement fumes ... or the propane ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, Tis me... Yep.. I think the adhesive fumes are the culprit. My friend that has a counter top shop sez so. He sez anything that is ferous (iron and steel) will rapidly oxidize. The fumes tend to be ground hugging. Also one of the bi-products of combustion is water vapor. So go figger..
larry... your "why do i forward jokes " was a big hit.. thanks
how's life in that giant cornfield this time of year ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike its colder than heck. I hope you are doing inside jobs this winter. Most of mine are but I still don't like the cold.
About working with fumes and open flames: Anyone who has refinished floors should have seen warnings on the product labels about turning off all sources of ignition; pilot lights, etc. (although I know a lot of people ignore this) The combustion of these 'VOC's (volatile organic compounds) create secondary fumes/exhausts that are very toxic. In fact, the foolish worker who decides to ignore the warning is subjecting all other inhabitants to some pretty bad stuff that lingers, throughout the drying time of the finish, and increased every time the heater kicks on. NOT to mention the explosion hazard.......but I suspect that fire inspectors may find victims who succumbed to the fumes FIRST, then got toasted in any explosion that followed.......At the very least, wicked headaches follow such casual work habits........
As to the "propane" being the 'only' or 'worst' culprit, I suspect that the fact that propane is heavier than air, and tends to collect at ground level and then higher as it accumulates, may have contributed to the experience of 'Frankie'. My experience with propane devices is that they often emit a little free gas in the process of lighting......This may have added to the reaction....... But the problem is NOT restricted to propane.
In any case, it's really the burning flame from a match, a fireplace, a cigarette, a propane heater, a nat. gas heater, a red-hot electric element on a radiant heater-----these are causing the reaction with the fumes. Not trivial. The etching on the metal tools is just part of the chemical reaction happening, this varies with the compounds-----what exactly were you using, Frankie? As to wood dust, it's really a form of russian roulette: the combustible particles suspended in air (this oxygenates the particles) are just waiting for the day that all things are just right for a nifty explosion. You are 'playing with fire' to produce quantities of sawdust around an 'open flame'. There is a reason that dust collection systems are available and recommended.
Many of us have just gotten away with ignoring the possibilities of these threats: but some of us know someone who has 'gotten burned', such as a friend of mine who lit a match in the presence of an open container of gasoline. Not right near it, just in the same garage. Invisible to the eye, gas vapors were pooled at ankle level, and ignited in a flash explosion......skin grafts followed.........p.s. I returned the torpedo propane heater I bought a few years ago on the same day I bought it: while I had seen it's usefulness on job sites where the drywall was going up in EMPTY apartment complexes, I hadn't noted the real fact that it rendered a sizeable portion of shop 'real estate' unsafe to walk near---the 'hot zone' in front of this thing is deadly...and I didn't feel safe leaving it un-attended for a 'preheat period'.
Did ya ever hear about the agnostic dyslexic insomniac?
He laid awake all night wondering if there really is a dog.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?