This could also go under new tool bought today. I just purchased a Jobclock system from Exaktime, as advertised in Builder Magazine among others. I don’t know how many others have run into time card issues, but it’s something we’ve struggled with off and on over the years. Typically we have a crew of 6-8 people but sometimes bring in some extra help for larger jobs. Even with my core guys, there are times when at the end of the week, some guys are trying to remember what they did on monday or if they had 8 or 8 1/2 hrs, etc. Or Jim Bob actually showed up 10 minutes late and left 5 min. early, took a little extra time at lunch, etc, etc.
I give a speach about how important it is to keep close attention to recording times and for a while it’s good, then it starts slipping again.
Well, I’d looked at this Jobclock system but thought it seemed pretty pricey, until we just got a very large job that will require me to hire quite a few extras for the entire winter, at a prevailing rate of about $30 per hr. and I figured here’s the chance for this system to pay for itself quickly. Just finished installing it and am really impressed with all the reports and features it has. They recommend keeping manual timecards for the first few weeks along with the electronics to give everyone a chance to get used to the system. It records time by the hr. and minute so you can keep close track of actual time on site. Of course you still need to make sure guys are actually working when they are there. I figure on this job, it should pay for itself twice over in time card error easily. Anyone else with larger crews tried this yet?
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you dont have to be big to have time card issues
I constantly have to ask, well hey didnt you come in late that day
oh yeah
or didnt you take a long lunch because the weather was good, yor bike was running good, and you got back a half hour late
oh yeah
or hey you left early last friday, because you had national gaurd duty
oh yeah
3 different people, and all this week
bish.... we have 3 - 4 employees.... and the guys are much better at keeping their time than i am keeping mine
what kind of money does jobclock cost ?
.. we have 25 field categories and about 6 - 7 office categories ... how many categories can jobclock track ?
would you have considered it if you only had yourself and 3 guys ?
Mike, I'll know more after using it a couple weeks maybe. As to cost, I bought 2 jobsite clock units, 20 ea. time in and time out keys{reprogramable} that can also be programed for job classifications{trimwork, framing, tile, etc.}, software, a PalmOne Tungsten/E2 which reads the clock units and downloads to computer back in office. The package cost about $1,800 and change. If it works out, I'll add some more job clocks for additional jobs. Four jobs at a time is usually about our max, but if needed, they can overnite ship stuff.
When the big jobs are over in spring, we'll re-assign keys back to main guys as trim,framing, etc keys. These main jobs this winter are all framing so they only need 2 keys per guy- one for time in, one for time out. I think it would make sense even for the smaller outfits.
thanks.. i'll watch out for updates..
so.. , i'd have to pre-preprogram the keys for the possible job classifications ..
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Sounds like a fluctuating business like ours could use a product like that on a lease basis so you can lease per expected life of each job and knoiw what OH cost to figure in for it, though it sounds like it would be an investnment rather than a cost.
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We have the standard time clock that Costco sells, I think it was like $200. I Have 3 guys working with me & they get paid every other Friday. $200 well spent. No longer have to keep track of who showed up when. Dont mind if the guys run a little late ( same job site everyday) but have a hard time paying a 40hr week when, before the time clock it would be 34-36 hrs of Real Time.
I've been on the kick for quite a while now with the JobClock. Been in touch with them, priced out a few scenarios, etc... I have not fully convinced myself or my partners that it will work with our company due to the multiple job sites & tasks at each we attend throughout the week. I'm anxious to see how the system pans out with the different sites you work at with the different tasks at each. Keep the feedback coming. I can't take the time cards anymore!! Would you have them punch out/in for a smoke break?? That seems to be a huge killer in this business as well. I see it on my jobs constantly no matter what approach I take. Great threads here on that subject, but to no avail!!
Thanks,
Erik
Erik, don't hire smokers! It's that simple.
blue
I've never smoked in my life....In fact, I can't stand to be around smoke, but some of my best finish/master carpenter's are life long smokers. I drop the axe once in a while, shake things up in the company - make a few examples & then they see what the extra 10 minutes add up to in a week, but a few months after........back at it again!!
Back to the Job Clock - In some of the bigger sites we have, there's over a hundred units under construction at a time. Our men might be in 4-6 different units in 1 day. My problem is: would each unit get a clock? (lots of clocks!!) or would I put one clock in a central location & have a bunch of keys for each unit & task. The central location is not practical due to the distance between units. These guys would love to hop in the truck to drive down to the construction office just to punch the clock!!
As I said, I've been throwing this job clock idea around for quite some time now. I'm glad to see someone finally took the plunge & is here to give some input.
