hi all — I’m a first time poster to Breaktime, although I’ve been visiting as “Guest” for several months and have long been a fan of FHB.
I’ll be building a house soon (it’s more like a large garage apartment), and am looking for places to temporarily economize so I can upgrade other items. I plan on living in this house for at least 10 years, maybe the next 15-20 years, so I’d like to eventually finish this project with a real Craftsman feel. You can see the preliminary design at http://stonemist.com/house.html
I tried to keep the design economical, but I’m afraid I’m headed way over my budget because I love more expensive materials/finishes (not outrageous things like $3,000 sinks, just finishes that are more expensive than what’s found in the average tract house). For example, I’d really like to have a metal roof (classic panel, exposed fastners), clad wood windows (likely Andersen 200 series for most of them), seven nice wood doors (like Simpson Craftsman and Shaker styles), reasonably good kitchen appliances (a good LP stove but not a restaurant stove!), a long/deep bathtub), etc.
After looking through old threads some of the things I’ve thought about doing are:
– finish first floor only through rough-in/drywall
– use T 1-11 as siding for now, then install fiber-cement siding over it later (lap siding on first floor, shingle gable ends, trim with corner boards, watertable, bellyband)
– skip window casing for now, use drywall — maybe with a nice stool and apron
– paint plywood subfloor and install hardwood floor and baseboard later (not fond of this option so it’s a last resort)
Your thoughts/suggestions/design critiques will be appreciated!
Karlyn
Replies
I understand all you are trying to do .............but ............there is nothing more permanent than a temparary .
I hear what you're saying, don, but silly me -- after 25 years and 5 fixer-uppers, I tend to think nothing is permanent. This time I bought 98 acres of land and thought I'd start fresh. Just looking for reasonable trade-offs in case I need to economize in the short-term. Thanks for the thought, though.
That metal roof in terms of cost per foot per year of life expectancy, can be one of the least expensive roofs you could do.
Shape and layout of the building is one of the biggest ways to save. Clustering the plumbing helps which you have done. Those Pentagonal loft windows will not be cheap. I prefer Andersens 400 series over the 200 for maybe 20-30 bucks per unit. The lofted ceilings will be expensive to hang the sheetrock to and finish, more so if you use exposed beams for them to work around.
Choose cabinets carefully. You might get by with no uppers at first to save several hundred. Stay away from granite and Corian tops to save a few thousand.
Overall, it is a very nice design. Looks like it was done on SoftplanCAD.
Your dogs will apreciate all that acreage.
Excellence is its own reward!
Something else for front end savings - All those decks and balconies might not have to be built right away. And how they get detailed can make a difference in cost too. Maybe as much as fifteen grand.
Are you a vet?
Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks for taking the time to comment! I'll get back to the house in another post, but first the personal...
No, I'm not a vet, but dogs and dog rescue are a passion. My crew of three will typically be upstairs, but my foster dogs will start out downstairs until health and temperament are checked. Then I'll rotate dogs up and down. I have bird dogs, and yes, they're looking forward to the fields. It's part of an old farm and I'll be roughing it up a bit to encourage quail, etc. Fencing and landscape will be a priority the first year.
Plans were done in Punch Pro Platinum. It's a little aggravating at times, but at least allowed me to play with options.
Karlyn
Oh hell, another acreage owner is lured to the Taunton family (sigh).
If you need to enhance your acreage w/plants check out Over The Fence in the FineGardening section. If you're close enough to me I can supply you w/excess seeds and vagrant seedling plants that end up in my pathways.
edited to add: Got all distracted w/your acreage and forgot to mention demolitions. If you live in an area(like I do) where older homes are being destroyed to put up hideous new homes, you may want to either contact the owners, demolition companies or the new builders. I bought 2 stories worth of red oak for 300usd. Pain in the buttocks to remove and reinstallation was tricky but I had help.
Life is too short so eat dessert first, especially if it happens to be Cookingmonster's triple cinnamon truffles or her ginger-fig caramels.
Edited 7/3/2003 12:01:18 PM ET by PLANTLUST
Thanks for the demolition suggestion -- I'd thought about the salvage places, but not about the demo possibility.
