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Andrew, if you are interested, you should take a look at “A Pattern Language” by Christopher Alexander. This is the basis for a lot of what Susan says. I think that Alexander is better in that it explains the what and why of each “part”. This allows you to take what you need and leave the rest. Susan’s book has nicer pictures though and is tuned for the American market.
I will agree that a lot of this is used as marketing, but I honestly don’t believe that it will make the builder’s lives more difficult. If anything, it should make things easier. Logical and usefull design will promote logical construction. And perhaps some people will appreciate a “better” house enough to insist on inproving other things as well (shopping malls, grocery stores, the government…).
Replies
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Patty, I'll second that! And don't feel concerned about speaking out of turn around here, that is all everybody ever does...and these guys are generally pretty darn tolerant if you speak your mind and can back it up.
One of the things that the real estate industry still can't quite seem to get a grasp on is that the demographics of the American family have drastically changed. Single parent families, blended families (I love that term - makes me think of daquaris), childless professionals and empty-nesters, families with live-in adults (parents and kids), etc. all need different kinds of spaces than the "traditional nuclear" family. They buy the stuff that is out there because there isn't enough of what they really need around. Chad, if you build it they will come. And as for resale, just remember that if you can sell it to begin with, you're set, because there will only be more of these varigated family types in the future. Lisa
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Lisa, the reason were so tolerant is because we're empty headed. You know, tradesmen, oops, tradespersons.
We rarely know what each other is talking about. If a guy says he can make his septic churn out drinking water, I believe!
Anyways, I wanted to throw in my two and a ahalf cents (inflation), about selling a house. Remember, you heard it here first, there is a buyer for every house, and a house for every buyer!
My oldest sister is proof. She bought two of the rattiest houses that I could conceive of, and to my great surprise, found a buyer to sel them too!
You can safely tell chad, that no matter what his house looks like, someone will want it!
Blue
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Yes Blue, we know about you. But we like you anyway. and I sure hope your truism woks for me, otherwise I'll make you buy my house!
We have been believing (or at least voting into office) for years in people who say they can churn sewage into wine (or whatever). At least this is testable (or if it fails-detestable).;-p
I too am off to the slopes - just to look at em, being too(o) smart to fall down em.
Lisa
Be wary of strong drink, it will make you shoot at tax collectors, and miss! (RAH)
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Bea
C'mon down east-a ways. . . we gots plenty 'o pine and lakes, and passable air. . . cept when Ohio is belching our way.
*Take it one step further, blue: there's a buyer for every PRODUCT (no matter how dumb), and vice versa. The Subaru Brat is proof of that.Jim
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Lest we not forget the social changes the big house (and income) have given us.....
We don't need to go to the show with friends, we can stay home and watch it in the home theater off the satllite.
Why go out to eat, we can nuke a gourmet meal froma box, flip it on a platter and invite the Jones' over to envy our big gourmet kitchen while sipping wine from the cellar downstairs.
Don't bother getting a motel room Bob, we've got guest rooms abound around here.
Church? I don't have time for that. I'm washing my cars in the 4 stall shrine of transportation.
I don't think I'll support the local stores this year, they don't have what I'm looking for; I'm going to do all my Seasonal shopping on the Internet this year.
I think I'll drop my membership at the gym, afterall we've got that stair-stepper, the flexy thing and a stationary bike in the bedroom. They do make very good coat racks as well!
I just love the back yard now that you've put up the six foot fence, we're so much safer now, not to mention the neigbors won't see us slipping into the hot tub.
.....just some more food for thought.
Chad.
*Lest we not forget the social changes the big house (and income) have given us.....We don't need to go to the show with friends, we can stay home and watch it in the home theater off the satellite.Why go out to eat, we can nuke a gourmet meal froma box, flip it on a platter and invite the Jones' over to envy our big gourmet kitchen while sipping wine from the cellar downstairs.Don't bother getting a motel room Bob, we've got guest rooms abound around here.Church? I don't have time for that. I'm washing my cars in the 4 stall shrine of transportation.I don't think I'll support the local stores this year, they don't have what I'm looking for; I'm going to do all my Seasonal shopping on the Internet this year.I think I'll drop my membership at the gym, afterall we've got that stair-stepper, the flexy thing and a stationary bike in the bedroom. They do make very good coat racks as well!I just love the back yard now that you've put up the six foot fence, we're so much safer now, not to mention the neigbors won't see us slipping into the hot tub......just some more food for thought.Chad.
