I’m watching a rerun of TOH about a Florida house renovation damaged by a hurricane. Client states at the outset “the budget is $65K – insurance settlement.” They want it restored to it’s original state, if possible. Har, har, har!!! Client is a grandmother. Project is being managed by her son and daughter. Scope of work is:
Lotsa demolition cleaning up debris from hurricane damage.
Bring everything up to code – electrical and plumbing.
Basically new electrical throughout.
Basically new plumbing throughout.
New Kitchen, I guess including appliances.
New water heater – energy efficient and larger.
90% of wood lath walls to be plastered/ rocked.
Ceilings too.
New roof with attic insulation. Tar and gravel.
Architect retained…. cha-ching (fee and dream-on designs)
Couple of new windows.
New transome over front door. None there now.
New trimout of front door – with sidelights. None there now.
New shower pan in one Bath. That’s remove existing tiled pan, install new and retile with cheapo tiles.
New anti-scald showerbody in another. So, tile patching.
Repair, sand and refinish wood floors throughout.
There’s a pool too. I don’t know if that’s included.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot – Painting; inside and out.
How do they do all this for $65K??!! I am allowing for different economies in FL than NY but this still doesn’t make $$ sense. Sonny, you’re in FL. Are things that much cheaper there? Or is TOH being fiscally irresponsible. I am told that TOH NEVER donates funds and freebies from the manufacturers are not too frequent any more.
One more thing. The roofer just commented that he has a 2 yr back log. Wouldn’t that mean it’s a seller’s/ contractor’s market? I’m thinking of moving to this market – but not at those prices!
No wonder Clients think our prices are too high! I think a season’s worth of episodes could be on budgeting dreams and realities of past TOH projects. Now that’s a season I would even tape.
Edited 12/29/2002 1:39:08 PM ET by Frankie
Replies
Materials are donated all of the time, the labor is not. In the Boston row-house two years ago, the mill shop threw in an upgrade to door trim that was worth twice as much. Tom Silva pointed out that the savings was lost on the doubled labor required to install the fancier trim. The homeowners also have to pay taxes on the items.
The house you mention was over a decade ago, and in Florida, where the labor is a fraction of the Northeast. Even so, back when TOH bothered with budgets, there were overuns. Once, the budget was maintained, the house still had foundation/sill damage and the retrofit AC was beyond the budget. The AC was shown on the back of a truck. Budgets were never mentioned again after that season. The show has gone to big, do-all-you-can projects. Just yesterday, Steve took the current homeowner to see a $250,000 (yes) media room. The homeowner was impressed, but even in TOH land, he is probably looking for 1/100th the budget.
If you can deal with the mind-numbing questions, lurk the TOH forums to see why homeowners have no clue why the costs are so high. A typical item is an attic conversion. The homeowner thinks it's some drywall and paint. But the framing is inadequate, there is no electrical service, heating or AC. Then the floor material is chosen, and it is high-end wood flooring,"So, will that cost more?"
It may be seen as a throw-away expense, but homeowners need to be taught enough to know why that low-bid is going to bite him in the nads and then some.
...that's not a mistake, it's rustic
Even if from ten years ago, the two things that stand out to me here are that an archy is involved <no reason for that when the insurance is just supposed to pay to replace to pre-existing condition> and that there are a number of upgrades.
So that tells me that you've got a homeowner who wants something for nothing - more than the insurance is required to pay for - and the size of the budget is getting wasted on the archy when any decent home improvement contractor can replace to code. Since they are looking to get more for less, guess who will take it in the shorts! The contractor - that evil, greedy, destroyer of homeowners dreams, that parasite to gramma's everywhere.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Does anyone know where a HO can get an idea of what he can get for what amount?
Pick a GC and say what can you give me for $X.
What big items does an HO usually buy? a car. Everyone goes into a car dealer and says I want to spend $x, what will you give me?
No, I wasn't comparing GC's to car salesmen. just stating what people spend big money on.
But it is next to impossible to get a realistic idea of what a remodel will cost.
response, well what do you want, you know this is more expensive then that, etc.