Thanks too for the "Over the Fence" invitation. I've been focused on the house, but will start planning next year's landscape work this winter. I'm in Virginia, but travel up your way every couple of years... free seed and seedlings, huh? <g>
Karlyn
If there are houses similar to what you want being demoed nearby, consider also buying one complete to be moved. An old friend made a pretty good living 20 - 30 years ago buying vacant land and moving houses onto it on spec.
-- J.S.
Really interesting idea, John. I'll be sitting down with the contractor next week, and if it looks like my plan isn't financially feasible, I may just look for a house to relocate. There's a lot of new road construction in the area...
That's a nice looking house.
As far as economizing?
The exterior I'd do as I wanted it. Particularly the siding and windows. Windows are a pain to replace, and all money you use to do so is a total waste. I don't think you save that much cost T1-11 vs. fiber cement, but could be wrong. Still, I'd do the siding as I wanted it the first time. If it'd save a lot, I'd put up cheap asphault shingles to begin with, then add the metal roof I wanted later over top of that, but only if it was a serious savings. Remember, if one's $3000 and the other is $6000 you'd 'save $3000'. But if you come back in 2 years and put up the $6000 roof, it's actually a $9000 roof. False savings.
If you're planning to finish over something later, try to find used materials to put there. This will save you money, but not time. You are doing most of the work yourself, right??
I'm no expert, but my advice would be to start by finding a building salvage place. See if you can find some cheap used doors for the interior, put in the nice wood doors later (I've bought ok doors for $5 ea.). Perhaps some reasonable used kitchen cabinets, sink, laminate countertops. Kitchens are expensive, save doing your dream kitchen till later. Also look for good used appliances. Often, carpet installers can set you up with used carpet that's in great condition for cheap. Great inexpensive temporary floor covering.
Finish the cheaper rooms the way you want them first. A really nice bedroom is way cheaper then a really nice kitchen or bathroom. economize on the expensive rooms to start, then add the custom cabinets, solid surface counters, fancy tubs, or whatever later. But plan for them up front, both structurally and space wise.
You could hold off on the deck on the end of the house. Plan for it. In fact get the concrete poured for it when the foundation is done, but build it later.
Still, as others have said, temporary fixes often become permanent, so watch out.
Of course, if you're getting a construction loan, the bank may frown on leaving too much unfinished space.
Oh, and build it so you have a reasonable amount of crawlspace so you can get at the mechanicals. In fact, I'd run 3 or 4 wiring circuits that terminated in junction boxes under the house. These spare circuits can be later used for anything you wish. If possible, mark out your wall locations down there so later changes are as simple as possible.
Oh, and have fun.
Thanks Piffin and Billy -- it's nice to have someone to bounce ideas around with.
Billy -- to answer your question about whether I'm doing a lot of it myself -- I'll only be doing a small part of the work -- just what I feel I'm really capable of doing. I've lined up a good GC who does very nice work (definitely not the cheapest), and he's willing to work with me since I have background and experience. He'll take care of most everything up through the drywall finishing. Downstairs will be left at that stage, and I'll finish it later (there will be a kitchenette in the dog room eventually). I'll also be doing painting, cleaning, bathroom tile, cabinet installation, structured wiring, and the rough-in for central vac (for all that dog hair!). I was thinking of having him frame the deck but then do the deck boards and railing later. Definitely will have the concrete done under the deck. Probably will have him finish the balcony except for the railing (something nice but not too fancy in terms of detail).
There won't be a crawl space -- slab on grade, but I will be using floor trusses, so except for the waste pipes, all mechanicals will run through the trusses. I didn't put up the electrical plan up on the web, but it's not something I'm going to skimp on. I work from home (lots of electronic gadgets) and don't want to be running extension cords everywhere.
The roof is a priority -- don't want to spend $3k for the asphalt then turn around and skin over it. Maybe most important factor for me -- the house located on a knoll in open field to take advantage of views to the mountains. I'm located in Virginia (Roanoke/Lynchburg area) and will be very happy to have the metal roof in the summer.