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Sounds reasonable to me!
Blue
*....and what's a "Keeping Room"?
*Patrick,......and you have black fly season too!!!Chad....generalizations,generalizations! So what's your point again? Big is bad, small is good, right? Sounds like you've been hanging with the wrong crowds...sift throught the pile and you may be surprised to find some "real" people at the bottom of it. They are there! No Jones' welcome here,Beatrix
*Hey, Chad, sounds like the life for me!i *snort*Hey, don't those people have to go to the grocery to get those nukeable meals? And what the hell's wrong with a fence, especially if you want some, er, privacy on your backyard deck? Wine cellars? How many people do you think actuallyi havewine cellars? And I would think that guest rooms would make a house pretty cozy and friendly (actually, we have one guest room and plenty of "guest space"). And if I wash my car(s), that's a sure sign that I don't go to church? One more thing: I think it's reallyi rudeto leave the Joneses upstairs in the gourmet kitchen while the host and hostess are in the wine cellar boozing it up!With Tongue (somewhat) in Cheek, Patty
*A clean car is a ticket to hell! The end is near (Y2K)! Repent! No more car washing! Virtue is a dirty car! : )Rich Beckman
*Rich, then I am the most virtuous woman in the Deep South! I have lots of pollen and lots of trees in my yard, so my Honda looks like it spent the night in the Audubon Zoo aviary, not to mention it looks like it got a bad yellow paint job. (Okay, I confess: I hose off the windshield every morning - am I still virtuous?)Patty, Who Has Not Worried About Virtue in Quite a Long Time
*BeaNaaa. . . Northern Ontario, where you i pineto be, has black flyb seasonWe have black fly week,(sometimes two(o))i best of both worlds = small house, big wine cellarUrrp!! - Patrick
*Patrick,Big house, small but always full wine cellar.Lots of good friends and family to share it with. Plus, live close to the Niagara wineries.....some of the finest in the world! Now, that's living!Beatrix
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Niagara? Fine Wineries? That's an oxymoron! FYI- My family and I inhabit 2541 square feet. A freestanding 2 car+ garage, a single car shop/storage bldg, 40 acres of arid scrub-land, drive gas hogs, sports cars and 50's cars and tractors, have much of what I bring up in discussion, pay out too much in mortgage/insurance/taxes every year (month?), etc., etc. I'm not downing anyones choices or lifestyles, I'm just blabbering about what I see in my community, my state and my country. The "ideal little 40's and 50's community" is for the most part gone. Many of us would like to think that it was a simpler time, that there was a stronger sense of communitiy at that time and that there was more time invested in family and friends. But hey, I'm only 35; how the heck would I know?
I do know I moved out of town so I wouldn't have to look at my stupid neighbors pile of junk in the yard against the fence, so I wouldn't have a street light shining in my bedroom window at night and so the kids could play in the yard without some drunk driving up on the sidewalk and running them over. I'm not an angry person or bitter.
I enjoy the B.S. that passes to and fro here.
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The question cannot be answered until we know if you hose it off on SUNDAY morning? Remember, this is about missing church to wash your car!
Hosing off the windshield Monday through Saturday is O.K.
