To All,
In a couple of weeks, I’m going to have to make a decision on our current project (new construction) to possibly substitute the specified 2×12 rafters with 12″ 560 series TJI rafters. Since the rest of the house (floor frames, girders, etc), except for the 2×6 and 2×4 fir stud walls (interior and exterior), is made up of structural lumber, I was thinking of switching to the TJI’s. Cost is not an issue, as they are actually close in price.
I would appreciate any feedback from the braintrust called breaktime.
The CM
Replies
Well not a framer by trade, but have helped build a few here & there.
One thing I always liked about engineered lumber vs dimensional lumber is I never have to look for the crown or a twist in the board.
As a framer, I'd rather look for a crown than install all that additional hardware any day. I can deal with I-joists for floor framing, but think they're a royal PIA for roof framing. Just my opinion.
I'd also charge more for a roof framed with I-joists over conventional lumber because of the additional labor involved. Don't know if that matters to you or not either.
I wouldn't think twice if I could use the 2x12s. I certainly wouldn't pay more to torture myself with the Ijoists.
blue
I've done it both ways and completely agree with Dieslepig and Blue.
I was extremely pleased with the outcome using TJI's ( straight, strong, etc. ) but it was alot of extra screwing around.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
There's definitely a lot more work and hardware in putting up I-joists as rafters. I think it gives a better roof, but is more expensive and labor intensive.
You might be able to offset some of the added cost by spacing the I-joists farther apart. Like using 24" O.C. I-joists vs. 16" O.C. 2X rafters.
I assume you know that I-joists require a ridge BEAM, not just a ridge BOARD. That can be a deal killer in some cases.
Bosshog,
This job is already under contract. Cost is not too much of an issue as long as I keep within the set budget and I have allowed enough room to compensate for some add ons. The greater concern I have is that it is a 24 foot rafter length with a 9 pitch and I can't stand looking at humps in the roof plane. 2x12 DF stock at that length tends to develop nasty crowns (even when you cull out initially) that show through the roofing.
I always use LVL stock for the ridge, valleys and hips. Maybe I should go with LVL rafters instead of TJI's just on the main box and eliminate the hardware along with the reinforced web at the birdsmouth cuts.
The CM
I saw a big frame-up this past summer in which TrusJoist's LSL (laminated strand lumber) members were used for rafters.
LSL is sold in a light thickness, I believe 1-1/8", for rimboard. I think they make it in 1-1/2" thickness, and that is what I saw used.
Probably higher cost than your other two alternatives, but dead straight, and no hardware requirements at connections.
Stinger,
The LSL used for rims is like a chip board composite in the lighter thickness and can't take a nail from the side (like in a birdsmouth cut or toe nailing into the ridge). Is the thicker version the same composition? If it is, how did they get away without using hardware at the cuts?
The CM
Try this link.http://www.trusjoist.com/PDFFiles/2080.pdfJoe Carola
Joe,
Perfect. Thank you. I deal with a large lumber yard who has been carrying TJ products for years and they did not have a clue that this rafter system existed. I am amazed. I must have asked my salesman (who I've been with since 1986) a dozen times over the past year and got nowhere. Their online system doesn't even have the product listed and its brand new. Looks like this product has been around for about a year. Guess who's going to catch a little sh#t on monday morning.
Thanks.
The CM
Stinger,
Thanks. Nice call.
The CM
Very good call. That stuff is killer and this sounds a perfect application.View Image
"I always use LVL stock for the ridge, valleys and hips."
Using LVLs doesn't mean it's a ridge BEAM.
Do you know the difference?
If there were any justice in the world, barking dogs would get sore throats.
Bosshog,
A ridge is supported by the rafters, a ridge beam is a structural member supported by bearing point loads carried down through the building, calculated and dependent on its length, the weight of the roof frame and based on the required load capacity.
Thank you for asking.