Piffin -- I knew those pentagons were likely gone <g>. I'm sure there's some other interesting thing I could do, and I want to be able to open the window up in the loft anyway. Besides, I need to think about that structural ridge. Thanks for the comment about the Andersen 400's. Maybe I'll at least use them upstairs. Also thanks for mentioning skipping the upper cabinets -- hadn't thought about that. I was thinking of using laminate on the island counter, but maybe butcher block on the back cabinets next to the stove. The beams won't be exposed.
Doors -- sounds like maybe I could skip the upstairs interior doors for now. It's just me and the dogs, and I never use them anyway. Well, maybe I'll put a door on the bathroom so company doesn't feel too exposed <g>.
Again, thanks for taking the time to comment! Yes -- I'm looking forward to having fun!
Karlyn
Glad you got something out of my rantings.
Don't put any weight on the roof #'s. I haven't a clue what it costs to roof a house. Those were just made up #'s.
Just I've seen people do stuff like that the cheapest way, then after a couple years do what they wanted to begin with. Much cheaper to just do it once.
Not doing most of the work yourself makes it even more important that you have it done the way you want it the first time. Since if you have it redone later, you'll pay both labor and materials twice.
Still have fun with it.
I admire your committment to rescue unwanted neglected dogs. Too many of them out there.
Don't worry, wasn't putting any weight on your roof numbers -- but the "false savings" trap is one I want to avoid.
My budget isn't that tight, but I figured there could be things I could finish myself once I'm living there (like the lap siding). I'd probably be doing more of the work if I didn't live two hours from the site.
Again, thanks!
Karlyn
Wow, 4 hour round trip will really limit how much you can do, or how much oversight you can provide.
I'd assume you'll be moving there as soon as it's completed.
Sure looks like decks, fences, and landscaping would be the easy way to save money up front on this project.
Is there a decent road into the building site? If not make sure you figure in road construction costs too. If relatively flat you can just drive a road in at first to save money.
Fortunately I have family that are only about an hour away from the site, so I can get up there at least once a week and I'll have a place to stay when I go up to pull the structured wiring and pipe for the central vac. But yes, to far away for oversight, so finding a good GC became important.
The road, well, and septic have been factored in. As much as I loved a house site at the back of the property, I knew I couldn't afford the road. Someday I think I'll build a treehouse back there -- found the perfect tree.
Ok, you got me curious. What is structured wiring?
Just thought I'd mention the road. My folks owned a place in the mountains. Some people bought the lot on top of the mountain, and the property required to access it. Budgeted $25,000 to put a road in. 1st road was done in budget, but proved unusable in the winter, and the spring thaw tore it up. Time for serious heavy equipment. Add switchbacks, culverts, ect.. Last time I was there it was almost done. Nice road, we walked up it. Dad later told me they spent over $70K on that gravel road. Guess they put a nice double wide on there because they could no longer afford to build the house they wanted. Still find it hard to believe they could get one up there, even with the new road.
I know, I know, unique situation, but I've heard of swampy ground causing similar road building nightmares. Glad to see you're smart enough to figure such things in. Have you also checked what getting electricity to the site will cost you??
The structured wiring bundle takes care of the phone, computer network, and will distribute the satellite connection. I'm not planning on many drops, but will run it to a few strategic locations upstairs and down. Wireless now takes care of most phone and computer network needs. It's not too expensive if I pull it myself, and not difficult to do. People can get really carried away with this stuff -- see http://smarthome.com/.
As for electricity -- I'm about 500' from existing pole, so shouldn't be too bad. Yet another reason to build near the road and not on "the back forty." Fortunately, my road will come in fairly level and dry.
Karlyn
Edited 7/3/2003 3:33:23 PM ET by karlyn
Ah, you were talking about all that high tech computer communication wiring stuff I'm so unfamiliar with. Really should catch up with the times. Maybe even get a DVD player. <G> I was thinking you were on to some new AC wiring system I hadn't heard about. <G>
Will you do any of the plumbing or electrical work yourself? Or, is it even allowed where you are? That's one place I've seen people save a lot of money on building their own home. Mainly because both take lots of time, and a good deal of skill and knowledge, to do right. Of course, if you don't know what you're doing, they also carry the most risk of serious property damage or destruction.