Rich Beckman
*Sounds like fun to meDennis
*O.K. Ontario makes b greatwines, France makes b finewines! I'll concede. We've won many international awards though!Size is relative. Who really cares, or should care about how big your house is, but yourselves?Now functional quality I don't see as being relative, and cheap is just that, cheap. When I wrote in my intital post about "having it all", I meant it. It just rattles me to hear so many generalizations. Maybe we do have a bit of "Mayberry' here, there's no scientific basis for it, but it works. Snow ball effect maybe? Proud homeowners (and renters too) of various backgrounds who work together to build a "community". But, having neighbors at the front, and trees, a stream and no lights at the back--that's having the best of both worlds! That's not luck- it's having a real estate agent who will pound the pavement for you!Beatrix
*i Whew!I only hose off the car on Monday through Saturday!Actually, I won't let my husband mow the yard (that sounds awful!) on Sunday, a holdover from my daddy, though I never knew why. I just think it's rude to have a mower running on the one day that people can sleep in and the one day it's supposed to be relatively quiet. My mother-in-law, who was an incredible seamstress, wouldn't even pick up needle and thread on Sunday; said for every stitch you took, the devil would take one in your mouth (I guess like sewing your lips together.) Imagine the analogies in renovation and building...Patty, Not Mowing or Hosing, but Stitching on Sunday
*... sounds like a "on the Seventh Day he rested" tradition ... a nice one with or without the religious content. In Massachusetts, the "blue laws" among other things provide that bottled alcohol may not be sold on Sunday. Archaic, but it does mean all the liquor store employees get the day off, maybe hang with their families. I found that I could manage to stock enough to pull through Sunday on my own -- the football crowd was the one that ran dry and drove to New Hampshire. (They finally killed the law that required stores to cover up the panty hose display on Sunday, not that it ever inconvenienced me. :))
*Has it occurred to anyone that washing off the protective layer of dirt would actually shorten the working life of a vehicles finish?Just wondering, JonC
*BeaSettle down girl. . . there are ab coupleof great wines made in Ontario, a lot of swill, and some down right dreck. . . the French, bless their arrogant little hearts, seem incapable of making swill or dreck in wine or cheese(in things political they are ever bottom feeders) The awards thing seems totally artificial.Supporting your right to strut. . . a little-Patrick
*......so then you drink the great ones...that's easy! The fine wines you savor, just as you would a fine built home.Ever had an Ontario ice wine? They're the cream of the crop.It's much easier to spend an afternoon on a free wine tour here, than it is to "hop" over to the land of Bordeaux for a day!Beatrix
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The French are quite capable of making swill in wine. Perhaps we just don't import it.
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I think their swill beats our swill. I'd rather get plastered on the cheap there than here, anyway -- at least I wouldn't risk dissolving my teeth.
*Andrew, those old Blue Laws! I remember, when I was growing up in SC that you could buy soap, but not shampoo - and the rest of the law made about as much sense!Jon, no, no - that'si waxingyour car that ruins the finish! Of course, it would be easy to convince me that washing does the same thing...Patty
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Andrew,
Remember the blue law about election days? All the bars and liquor stores had to close...it's election day here (state and municipal) and the bars are doing just fine...
And yes, I voted, I ALWAYS do. Have you guys voted in local stuff lately???
Civicly, Lisa
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"Have you guys voted in local stuff lately???"
Yes, but only if drunk.
*Lisa, with people like David Duke running for office, you'd better believe I vote!Patty, civiclyi anddesperately!P.S. For those who have to ask, no, I did NOT vote for Duke (but you would be surprised at some of the people who did)
*Here's David!!!
*A.J., youi rascal!I went to the online store, and am thinking about ordering one of those "high-quality, very special hats," except I don't know how high the point is on the top. Probably not as high as the Grand Dragon's, anyway.Patty
*Stop! Your increasing his hit count. He might conclude that he is the voice of the people. Duke has a pointy hat all right.Have any of the builders been approached my someone saying, "I want a small house"?
*
Taunton will love me for posting a reference to their book... Maybe they'll even put more $$$ into this board...
*A propos the "insanity" threads on big house building, NPR broadcast an interview with author/architect Sarah Susanka re her book. It is quite good and addresses a lot of practical issues raised by builders here such as the tension between making the house you want and making the house good for sale/resale. Pleasantly, the discussion is firmly grounded in common sense and not high falutin' concept talk.The RealAudio recording (not a great one unfortunately) can be accessed at http://www.wamu.org/ram/r2990326.ram (I'm listening to it now in the background ... WAMU is a local station that produces the Rehm show).If I messed up the reference, visit the Diane Rehm site: http://www.wamu.org/dr/. Ms. Susanka also has a Web site: http://www.notsobighouse.com.Comments? Hope y'all find this interesting.
