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Recently completed a nice bath remodel….about $40,000.00.
Long story short, 9 months down the road, everyone paid, everyone happy.
Home owner or guest jambs up the toilet, I assume continues to flush away as the water level in the tank builds up and floods the floor, leading to water damage in the first floor room below.
Home owner calls local plumber who tells her that if I had caulked the base to the floor the water would not have leaked down to the first floor.
I try to caulk as little as needed as it presents it’s own set of problems. I disagree that the water would not have found a way to a lower level.
I have more $ work to do for this client. I have not seen the damage.
What would you do??
Thanks,
Eric Paulson
Replies
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Did the plumber also tell your client that you should have built a curb at the door and run the waterproofing membrane under the entire floor and at least 8 inches up all the side walls? And don't forget the floor drain in the middle of the room with the floor sloped to channel the shower and tub drippings as well as the toilet overflow.
I think an unattended flushing that jumps the track would have found some way to get to the lower floors no matter what you did. The floor is really not intended to be a wading pool.
However, my base would have been sealed to the floor.
I think you might want to check with your insurance carrier to see if they will cover the damage. If your clients push the issue I think they would prevail because of an ommission that could POSSIBLY have prevented at least some of the damage.
Of course, RK might have a win-win solution where you could make more money from this.
*So where does he think the water would have went?IMO caulking the base of the WC can cause more damage in the long run. You're right not to caulk it.It sounds like user errorBarry
*Yes, User error. But how does he explain it to the homeowner, considering he still has work to do. I think after 1 flush and nothing going down would be enough. And we back up on a regular basis. We have a 5 y/o. LOL That plumber did you no favors. Would not use him if he was in my subcontractor list.
*If you have the talent to get $40,000 bath jobs, why pay for something that is not your fault? I am not a plumber, but generally you do not caulk toilets to the floor as it makes removal very difficult down the road. Have you ever tried to remove a kitchen sink that sits in a bed of caulk? If some one plugs up the shower, leaves the the water running and floods the house are you going to cover that too? The client is making his problem your problem. If you have doubts about caulking the toilet, call the plumber you normally use, and a few others and ask if this is a common practice. A little arrogance (self confidence) on the part of the builder wouldn't hurt. Slap these demanding clients around a little bit, and raise the price a few more percent to lower your blood pressure. Good tradesmen are a rare find. Dennis
*Thanks all, don't stop now, I'm gonna copy this and hand it to them. The plumber was NOT the one who did the job. He would have tossed them out the window.The caulk was omitted at the base trim where it meets the ceramic tile floor, the toilet is always set in a mixture of wall (non-sanded) and floor (sanded) grout blended to match the floor grout.My experience with most caulk is that sooner or later it will fail and lead the clients eye to something previously unseen resulting in a call back. I am not saying that I am anti-caulk but the changes in indoor humidity that we experience in the NE leads to a multitude of problems.I am sincere whwn I say that I simply do not get call backs. This is one and I don't believe I am at fault. However, in light of profit made and profit possible from the future work perhaps I should just suck up and fix the damn Dining Room ceiling!Eric
*Really? You shouldn't caulk around the toilet base? I thought you should to keep water spilled on the floor from seeping under the toilet where it would take a long time to dry.The client flooded the floor without assistence. The water is going to find its way through the floor. None of this is your fault.Rich Beckman
*The toilet/ceiling thing is most definitely not your fault. BUT.....they were and could still be good clients.......and .......you made some kinda profit on the first job.......so....I'd suggest letting them know......that even though non of this is in any way your fault........that the next time you are in their home to start that next big, beautiful project........you'll throw in the labor......if they pick up the materials.......and as a show of good faith.......you'll keep up you end of the deal......extra early......and have the ceiling finished......even before the decide on which kitchen cabinets they're gonna have you install.......just as soon as you have a clearing in the schedule. Get it signed in writting....and have them "owe" you the materials money.....due with in ....say.....6 months......or upon completition of the next project.......which by that time.....you'll give then as an allowance, or something. Or......"sell" them the repair job........labor amd materials.......explaining again how non of this was your fault......for the cost of 5 prequalified leads....which include them notifing the leads, asking what projects they have in mind, with names and numbers. Give them something to keep them happy......but don't give them something for nothing! Jeff
*I always heard that you shouldn't caulk the base of the wc because it might hide a leak from a faulty wax ring seal, potentially rotting the subfloor under the wc. Anyone who would keep flushing as the water level rises is an idiot. In that case the shutoff is a users best friend. Perhaps you could avoid future situations like this with a clause in the contract something about recommended repair firms?