I'd still call on the electrical cost. 500' still means installing 4-6 power poles, depending on spacing; adding a transformer, meter, ect.. Best to know upfront what it'll cost.
That is a good Idea about relocating an older house . I started to build a house on my land ,and my taxes doubled . I was also informed that they were not done raising them yet.
If you want to save money on your vacumm use regular 2" pvc for your pipeing . I used the long sweep elbows and tees on mine . A 10' length of 2" pvc cost about 1/2 that of an 8' length of the thinner vac pipe. For conveniance put an outlet in every room . I set mine up for a floor sweep at each door and one of the counter tops that will have a lot of crumbs generated on it.
About the exposed fastners on the roof .I think that I would look for a roof with covered /hidden fastners . Just less potental for a leek . I hate leeks.
Try to build your house as small as you can . Then make the attic large enough that it can be used for living space after you move in. Basements are another place to add living space with out adding to your tax burden.
When you say "floor trusses" are you talking about stick-built 2x4 trusses, or the I-beam type with ply/waferboard webs? As mentioned, if you're using 2x4 trusses, the truss guy can build the mechanical runs right in if you give him the HVAC plans. Never be afraid to buy the best -- you'll always be happy with it!
My place is 1000' off the road...I buried the primary in conduit, dug the 830' long trench, etc. It was some $4k or so...I did just about everything save the actually backhoe digging. Amazing were those folks will take those hoes...through the woods, down the bank, etc.
Anyways, NYSEG (New York State) told me they'd only run the line I think 100' along the roadway from an existing pole for free...then I pay. Luckily (well, I knew when I bought the land) a pole was close to the road...so we set one pole and met with my buried primary. But be careful...500' might cost a little bit extra...as other's have said.
They quote me some $8K to put the primary in OVERHEAD through the woods...wanted some 20-30' clearance, etc.
I'm a couple hours up the Blue Ridge from Karlyn but for both electric coops that I know and Dominion Power, the major player here, electric installation is 1500-1700' free for overhead. About half that distance for underground before you start paying. Overhead entails 40' wide of periodic cutting.
Our place is a full ½ mile from the nearest pole and 400' elevation up the mountain. Original estimate for underground was $23k. That was cash up front and they'd let me know if it wasn't enough. Majority was for the trench. I now own a backhoe (if you have to pay for one anyway...). The final tab was $5+k, plus the hoe. That trench went down a 60% slope, way too steep to go up, even 4x4. Interesting installation.
The roadbuilder I hired charged $20k for a 30% slope ½ mile driveway. That's way too steep to function well. After several years of trial and error I've found that more than 15% is a problem. Along the way I acquired a track loader and some skills I never knew I needed. Very little of the original road remains after re-siting. Gotta pay to learn, right?
Karlyn should have no problem as long as she doesn't need to get an easement from a neighbor. Virginia doesn't allow land-locked land, but utility easements are something that must be obtained from the property owner(s). Sometimes unavailable. Took me one full year to figure out how to motivate the neighbor.
Building back in the woods has its own challenges, but the reward of living there is incomparable. I assume Karlyn's building site is satisfactory, otherwise there's a whole lot of effort going into the wrong place that a money infusion would solve, sometimes not as much as was assumed. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Thanks VaTom -- I think AEP is similar to the others. Much different from living in NY. As for the easement, I'll have to look at the post at the back of the old homestead and see how close to the line it is. If not, I can come across my land entirely.
Karlyn
Hi Karlyn,
Certainly it's not always a problem obtaining an easement, depends on the neighbor's attitude. 2 times out of 3 I've had no problem whatsoever. But not a given that many assume. I also once got an easement that the previous contract-purchaser failed to get. Different approach.
On a different note, just ordered copper for $1.3767/ft. Lynchburg co., but we get delivery out of Richmond. Around here most of the roofers figure that if you have the money for a copper roof you can afford to pay inflated labor costs too. For us non-roofers with traditional (old-fashioned) seamers, standing seam is as fast as nailing asphalt shingles. You're going to be hiring the work out so will be at the mercy of the local labor, but you should keep in mind the small material cost difference for a life-time roof.
Mostly we use the copper as siding and all exterior trim, usually not roofing, but it's the same stuff, 16 oz.