*Andrew,It's interesting that Susanka considers a 2500 SF home for two a "Not So Big House." Seems kinda like a not so big deal to me, or maybe I'm just not running with the right pack.Also interesting are the links at her website. "Sacred Places" will take you to a collection of giant palaces, pyramids, etc. "Not So Big Houses of the Past" will take you to Frank Lloyd Wright, whose motto was "Why build a big house, when enough money could get you a bigger one?"We--individually and collectively--would all be better off with smaller, more efficient houses. I don't know, maybe hers is a step in the right direction, though it seems to me to be more about marketing than truth.
*I guess I should jump right out there and say I'm not endorsing her or her book (which I've not read). But I do like her emphasis on the -function- of living spaces, how we use them.In the interview, though, she argued that people are getting more interested in living smaller and gave some examples of -really- cramped but comfortable living. Is this true? Every new or radically remodeled house I've seen recently has these vast first floor rooms with nearly no walls and other big, wasted "dramatic" space. Nice for parties, but otherwise I think you'd actually find yourself running out of room. One thing Susanka talked about is the need for places to hide! (Out of earshot of the Nintendo for example.)Do people know what they want, or do they just go for what they're told they want? I just thought the interview would be of interest, and like that it can be pulled off the Web at will.And I think 2500 sf for two is pretty big unless you entertain a lot. I think we 3 have about 1700 sf, depending how how tall you are and how habitable you find the basement (oops, "lower level" -- my wife's office will be down there) -- lots of small rooms, but the thing seems huge to me (nearly lifetime apartment dweller).P.S. For gene l.: SS claims "Just as a house in a cold climate would never be built without a furnace or boiler today, the house of the future will not be constructed without an air-to-air heat exchanger." Whaddyathink ... and when you were spending $35 to heat for the winter, how much did electricity for the AAHE cost? Don't they consume 100W or so?
*IMO, the average consumer builds with little thought towards their own wants/needs/desires. Most of the design is geared toward what is publicly "expected" in a house. Unless you are a truly bizarre individual, your individualistic taste will more likely make your house a bit unique and more appealing. I do think the exterior should blend in the community and setting, but the interior is yours to destroy as you choose.Getting away from design in terms of wall location, etc, most folk are fearful of even straying from the myriad variations of beige when it comes to painting. Customizing can cost or save money in construction. You need to have experience with a design style before latching on to it, though. I know many couples who, in spite of many warnings, were determined to have the wide, open great rooms, only to discover the acoustical properties of the design when the kids awoke to begin the day at 6:00am. Reflective walls and open design brought every noise into every bedroom. Some lived with it, some remodel, some move.It's the uneducated consumer that accepts and even demands,in some instances, inadequate and even non-working shelter. Couple that with the builder concerned with just getting to closing and getting the house off his books, and we have much of the housing we see today.When the houses are big, empty and $$ to heat, we seek cozy. When the houses are cozy, they seem cramped and we seek big. The only constant in this industry is change.
*Let's face reality people. What Susanka pushes in her book means nothing but trouble for those of us who want to build houses or sell building systems for a living. Buyers already expect more than what most of them can afford. Now they are going to want the contrived Susanka cuteness stuff too.I bought the book, read it, liked it.But remember that all this hype is intended to do just one thing - sell more books.And Susanka isn't really pushing anything new, it's just in color this time.And what she wants people to get out of this bookis the notion that you can't have the house you want without using an architect. Which is pure BS.I've been in a Susanka & Company house. Not impressed at all. Too big. Too contrived. Too much money.A real contribution that a NG like this could make is to expound on the concepts of simple homes. Not cheap trash. But quality living spaces at reasonable costs.