The CM
We stick frame almost everytime we frame a house. We regularly use 24' 2x12 without humps in the roof. There are some tricks. We cut our roofs in racks http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/4215122/53031627.jpg The majority of the time. For straight gables, you can rack and cut in less than an hour. This house http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6440753/82815157.jpg was all 2x12 24'ers. As you can see none of the difference between rafters is more than 1/4" or so. We frame 24" oc here with 7/16" OSB (I know we are hacks) without problems. Our lumber is kiln dried hem fir too.
Here are a few more pics http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6440753/82815148.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6440753/82815135.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6440753/82815112.jpg
Me in orange http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6440753/82815128.jpg
I didn't see what your specs are. I read halfway down the thread before posting. I would rather upgrade to 5/8" OSB before switching to I-joists. We've got a plan being looked over by TrusJoist right now where we may use thier engineered roof system, LSL for rafters, but that is 31' long :-)
I wouldn't worry about the humps telegraphing through the roofing. What kind of roofing are you going to use? If it's shake, you won't see it. If it's tile like this house http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7273486/108749466.jpg which was all 2x10, you'll have to be a little more careful. If it's a thicker comp like an architectural comp, you can get away with a lot.
I would avoid going the I-joist route if you can. It isn't worth the extra labor. I'm not sure where you are from, but get KD lumber, order a few extra (that can be cut into jacks or used inside in a trey ceiling) and you'll be fine.
Edit:
I read the rest of the posts. The Trusjoist system isn't widely available yet. We'll probably use it an a couple of months. Just checking the price vs. trusses right now. Its up to you whether you want to use it vs. 2x12. Save money if you can, try a new product if they'll let you :-) Post pics if you get to use it. I really don't think the crowns in the 2x12s are going to be a big deal. Where are you from by the way?
Edited 1/15/2006 10:50 pm ET by Timuhler
Tim,
For 30 years we have always used 2x12 hem fir. We also use racks to cut rafters in bulk. (its nice to see we all think the same way, 3000 miles apart). Either you get better lumber out there or by the time it gets across country to Connecticut it goes to hell. On a rack the size of the one you have pictured, we would probably cull out around twenty percent. A lot of the guys out here are switching to spruce because of the price and the weight is a lot less. The problem is that the spruce crowns later, after the building is up.
The last three we did showed crowns through the timberline architectural comp and didn't leave a good impression for the clients.
Specs are for 2x12 hem fir. TJI's are too involved and problematic. I'll end up going with the LSL roof system. I'm looking forward to using the new product. I'll post some pics when we get there. We start framing next week.
Thank you for the info, I really enjoyed the pics.
The CM
Sweet. I can't wait to see the pics. I just found out last night that we'll do the house with the LSL rafters sooner rather than later, maybe 2 months or less, but that might change.
Can you order Doug Fir? Just curious.
Tim,
Yes, we can order doug fir but it comes in as hem fir, not pure doug fir. I am guessing that it is reserved for you lucky guys on the west coast.
I made the call to my lumber salesman this morning inquiring as to why the LSL rafter system is not up on their site yet, or even in their inventory. We start framing next week if the weather clears up, we got smacked with a nor-easter yesterday and temps went from 45 to minus 20 overnight.
The CM
Yes, Tim, but what species are you typically using for rafter stock? In the NE, it is mostly spruce we are using, and you wouldn't like framing with our spruce at all.
Stinger, I'm in NE too (MA). We get hem-fir regularly for any stock over 20'. The rest is SPF. Amazing how things differ just a relatively short distance away.View Image
Actually, the long stock available isn't too bad. Depends on the yard. A couple of them stock framing lumber that ships in from Austria on containers, and it is very good. Pricey, though.
We prefer trussframed roofs to stickframed. The truss drawings for this one, including the details, consisted of over 100 pages.
Wow, very cool looking. Those trusses on the far right of the building.... looks like it's over an entryway. Very nice detail. Would that be an eyebrow or a barrel vault?View Image
That looks like a cool house.