There is no good way that I have found to try and get even ballpark figures so decisions can be made in a reasonable manner, and not when an HO has found out that they can't afford what they want and either compromise to the point of disliking everything, or buying more than really wanted to spend/afford.
bobl Volo Non Voleo Joe's cheat sheet
The problem is every little piece of work performed on a house is custom. Every piece of wood is a custom length, every tile layed custom placed and so on. Sure go buy a car for X$ But you are buying a copy of many others. Buy a bookcase from Ikea and you buy 1 of 10,000 copys. Have you tried to make a bookcase cheap!
More to the point, TOH has lost complete contact with the early "idea" of the show. When Bob Vila was involved they showed how the money was used and what the unexpected problems had added to the total. Fixing up million+ homes is so out of touch with most people who watch the show I now find myself turning to another station. Now they follow it with "Ask TOH" ,this must be for the poor folk to do there own fixing up.
TOH may be out of touch with the average job in some parts of the country, but over the past ten years, the San Francisco, New York, Fairfield County CT, Boston, Palm Beach, Nantucket, etc.etc., areas have been the scenes of tons of mega dollar projects.
Talking with a client one day, she told of how she decided to build what she built. (A new house). "All my friends bought just finished remodeled houses, then tore them apart to put their own touches on them...it didn't make sense to me to spend 3M to tear it apart and put another 2 into it. So we started from scratch. Of course we're well over 5M, but that's another story."
And I see dozens of similar projects driving around the area every day. The electronic budget in one clients house was about 50K for the electric window shades, a little over 150K for the theatre, 60K for the lighting control system, and another 80K for the whole house stereo system. Add phones for 15 or so, and networking and you're close to 375K. His landscape budget was even more.
Another client spent 20K for 10 handles for the glasss doors into and out of the exercise area in the basement.
And they aren't unique. I see that kind of thing daily.
The point is, that TOH isn't out of touch with reality at all. They just aren't in touch with a certain segments reality. The reason they do it is obvious...more stuff equals broader interest, and as the show isn't a purely public show anymore, comercial interests have crept in.
I still enjoy the show, there are concepts and details and information that can be applied to projects no matter the budget.Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
Ya, I've seen people like that from a distance. Roar!...sitting in his nowhereland.
I knew after I put that in about the car it was a mistake.
I don't disagree with you about custom work, to a point. That point is that there is no simply way for an HO to get any idea realisticly on how much some thing will cost to remodel. When you have no place to start from, it is hard to reach a realistic conclusion.
To say that because everything is "custom" you can't estimate then there is information that is not available.
Some parts of building are not overly dependent on "custom" (realizing that is a generality) but have some sort of basis to estimate (I don't mean a bid price but an estimate). Another term might be Rough Order of Magnitude (ROM). Is it going to cost $10K or $100K or $1000K. That information is not available. The closest thing is when someone talks of $/sqft. which is so rough as to be almost useless.
bobl Volo Non Voleo Joe's cheat sheet
The biggest challange comes from "remodeling". 'cause it means "I'm no longer happy with what the builder did to this house and all the houses just like it" How much is a "prototype" that works and is beautiful going to cost?
As you know there are lots of books around with cost estimates in them (R.S. Means) for one. But there are many variables to consider. Everyone's idea of value is all over the map too.
The regional cost differences are too wide for anything meaningful. Long Island, NY is about 20% higher than Albany for many materials alone. ...that's not a mistake, it's rustic
Bungalow
Here on Long Island prices are more then just about anywhere in the country other then parts of California. Also in florida the labor is dirt cheap from what I notice when I'm there visiting my family. roofers..even in that hot sun get paid squat..may have something to do with the Mexican laborors....who knows
Be well
Namaste'
AndyOne works on oneself, always. That's the greatest gift you can give to community because the more you extricate your mind from that which defines separateness, that defines community. The first thing is to become community. "Ram Dass"http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy,
I thought about your house when noting the cost difference for Long Island. Until the tunnel bypassing Manhattan is built, I will feel your pain (for a bit less in northern NJ, but still).
When I was in Florida, I almost fell on my bum when a guy told me his hourly rate was $15/hour for heavy construction. Holy Snappers! You could get a crew in FL for the cost of the one union crane "oiler" in NYC.
Happy New Year,
Jeff...that's not a mistake, it's rustic