*Lew:Need explanation of NG. New Girl? Newt Gingrich (sp)? I heard part of the interview on WAMU on the way to work on my way-to-big house. In its design my wife and I opted for closed in rooms rather than the normal wide open spaces found in the McMansions around here. We tried to think of how we were going to use spaces for us rather than thinking of resale value or the next occupants. Also lucky we were that both of us liked the same Georgian Style of brick houses found here in Historic Virginia. I do agree that houses need to be designed for the way the occupants really live, and not to impress the rest of the world. Too much wasted space in most larger floor plans I looked at for ideas. And way too much wasted space in regular roof trusses when a 8 in 12 pitch roof is needed to balance the look of the house. Houses need to KISS, or as Volkswagen said "Think Small".Frank
*Sorry Frank. Too lazy to type News Group. Lew Miller****************************************************Chequamegon Bay Web - Lodestar of the Apostle Islands http://www.marlew.com****************************************************
*Good Morning Andrew,Small is definitely the way of the future for most retired or nearly retired couples.Most of my house designs in the smaller is better catagory are 1 1/2 storey and make full use of the basement.However, the majority of clients want everything on 1 level, no stairs, lots of entertaining room and still be able to afford to heat the place. The entry is now the main foyer, the family room is now the great room, the utility kitchen has become the center piece etc.Who said that wisedom comes with age and dreaming is for kids?
*It's unfortunate that so many "late-middle aged" types, as well as thei trulyelderly are fixated on 'one level living'. . . being concerned with their own futurei mobility.My own elderly mother lived on in our family home, by herself, into her late 80's, and even though she was frail, and suffered from back and joint problems, the fact that she had to climb stairs regularly throughout the day, moving back and forth from bedroom, to kitchen, to laundry, to living room, etc. helped her physical fitness enormously.i . . . A fan of multi level living-physically & philosphically!!
*I remember once years ago I went to see a friend of mine who dealt in classic and unusual cars; he and his bother found them, rebuilt them, drove them, sold them when somebody would pay enough. While I was there a woman brought her sixteenish daughter to see and drive this cute little pink Isetta. (Remember those quaint 3-wheel jobs--I think BMW might have made them--with the door that opened frontwards? Really odd looking, but fetching, vehicle.)Well, Miss Sweet Sixteen clearly didn't know what to think of the car, but she and mom drove it off for a test drive. I said to my friend: "I can't tell if she likes it or not." He thought for a second, and said: "She'll like it if her friends like it."Sadly, whether it's deciding about a vehicle or house or spouse, the majority of the lemmings out there just follow the other lemmings, without much thought about, um, why.Jim
*Andrew, if you are interested, you should take a look at "A Pattern Language" by Christopher Alexander. This is the basis for a lot of what Susan says. I think that Alexander is better in that it explains the what and why of each "part". This allows you to take what you need and leave the rest. Susan's book has nicer pictures though and is tuned for the American market. I will agree that a lot of this is used as marketing, but I honestly don't believe that it will make the builder's lives more difficult. If anything, it should make things easier. Logical and usefull design will promote logical construction. And perhaps some people will appreciate a "better" house enough to insist on inproving other things as well (shopping malls, grocery stores, the government...).
*I must admit, I have no idea why people build houses that are clearly bigger than they need. But, I have noticed that many of us buy very big trucks. I am just an advanced DYI, but have you ever calculated the cost of a big pick-up compared to having materials delivered? There is no way most of the builders need more than a compace for tools - if they want to make a profit. See Blue's post on trucks for more on this. I suspect it is the same idea. Second, I have tried to build some of the things I see in FHB. Forget a budget, forget reason, bring money, and bring time - in some cases years. You are going to need a Joe Fusco to do much of the work shown in any of these books - and I'll bet that the Joe Fusco's not only don't come cheap, many of them will be similar to the characters in the movie "The Money Pit". A big room doesn't cost much more to build that a small one, and what is the ground for except to cover with a house? Dennis
*Dennis,,I'm a fan of smaller can be better.The biggest challenge is to make a smaller footprint attractive to the general public.The fun part is creating beautiful rooms for people to enjoy. A small room that will be used as a den/office/library combination, is much easier to add luxurious touches than a large room. For example, real wood panels with real wood raised picture framed accent pieces are much more affordable in a room that measures 8 by 12 than one that measures 16 by 20. If you apply the same budget to both rooms, one has fake paneling and the other real cherry veneer panels with real cherry trim.This type of logic, I think, goes a long way in deciding what size a room or an entire house should be.Do you design and build a house for the exterior impact on your neighbours or do you build it for your personal quiet enjoyment?
*Who the H*ll cares!!!!!We all worry about our neighbor's waaaaaaaaayyy tooooooo muuuuuch!What's wrong with keeping our eyes on our own property!...Instead of "Keep Off" or "No Trespassing," people should posts signs that say,"Curb Your Eyes!" and or "Shut up already....Anybody believe in freedom?"...I do.Freely, near the stream,JI do think Lisa's onto something worthy for sure, but there are always many sides to a coin...