I have to tell you though, I hate dealing with trusses. I know they work for most people, but I don't like them. Especially when we get really cut up houses (where you have to fill in all over anyway and piggy back.
"I hate dealing with trusses....Especially when we get really cut up houses where you have to fill in all over anyway and piggy back."
Believe it or not, so do I.
Seems to me that many houses like that should be simplified or stick framed.
The more difficult the house, the greater the likelyhood that the trusses won't fit. Then nobody wins.
With setups of lower quantities, it's harder to make money on the trusses.
It harder to load the trucks and ship the trusses in one piece.
All in all, it's a pain for everybody.
But it seems like once guys get used to trusses they don't want to go back. I catch all kinds of hell if guys have to stick frame parts of a house, even if it makes more sense to do so.
You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake [Jeannette Rankin]
Boss,
Trusses are a great concept. However, I can only assume that the guys putting them together necessarily the guys you or I would want doing it.
I just really like stick framing :-)
"I have to tell you though, I hate dealing with trusses. I know they work for most people, but I don't like them."I don't use trusses but one thing I can think of where an existing house that is trussed where it would be way more expensive to build on would be on a ranch house that’s going to have to an add-a-level put on.You would have to remove the whole entire truss which means that the whole ceiling, sheetrock, wires.....etc, has to be removed. Where as a house that's stick framed just the rafters come off and you don't have to remove any ceilings at all depending on the complexity of the job but I'm talking about you would have to remove the whole truss. That adds a big expense to an add-a-level or any other addition that has to tie into the existing roof like the one I'm on now, there's now way I would've been able to frame this if the existing rafters were trusses.Joe Carola
I don't see that as a valid reason NOT to use trusses. How many houses get a second level added on them down the road? Around here it's maybe one in 5,000.
It's like they always say, if you're rich and white, you can get away with anything. [Jimmy Kimmel, on the Michael Jackson verdict]
"I don't see that as a valid reason NOT to use trusses."I didn't say that is was a valid reason NOT to use trusses. I wasn't saying anything about not using trusses at all. I was just thinking about working on houses that have trusses because I do many additions all year and add-a-levels and the thought crossed my mind about how much more it would cost to work on a house with trusses."How many houses get a second level added on them down the road? Around here it's maybe one in 5,000."Maybe so from where you’re from but around here there's add-a-levels going on every day. So far I haven't done one with a truss roof before. I'm sure from where your from people put additions on there houses though where you have to cut into the trusses, right? If that's the case I'm sure you have to rebuild the truss where you cut the trusses so that would make it a lot more work involved on existing homes.Sometimes I have to cut right down the middle of the existing roof to install a valley to make a cathedral ceiling, so all I do is cut back on the existing rafters and nail them into the new valley. If I had to do that with a trussed roof what would I do with those trusses?Joe Carola
Maybe it's just a regional difference, then. I only remember one add-a-level around here in the past 10 years.
It's kind of ironic when you think about it. The only Jackson you can accuse of committing a lewd act is Janet at the Super Bowl. The one we wanted to see. [Jay Leno]
Framer, when you do a second story over a trussed ranch, you cut out the webs and top chords and then hang the leftover ceiling members (the bottom chord) and drywall from the newly installed floor joists.
This new connection can be accomplished in many differnt ways. It does take a little more time but it's not an insurmountable obstacle.
blue
"Framer, when you do a second story over a trussed ranch, you cut out the webs and top chords and then hang the leftover ceiling members (the bottom chord) and drywall from the newly installed floor joists."I guess that's one way of dealing with an add-a-level. But you would have to sister the new joists next to them to do that.We don't do that anymore. We always sit the new joists on top of the existing ceiling joists. This way you don't have to move any wires or plumbing out of the way.But what you’re saying might be the only way to do that with a trussed roof. It's definitely a lot of extra time because you would have to install all your joist in first and nail them to the trusses and then take off the rest of the trusses which is working backwards from the way I do a stick roof. But what you’re saying will save the whole ceiling as long as what you’re saying won’t ruin what’s left of the truss. We would probably have to add more blocking.This would be a good thread and see what people do with trussed roofs and add-a-levels. That's why I brought it up to Boss because I do so many add-a-levels but never did one with a truss roof before.Joe Carola
Usually Hem-Fir, but we can get Doug Fir. The Hem Fir we get has been very good. About 6 years ago it wasn't so good, but it's been very good since. I'm not sure why.