Thanks
-Erik
Erik, before I'd worry about smokers, I'd figure out how to keep my guys in one unit per day!
blue
Punch List & Resident Work - base after tile, staircase trim, vanity/kitchen install, deck rails, columns - all the "stuff" left to do after another sub comes & goes. I always have a few guys running around like a chicken w/...........
I know what time is lost in that, which is calculated into my costs, but when the breaks in between build up, that's my concern.
Erik
As far as smoke breaks go, we don't give smoke breaks, just a general mid-morning break which they get paid for, but they go off the clock for lunch. I do have to watch that breaks don't stretch out too long.
These upcoming large commercial jobs are all framing so I don't have to worry about tracking different types of work. When these are done and I'm back working on homes in the spring I will need to re-program the extra keys for individual classifications of work, but it's pretty easy to do that.
our is on the computer, clock in at office everyday , clock out at office, computer automatic deduct 30 minute for lunch. if you do not take lunch , well you just donated 30 minutes. it pretty foolproof cannot change time, will not let you exit program. ands the main office can download time from their location. no arugment, no fighting, no complaint, computer does not care. everybody has their own code so, only you can clock in,
http://www.attendview.com/this is the one we have.
could someone clue me in on how clocks work with multiple types of work done by one person - do people clock in and out each time they switch tasks? What's the actual procedure?
With the jobclock sytem we just purchased, yes, they would re-key into the job clock with a different color coded key for each change in job description. We aren't going to be utilizing that feature at first, just try getting used to the in and out total hrs. The jobs in the near future will all be rough carpentry/framing.
Bish
thanks,I'm starting a landscape biz and some of the stuff I'm reading suggests that worker's comp is enough different for certain jobs that it makes sense to track this stuff. I can imagine that it would be a useful tool for analyzing your expenses too if it was at all accurate.
here is what really stinks ( in my opinion)
your a small "company" your tight with everyone
but at the end of the week, when all the housrs are totaled, it aint right, and you know it
but its you that pays the bill
but these are friends you have worked with for years
who you need to show up every day
and to knit pick over time is a pain
to know that they , at times look at this as a 9 to 5 is a pain
but 5 minutes here, 15 minutes there, multiply that by the number of workers, all adds up, and I pay the bills
I know, Im a strange guy, why can t everyone, clients, "emplyees" just be honest and fair with each other
here is the killer to me, my lead guy , who is not that good on time, his wife runs a deli, and she comes unglued if anyone is late for work, back from breaks etc. He tells me this all the time, yet he will run 5, 10, 15 minutes late, on a break and so will the crew waiting on him, and he does not see it
so devils advocate, your in those shoes, your bosss walks up and says, guess what, time cards and time clocks
how would you feel ????????
would you feel trusted, wold you feel honest, would you feel like no problem man, Im cool cuase Im good with that
hey its me...Isa..........I take heat all the time , I screw up all the time, so let it flow, wha tdid I say wrong this time.....
Isa,
I worked for a company that somewhat solved the problem of time-card discrepancies--our forman was a hard #### and travelled to all of our jobs all througout the day. I know that's not feasible for a small company, but frankly, it works really well for this company (of about 10 people). May seem like overkill but Ed's job was to not only check all time cards, but oversee all the jobs, get material there, introduce you to the job, etc. Just knowing Ed was coming around at some point kept the guys on their toes.
As to whether I'd feel betrayed or whatever with a electronic clock--personally, absolutely not. But I can see a few eyebrows going up--tell them to get over it, it's the cost of doing business.
Good luck,
Tim
The job I am working on now is a plaster tearout/ re-drywall job.
on out time sheets we have cieling coverings and wall coverings as two separate tasks.
also there is a task for additional work.
on this job, add#1 is some xtra wall area to rock over and tape in.
so as I am taping in that room, applying the corner tape at the ciling wall joint I am working on three different tasks at once!!!
I always knew I was amazing, now I have documented proof!!!
Mr. T. MOTOL
"They keep talking about drafting a constitution for Iraq. Why don't we just give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys, it's worked for over 200 years, and we're not using it anymore."-- George Carlin
"I think natural selection must have greatly rewarded the ability to reassure oneself in a crisis with complete bull$hit."
I'm Swiss!
Isa, as the owner, you are responsible for your guys running late or taking the extra minutes. Your example determines how conscientous everyone is about their times, their minutes.
We run a relaxed company. We run long on breaks. We stroll in casually. Sometimes we work late, sometimes we leave early (like today). In the end, the only thing that matters is if you met your schedule. Since we set a liberal schedule, we usually meet it.