*Thanks for adding my two cents Jack!How hard is it to figure out that there are 200 million different people, with 200 milion different tastes, in houses, cars, lot sizes, quality concerns, etc., etc., etc.!Must I spell it out? There is no right house for everyone!I'd live in my barn, if I wasn't married! Blue
*"Welcome!" works for me.Beatrix
*I am somewhat eccentric. I have gotten away with doing it my way, thought I realize that time is passing. I build for myself - but with an eye towards a budget and resale if necessary - so far haven't had to do that, but we all pass from this earth someday. I love the little touches, but in my hands and the hands of those who have worked for me, they are very time consuming, and the materials are very expensive. Witness door casing. Menard's in La Crosse is selling Oak 2 1/4 x 3/8 colonial for .50 per foot. My current home has 2 1/2 x 3/4 custom milled oak and if I recall it was about $2-$3 per foot. I am splurging on the kitchen area in my La Crosse project, and a small boutique lumber yard just delivered some select maple for two window extensions for about $100. Still need to buy the casing and am uncertain of whether I will continue the Shaker, Craftsman (don't any of you designers get down on me for not knowing the exact difference, please) look or just go with ranch maple. Dennis
*I just got through designing and building a small house so that it would feel big. Now I find out that the newest trend is to build big houses and make them feel small. Go figure.All this is market driven in the end. My research indicated pretty clearly that the market for the smaller, better quality, new houses that I wanted to build was not 1st time buyers but boomers trading down. A completely different animal. Someone who has probably maintained several different houses in their lifetime and wants a new house because he doesnt want to have to fix it.1st time buyers generally want the biggest prettiest house they can get and they'll pay for the neighborhood too. Try explaining to a 1st time buyer why a house designed with no valleys in the roof in a high rainfall area is a good idea when they are looking at a house with 5 gables on the street side for "curb appeal". (the fact that none of those gables gain any more usable floor space or light for the house is moot) Point that out to someone who's paid for several roofs in his life and is buying new to avoid maintainence and its a completely different ballgame. The same goes for copper plumbing, furnaces etc.Heck, first house we bought, I didnt even know where the furnace was until after closing. Found out what brand that same year when I had to replace it.I'll try to target the part of the market I want, but in the end I'll build what I can sell. JonC
*BeaI've been biting my tongue over your responses for too long, it's gettin sore. . .you're just too(o) gosh darn gushy gooey nice.. . enough already!!! Are you a resident of Stepford or whaaat???
*Patrick,It's that "fresh" southern Ontario air blowing off of the lake, that does it to me!Beatrix
* BeaWhoopsI might be breathing the same air. . . just where is this ideal community of yours? Gawd. . .. don't say Mississauga, or Borington!!!The air is freshaeri eastof T.o.
*More than 3?-- the metaphor police
*Patrick,truer words were never spoken....
*Well, heck, maybe I'm speaking out of turn (not unusual), because I haven't visited any of the above-mentioned links, but since when was 2500 sq. ft.i nota big house? Huh? I have 2400sf, and I think I live in a mansion, especially when I have to clean it, heh. As far as "dramatic" spaces, many people would consider 11+ foot ceilings dramatic, but I save quite a lot on energy costs in the summer, no small thing in the Deep South! As far as buying/building for resale value, I figure my house is a personal, enormous investment, and I'd better damn well love it! If I need to sell, well, there are plenty of crazy people out there who would love to sink their money into an old house! It's such ani emotionaldecision, no matter what anyone says! And I agree with Patrick (was it Patrick?): all of the wonderful old, active people I know are often forced to be active because they won't give up their respective houses. Hey, Gabe, if dreaming is for kids, then I never grew up - and I don't want to! : ) Patty
*Patrick,No, too close to Toronto. I'll agree with you on the fresh air though. You get far too much snow over there for my liking. Maybe we can agree on this-isn't it the northern Ontario air that we all really "pine" for? I could be equally as content in a rustic 3 room cottage on a lake up there!Beatrix