Tim, when you gang cut your rafters do you ever run into trouble with a ridge that was installed slightly off center or with a basic frame (house footprint) that is not quite square (ie house varies slightly in width)?
I realize that what I am talking about is perhaps the result of sloppy framing, but it happens. And if you are doing all the framing you can be very very careful to insure against these problems.
Let me be up front about our framing not being perfect. I know that it should be, but it isn't.
We always snap square and parallel when we layout, so that being the case, it's going to be really close. Assuming a rectangle house, I'd measure at each end when the walls are up. If there is 1/2" difference, I cut to the bigger number. If the difference is bigger, then in the racks, I layout to each gable and as long as I put the rafters up in order, the roof is flat. I've only had to do that once. It was last spring and it was a bonus room. The room was 20' long and the numbers for each end were about 3/4" difference. Someone hadn't plumbed the garage header properly. I just layouted out each side of the racks to the numbers at each end and snapped the lines on the rafters. No one could tell, but the drywaller.
We just framed this today http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/9094915/126297529.jpg we framed the upstairs walls yesterday (Outside walls before lunch, then Matt and I framed the interior while Jasen and Kyle cut the roof). We stacked it today and blocked it and cut tails. Yesterday while the tools were being rolled up, Jasen and I layed out for ceiling joists and checked the house for square while we were at it. It was within 1/4". We sheathe our walls on the deck and lift them, so it was nice to see no one goofed up :-).
The trick to cutting the roof, is keeping things parallel and square when you layout. We square the lines for mudsill, then for first floor walls, then second floor walls. We adjust all the way up.
What can really through things off is a cupped LVL or Glulam. We've had LVL material come out before that had nearly a 1/2" cup in it (14" LVL)
Tim, thank you for your detailed reply! Always a pleasure talking to a pro.
As for not having perfect framing, you does?
wow, surprised you're not telling him to truss it ;)
I have a recent yard quote that includes both TJI 560 11-7/8" and 2x12 DF#2 @ 22' long. The TJIs are $5.20 per LF, and the 2x12 is $1.81 per LF. I know that both of those numbers are probably high relative to the rest of the world, due to shipping associated with getting stuff here, but I doubt anyone can get 560s for even twice the price of 2x12.
David,
Thats funny, I was quoted the exact same pricing (aren't you in Washington state?). I always though you guys got severe breaks on dimensional lumber because you were closer to the sources than we are on the east coast and didn't get wacked on the transportation costs.
You're right about the TJI 560's being double the price of 2x12 DF, but I think the timberstrand LSL products are only about 20% higher. I'll know on monday when my salesman recovers from the beating.
Thanks.
The CM
Yeah were closer but he's on an island
Our ferry charges are pretty ridiculous
They send either 1 or 2 large tractor trailers off on the early ferry every day, and they come back on the afternoon run. So, there's a guy's wages for a whole day plus the cost of running the rig, PLUS the cost of the ferry, which is a few hundred dollars per load.
Hey do you get anything from BMC West?
I've checked out their website but that's it. I have gotten material from a couple of off-island yards and the most affordable way for moderate quantities is to have the local freight company bring it over. As an example, a unit of ipe decking brought from Seattle cost about $200 for freight including forklift delivery on my site. Mainland yards will come over here for $300 or more, a few I have talked to are Sound Cedar and Bear Creek Lumber. The two local yards can supply most of what I need. The trucks from All-Phase Electric and Keller Supply come 1-2 times per week.