Happy planning!PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
> On a different note, just ordered copper for $1.3767/ft. Lynchburg co., but we get delivery out of Richmond.
Can you get me contact info on your supplier? I'm getting quotes at $2.25, at that rate it would save me the better part of a grand to ship it from your source.
Thanks --
-- J.S.
Hi John,
N.B.Handy is where I got mine. 800-288-6242 is the Richmond, Va. number. The other branch I know of is Lynchburg, 800-288-6242. That price was for 16 oz., either 3'x10' sheets or1000 lb rolls. 500 lb rolls slightly higher. Of course they have everything else to go with it.
There was another supplier in Richmond, name escapes me, that was part of a multi-state organization. Last time around was slightly cheaper but when the COD came out they insisted on a SS#. I suggested they call my bank or take my drivers' license #. They ended up taking the copper back to Richmond (1+hr). I dug up the email address for the co. president in NJ, but he didn't bother to respond. Cash I would have done if they'd asked, but SS#, no way. This was MOST unusual for a company to act around here. Yankee company, oh well. Normally just a check, with the assumption that it's a good one, is fine.
If these 800 numbers won't work for you, give a yell and I'll find out what else will. My client was relieved to see 59 sheets show up yesterday. It's siding to us, cheap siding. They don't have the copper rivets we use however.
Good luck. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Thanks very much, Tom -- I'll give them a call when it's business hours on the East coast.
-- J.S.
She's talking about factory built trusses, made of 2X4s laid flat.
The "I-beam type things" you refer to are I-joists. Out of my mind. Back in five minutes
"...I will be using floor trusses, so except for the waste pipes, all mechanicals will run through the trusses."
I saw that comment, and one thing popped into my head I wanted to pass along.
As the unofficial resident truss guy, I've done a lot of floor truss jobs. Most of the time the mechanicals aren't a problem. But once in a while I have a homeowner call me after their roof is on and say: "My HVAC guy can't get the ductwork where he wants it, and wants to cut a bunch of the webs out of the floor trusses. Is that O.K.?"
Basically the answer to that is no - You're pretty much screwed at that point. If you want HVAC runs in floor trusses, it needs to be worked out BEFORE anyhing is built. The VAC guy and truss guy should be willing to get together and work things out.
This may or may not be an issue with you - I don't recall if you said what kind of heating system you were using. Just thought I'd mention it.
Seeing you mention dog runs and such made me think of a house near here that I did trusses for. The dogs had 3 of their own rooms to run around in on the main level. One was a sun room complete with a bay window. Another room had a wet bar in it. (I assume for feeding/watering) Don't remember what was in the 3rd room. But the woman had a lot of dogs. Must've had a bunch of money, too.The lottery is a tax for people who are bad at math.
I was hoping you'd stop by... was going to ask you about approximate truss depth. Here's the link to the floor plan. Trusses will span the 30' width with intermediate bearing at about 20'. Main living space is on second floor, so want stiff design. I was just wondering about approximate so I can think about sectional details. I've been using 14" for the preliminary design.
Thanks for reminding me that the truss guy and the HVAC guy need to coordinate. I'll have either a heat pump or ac with furnace. Won't be deciding until I talk to HVAC guy about the alternatives.
There's a truss mfr in Salem, VA that has a nice showroom. I was in there not too long ago to look and really paid attention to the allowance for the hvac trunk. I figure the trunk can parallel the intermediate bearing wall, so am hoping it'll be fairly easy to coordinate.
I have an associate's degree in civil engineering technology, emphasis on structural design -- no one better hack up my floor trusses <g>!
I have a friend like the woman you describe -- her dogs have a sunroom, etc. I don't have her money, though, so my crew will have less deluxe space...
Karlyn
Oh gosh - You're an engineer ???
Gotta tell you a joke then - Did you know if you took all the engineers in the world and laid 'em end to end, they wouldn't reach a conclusion?
Sorry - Couldn't resist................................(-:
On the floor trusses - I'm generally O.K. with floor trusses spanning 20' or so that are 14" deep. But on your floor plan I noticed that your garage jumps out another 2' or so at one of the doors, which would be a different story.