I used to run things in a much different manner. I was a type "A" personality and demanded every last minute of each day. I set the tone by working hard from start to finish. I led by example.
Looking back, I realize now that I didn't really make any more money then, than I do now. Of course, we work smarter now, but we were pretty smart then too.
I guess I'd have to ask you if those fifteen minutes that you got "cheated" out of really matters. Aren't there tradeoffs? Do your guys sometimes end up working two or three minutes late, or are they promtly in their trucks at quittin time?
We run a total honor system. Whatever a guy tells me I owe him, I pay. I really don't care if he got me for an extra hour each week. If he did that every week, then he'd be receiving an extra weeks pay. Is that going to kill me? Not really.
What are the benefits of running a relaxed crew? Well, most guys prefer to work in a relaxed enviorment. We don't have guys quitting us anymore, like I had when I was type A.
Ying and Yang. Forget those minutes and just appreciate the job being done. When the job times start to suffer, just mention it to the guys and ask for help tightening up. Don't ask till it's necessary. Relax. Were only here for a few years.
blue
wow !...... do you know... that's almost exactly the attitude i've adopted in the last couple years..
do my guys get my goat once in a while ? you bet.. 90% of the time i manage to suck it in and think back to when i was workin for the man.. now i am the man..
it ain't exactly slack.. but it is the honor system.. i've got to rely on these guys and they've got to rely on me
and it's gotta be the same wether i'm there or i'm in the office or out druming up new business
the older guys appreciate it.. and manage to bring the young dudes around..
not a day goes by that i don't feel like saying something .. but i don't .. or i find something good to say instead..
i do remember working for one guy.. he had the most positive attitude i had ever seen.. and it was infectious..
i'd like to spread some of that virus around..
anyways .. timekeeping is important. so we know how long tasks take.. but clockwatching is not important.. that extra 15 minutes for lunch... the late arrival..
not important... but trust in each other ... crucialMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike and Blue,
You guys got it!!
so many out there treat thier workers like shiit.
think they own them
want 120%
pay squat
the employer-employee relationship doesn't have to be adversarial.
I could go on and on about all the lousy bosses I've had.
You guys Rock!!
I wish I could handle the commute!!!
Mr. T. MOTOL
"They keep talking about drafting a constitution for Iraq. Why don't we just give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys, it's worked for over 200 years, and we're not using it anymore."-- George Carlin
"I think natural selection must have greatly rewarded the ability to reassure oneself in a crisis with complete bull$hit."
I'm Swiss!
MisterT, find yourself some old guys to work for. They'll appreciate your efforts better perhaps.
Currently were only working with two employees. One employee has watched us drop from 25 guys down to the one small crew. He fully knows that if we can't operate profitably then he will also be gone. That experience has built it some automatic self motivation. The other employee is thankful for work (south of the boarder help). We don't have to coddle anyone, but we also don't have to push them either.
In any event, I know for sure that this isn't a sprint, it's a marathon and if you base your business pricing on sprint speed, you;ll fail.
blue
not a day goes by that i don't feel like saying something .. but i don't .. or i find something good to say instead..
That happens to me all the time too Mike. I see something happening that isn't too smart and before I open my mouth I catch myself thinking "oh well, if I bud in and try to fix it, my blood pressure will just rise." Then my next thought process is: " It's probably better to just keep my big mouth shut. The guys are learning from experience. If I try to apply my experiences, they won't have a basis from which to compare anyways. I might as well just let time struggle and we'll all be happier for it".
In years past, I wouldn't have had the patience to wait the extra few seconds or minutes for them to do their thing, but in my ripe old age (52) I really don't care that much anymore! My days of competing trying to shave every minute off the job are waning. Of course I still won't do useless things like strapping (had to get that dig in), but overall I'm just as happy today as I was years ago.
I also have noted that I'm deferring more and more decisions to Frank. I've alwasy given him a very long leash, but nowadays I dont' even try to figure things out, I just ask him!
Maybe life will get grander as I slip into oblivion!
blue
actually, that's part of the appeal of getting serious about tracking worker's comp classifications because the justification isn't "I don't trust you" it's: "I'm trying to get our insurance rates down" I've had time clocked jobs and thought they were insulting. I also noticed that this can encourage minor cheating simply as a form of protest (don't clock out for breaks or lunch, clock in, *then* change into work clothes, take your time clocking out, etc.) The other thing to do I suppose is to simply think of it as the cost of doing business. I find when a team is flowing well, there's less of this kind of slop anyway.