*Are you going to be responsible when he puts a hammer through the wall trying to hang a picture ? (You should have had blocking there to nail into.)Or when junior rides his tricycle through the sliding glass doors ? (You should have put some sort of metal lath on there to keep that from happening.)Or when pops steps through the drywall cieling when he is putting 100 pound boxes of books in the attic for storage ? (You should have put 3/4 plywood floor up there.)Or when mom steps on the gas instead of the brakes and puts the family car throgh the back of the garage ? (You should have put concrete barricades at the heads of the stalls in the garage.)You remodeled the bathroom. I would be astounded to read anywhere in your contract where you guaranteed that they no longer had to use common sense, and that you were responsible for anything they do that is outside the bounds of common sense.It is still a normal bathroom. They still must use the same common sense anyone else would have to use. This reminds me of all those people who buy 4x4 SUV's and then go crusing around on ice and snow at 70 MPH as if the laws of physics no longer apply to them.
*Eric, I just re-read your post #4...after reading that, I understand that you did seal/grout the toilet to the floor, but what we're talking about here is your supposed "failure" to caulk the baseboard trim to the floor. Then the water leaked through the baseboard/floor joint, causing damage below?Absolutely not your fault.Not one bit, not one penny of liability.Caulking that joint may look okay after it's done, but after a few floor moppings the caulk is going to start looking ratty in no time at all. It'll be an even larger eyesore when after a few years it molds/mildews.For eye candy, the baseboard/flooring joint could be grouted, but after a bit of wood movement, the grout is likely to crack, and that's not going to be a waterproof joint either.As a good client, you can certainly throw them a bone when it comes to repairing the damages...a little "free" labor, a break on materials, whatever you choose...but they need to understand, with no doubt whatsoever, that the water damage to the ceiling below was not due to your poor craftsmanship.Someone just needs a little less fiber in their diet.If my first paragraph is correct, hang tough on this one. Even if I mis-understood what you wrote and it was the toilet that wasn;t sealed where it meets the floor, sealign the toilet is not a "mandatory" detail. Some do, some don't. As I interpret this, you don't owe them anything, but you can certainly cut them a deal on the repairs in recognition of them being good a good customer. It's simply good business.I would roll the repair into work that you do for them in the future. There's no need to take time out from your current work to do the repair now, only to have them not call you back for future work.It's simply smart business.
*Eric, this is the first I ever heard of the base being considered as a waterproofing detail. Is the bathroom door to be fitted with a seal of some sort too? Or is there a raised sill to contain the flood? What kind of lying moron of a plumber gave them this story? Joe H
*The lying moron who was pissed that he hadn't gotten the work in the first place.
*Not calking around a toilet base is not the only reason the damage was done. But......... It may have been where the water went to damage what was below. Check with your insurance company and with the home owners (their insurance) and try to work out a fix.. I am with the rest of the people here. It may get you another job (paying) to do. As you know 'politics of life' may be your best suit. BE A DIPLOMAT!
*I am almost certain that caulking around the toilet base is a code requirement in the UPC. That said, why would anyone caulk a toilet? So a bad wax ring seal wouldn't show up until it had done lots of damageSeems like there was an artical in FHB several years ago about crappers ( maybe by Peter Hemp) that discussed this problem.
*It is not addressed in 2000 IBC. Section P2705.1 sez: General. The installation of fixtures shall conform to the following:1. Floor-outlet or floor-mounted fixtures shall be secured to the drainage connection and to the floor, when so designed, by screws, bolts, washers, nuts and similar fasteners of copper, brass or other corrosion-resistant material.3. Where fixtures come in contact with walls, the contact area shall be water tight.So, no mention of sealing a fixture to the floor at all, only to a wall. Section P2712 Water Closets describes them but again no mention of sealing to the floor or to the flange.Section P3003.4.5 Joints between drainage piping and water closet..........last sentence:The joint shall be bolted, with an approved gasket or setting compound between the fixture and the closet flange. Caulking the WC to the floor (my opinion) is an either or, what looks better, or what is more sanitary as to dirt getting under it i from the bathroom,but certainly not as a means of containing sewage spill. Had this been a case of the wax ring leaking that same AH plumber would have told the homeowner "If this toilet hadn't been caulked to the floor you would have noticed this problem right away, before it ruined the ceiling." Joe H
*Eric - (and others)Home Toilet Management 101 - If a toilet appears to be clogged, DO NOT continue flushing. Immediately resort to plunging, NOT continued flushing. This problem, including the resulting damage, was caused by whomever continued to ask for more water wheni they KNEW the toilet was clogged.Some people are just not qualified to operate toilets. Second floor bathroom floors are not intended to be flood-proof.Any questions?Jeff
*Let's just blame it on the tree huggers for mandating those 1.6 gal toilets, cause they are the REAL problem....THEY SUCK!
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Recently completed a nice bath remodel....about $40,000.00.
Long story short, 9 months down the road, everyone paid, everyone happy.
Home owner or guest jambs up the toilet, I assume continues to flush away as the water level in the tank builds up and floods the floor, leading to water damage in the first floor room below.
Home owner calls local plumber who tells her that if I had caulked the base to the floor the water would not have leaked down to the first floor.
I try to caulk as little as needed as it presents it's own set of problems. I disagree that the water would not have found a way to a lower level.
I have more $ work to do for this client. I have not seen the damage.
What would you do??
Thanks,
Eric Paulson