If you can stand the height, I'd suggest going with an 18" deep floor truss. That will easily span the 22' or so to the 2nd garage bay. And an 18" deep floor truss has a LOT of room for mechanicals. Should allow you to get everything in the floor system, and have a drywalled ceiling in the garage for fire safety. The added cost should be fairly minor.
Being as you're an engineer type, you might be interested in the thread I did a while back on Floor Vibration.
One thing that caught my attention in your last post was the comment about the HVAC duct being "parallel the intermediate bearing wall". Duct chases have to be roughly halfway between bearing points, give or take a foot or so. That means you can have a duct run about 10' from the front of the garage, more or less. Another one is theoritically possible behind the bearing wall, but it wouldn't do you much good.
Please keep us posted on the project. It's kinda fun to hear people going through this stuff. Bumpersticker: If you can't see my mirrors, it means I've hit another cyclist.
Rustycas -- I'm planning on using the 2x4 stick-built trusses, not the I-joists. Even though I'm trying to economize in some places, I thought they'd be worth it. GC seems to agree, so that's the way we'll go. The fact that I can tuck everything up in the trusses really appeals to me.
Boss Hogg -- I was just an engineering technician, not a full-fledged engineer. I haven't worked in that field for years now, so probably shouldn't even call myself a tech anymore. But I appreciate the joke! Check out http://www.destefanoassociates.com/stuff/jokes.asp for more chuckles courtesy of some structural engineers.
Thanks for the guidance on the truss depth. I keep forgetting I pulled that bay out 2'. The 18" height is no problem, so I'll plan for that instead of the 14". Thought maybe the chase could be about 5'-6' south of the bearing point, so that restriction is good to know too. I read the vibration piece not too long ago -- very informative. This forum has been a tremendous resource!
I'll definitely be back for show and tell as this progresses....
PIRGERBRUCE and Billy
Will definitely get the scoop from the electric company (AEP) next week. There's a post at the back of the old homestead out by the road, which will get my line started about 100' off the road. Was thinking I'd come back one post, then drop it underground. I had talked to the well guy about running the electric and water line in the same trench since the two could easily be aligned and the well is about 200' from house. He told me there's no restriction on doing that, but he'd prefer not to. Said he'd talk to me more about it when he starts to drill. I have guesses as to why he wouldn't want to do it, so we'll see.
Ah, NYSEG -- I remember them well (used to live near Binghamton). I won't tell you what AEP charges....
Billy -- I need to check and see how much of the electrical I'm allowed to do. I think I just need to be supervised, which could work. I've done most of the circuit planning, and I'm capable of setting boxes, pulling wire, connecting outlets, etc., but I won't touch the panel. I'll pass on the plumbing rough-in, too. Foremost in my mind is that I don't want to be interfering with the GC's schedule.
Piffin -- good point about the door to the deck -- last I knew, I just needed to put a railing outside the door to satisfy everyone. Haven't done much work in Virginia for 10 years, though, so I better check. Figured I should leave off the jambs, too. I'll plan for the rough opening of the doors I want, drywall over for now, and then remove when I'm ready? Thanks for the shingle vs. metal numbers, it's really not that much more for a much better roof. I like the idea of salvage, too, and will be hunting for stuff I can use, but don't want to annoy the contractor. At least some of it gets re-used these days. It used to break my heart to watch old homes get carted off to the landfill.
In terms of environmental conscience, I like the idea of salvaging but if you are hiring a contractor, it will cost more to do it that way.
You could have insurance problems with a deck framed but not skinned over or railins on. You'll maybe need to screw the door shut or something to satisfy them on that - same for codes enforcement.
The dogs wouold like you to leave the door off the bathroom too - so they can get a drink from the fountain.
;)
Installing door jambs but no door is half the work. Better to hang half the doors and leave jambs off too. My house has doors in the formal half. Wife still wondering when we get closet doors.
When Idid my roof, it was going to cost me 52 cents a foot for shingles vs. about .77 for metal. Prices are higher now but that could dofor comparison.
Excellence is its own reward!
Yes, if you can find out the brand, that would be great. Thanks!
killasonna,
RE> "Yes, if you can find out the brand, that would be great. Thanks!" <
I'm not sure what you're referring to?