CM,
We use all doug fir around here for every piece of lumber on the house. Getting 24 2x12's is a stock item also. The longer they come the straighter they are for some reason.
Hewre's a couple pictures of an addition I framed last year where we used 24' 2x12's for rafters. There's another picture wher I used 24' 2x8's for rafters today.
Joe,
Aren't you in New Jersey? What lumber yard do you deal with? We can get studs (2x4 and 2x6) as KD doug fir but the larger lumber is mostly KD hem-fir. Regional yards like Rings End and Stevenson Lumber. West End Lumber in Bridgeport carries it once in a while.
Cool pics. Nice work.
The CM
Yes, I am in NJ. I deal with Huston Lumber, Viola Brothers, West Essex, Glen Rock. You name a lumber yard and they have doug fir.The only time I've ever seen hem fir used for framing was when I framed in Cape Cod 20 years ago. Even our plywood is all fir. Any yellow pine is all garbage which you will see at Home Depot.Joe Carola
Southern yellow pine should be outlawed.
The CM
No offense, but could you kill the green?
Hows that, better? Sorry I freaked you out.
The CM
Thanks a bunch! Carry on!
BTW, I'm not fond of TJI's or BCI's either, although I've used them a lot. They can be decent for floor joists, but since I have access to some good Doug fir, I'll go with solid wood whenever possible. Roofs I prefer doug fir rafters....seldom use trusses except on pole barns.
I built a Log home kit a couple of years ago (customer from Hell!) and the framing kit was all white pine....I don't know how people build with that stuff>
Edited 1/16/2006 8:45 pm by Notchman
Hey Joe, can I ask a question about the fly rafters on the dormers in that first photo?
It's common practice here to notch 2x material on the flat into the gable rafter to carry that fly rafter (or barge board). We call those "outlookers". When we do that we go back one truss, or rafter, making that outlooker 46" +/-.
What caught my eye in your photo was at first glance it looks like outlookers, but the one on the far right goes back two rafters. Which would still be familiar, but the one on the other side of the same gable looks like it is on edge, instead of the flat, and goes back only one rafter. But then it maybe looks like those are blocks, and the last one twisted down, or something.
Could you explain how you support your bargeboards, or fly rafters, if that's the way you frame? Thanks.
By the way, I LOVE using TJIs for rafters in low pitch, long span situations.TIPI,TIPI,TIPI!
Jim,If you notice the two dormers, the one on the left has a 1' fly rafter and the dormer on the right has a 2' fly rafter like the rest of the gables. I did that because the plans called for 2' flys and I thought they would be to big for the dormers so I did both overhangs and took a picture with my camera phone and sent it to thew Archiotect and he called me back within two minutes vand said make them like the one on the left with a 1' fly.What I did on this house was put a 2x6's on a flat notched into the rafters and 2x6's on edge on the outside cut at 22-1/2" and a 2x6 fly rafter giving me a 2' fly. You just can't see the 2x6 on the flat on the left side of the dormer because the 2x6 on edge is covering it. If you look back on the second and third rafter you can see the 2x6 on a flat.Joe Carola
Jim,I don't know what happened in my last post I posted the wrong pitcure and I can't find that picture unless you go back to my post #34.Here's a picture of that dormer from the top.Joe Carola
Edited 1/18/2006 7:16 pm ET by Framer
Joe, that guy in the pictue would be fired if he worked for me for two reasons: no safety glasses ( I don't fire them, but I whine and bitch and bore them into wearing them) and no kickers on the bottom of the first sheet of plywood. I do fire them if they don't put them on. I used to just badger them until I got sick of badgering them. Then one day I simply told the guys that if i see them up on a roof without a "T" style kicker on the bottom, they are gone for the day and the second time they are gone for good.
We don't have much stuff dropping off the roof anymore including bodies.
blue
Jim,Here's that house after I put the exterior trim and siding on.Joe Carola
Sweet, Joe. Nice lines on that place.
Those common rafters 16"o.c." So you go back two rafters with your outlookers for 24" overhangs? I can see that. Like Tim Huler said earlier, virtually everything out here is framed 24"o.c. No snow, maybe that's why, I'm not sure.
Thanks for clarifying.TIPI,TIPI,TIPI!
So far I've never seen any new framing 24" centers around here accept for roof trusses but never stick framed before. The first time I seen it is when I started participating here and saw Tim's work. Now I here there framing walls 2' centers in certain places.I only go with 2x6's on a flat when I do 2' fly rafters. Anything smaller I go with 2x4's. Years ago we framed many Contemporary houses where you would have a fly rafter with 30" at the top and 12" at the bottom. I haven't done one like that in about 10 years.That house was all cedar. All the trim was clear cedar with the rough side out and the clapboard had the smooth side out. It was a lot of work, especially the 2' fly rafters and the 2' overhangs. They were all t&g.Her's a shot of the overhangs and another shot of a 1' fly rafter I just did the other day using 2x4 on a flat.Joe Carola
Ooooooohhhh. NOW I understand what I saw yetreday. You add blocking below your outlookers...I bet to act as backing for your soffit material, right?
That's another hallmark of Pacific Northwet building - open soffits. That's why I thought that a block must have twisted down.
Hey. I see you framed your gable wall short, then let the outlooker pass above it. Do you ever frame those gable walls 3+1/2" short, then turn your outlookers up on edge? Saves a rafter on each end and the wall supports the outlookers, which carry the barge. TIPI,TIPI,TIPI!
"Do you ever frame those gable walls 3+1/2" short, then turn your outlookers up on edge? Saves a rafter on each end and the wall supports the outlookers, which carry the barge."Jim,Yes, about 15 years ago. For me it took to much time anyway. I cut the notches out of the rafters on the bench and just send them up and nail the outlookers in and then nail the 2x6 rake. The room below that has a clipped ceiling in it.Here's some shots of the addition from the back of the house. It three stories with a partial wrap around deck with a hip roof over the deck. The gable is at the top.Also there's a couple pictures of the front of the house we framed today . The existing house has no overhangs and soffits. If we were to sister 2x's along side the existing rafters the overhang would cover the front windows and the front walls are only 6' high. What we did today was put 2x6 rafters on edge on top of 2x4's flat over the existing sheathing and made a 1' overhang and a 1' fly rafter on each side to match the back additions.Doing it that way worked out nice. It just changes the center of the ridge and changes the fascia line from the back of the house. We also added fly rafters to what was left of the back of the house roof.Joe Carola
"What we did today was put 2x6 rafters on edge on top of 2x4's flat over the existing sheathing and made a 1' overhang and a 1' fly rafter on each side to match the back additions."
That's clever, man. Nice solution.
Those photos of your 3 story framing are inspiring, Joe - really get the juices flowing. TIPI,TIPI,TIPI!
Jim,It's a very nice addition. Already the neighbor on the right came out the other day after my sheather was done and asked if there was going to be windows on the side of the addition facing her and when she was told ye she said, "OH REAL NICE" with a mad look on her face and drove away.This always happens on additions because neighbors get jealous and then they try and cause problems.Joe Carola
When I built my house I speced the gable ends to be shorter than the trusses so I could use 2x4 on edge. Its called a dropped chord even though gable ends arent true trusses. This is a 5/12 pitch so I figured a 2 by on the vert would be stronger. I wanted a 2 foot soffit cuzz its pretty rainy on the Oregon coast...over 12 inches so far this month.
Yeah, I really like that detail too, atrident. Makes for a stout overhang, for sure. Nice way to transition from I-joist rafters to 5/4 or 2x barge board, too.
TIPI,TIPI,TIPI!
Edited 1/20/2006 3:19 pm ET by jimblodgett