I’m going to be putting about 1100 square feet of hardwood down in a house I am buying – it currently has some less than pleasing carpet – pink is not my style…
I’d like to do as much of the work myself due to the budget, but am willing to spend more for quality and something that will last. I have heard varying opinions on the traditional unfinished hardwood floors versus the factory finished. If I go the unfinished route, I think I would lay the floor myself over a couple four day weekends and then hire a professional to sand, stain & finish. The factory finished I would do all on my own.
I have three concerns that I would really appreciate anyone’s feedback regarding their own experience:
1. FF would definitely be the easier route, but I am concerned about the final look… I have seen installations where the cracks are very noticeable due to small height differences between the boards – something you would not get if the floor were sanded and then finished. Were the shabby looking floors I saw just really poor quality product/workmanship, or is this to be expected with FF floors?
2. I hear people making great claims about the durability of factory finished and the long 25 – 50 year warranties – but when I started checking into the warranties I found out that BellaWood’s much lauded 50 year warranty is only good for the original homeowner. If I sell the home in 5 years the warranty is null and void, this makes me think the warranty is really a marketing gimmick since most people move nowadays and so they know they will rarely have to honor any claim. Are there any FF floors where the warranty is transferable? What is your experience with the FF durability versus traditional? Who are the more reputable companies for the factory finished?
3. One of the appealing things to me about hardwood is the sustainability factor – I put down 3/4″ Oak and it should last through many generations given a few refinishings. I’ve heard refinishing a FF floor is extremely difficult due to the harder finish. If the finish is really going to last 50 years, then this is a reasonable price to pay. But if that 50 years is really more of a marketing claim than a real world expectation this difficulty could be a much bigger consideration.
Thanks for any advice!
Replies
Yes, factory applied finishes will probably last longer. And yes, you can see the lines between the boards.
And a site applied finish, properly done, will last 20 to 30 years, and will look much better -- its the classic look that we all want.
And note that you need to be VERY careful when buying anything from Bellawood. I've heard that their stuff seems to be packaged with a good looking piece on the top of the package, and junk from there to the bottm of the box. Also note that their definition of "clear" lumber may have nothing to do with the absence of knots, pitch pockets, and defects.
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Locke,
IMHO......... I have yet to see a FF floor that rivals the look of a wood floor laid w/o finish and then professionally sanded and finished. I've laid floors 5 or 6 times, sanded them myself and finished. Laying the floor is not that hard, the sanding requires a technique. Yea, everyone else thinks the floor I'm living with is beautiful, but to me its just ok. I will definetly have them sanded and finished by the pros from now on. I just don't have the technique they have. As for the FF floors... They have a slightly beveled/radiused edge to hide height differences that result from either the milling or the laying. I've seen darker floors that look ok in my opinion (oak or cherry), but the lighter floors (maple or ash) tend to really emphasize those beveled edges and look like factory stuff. Also, the newer factory stuff tends to have a lot of 2-3' long pieces that really stand out as the ends also are beveled. Everythings a choice....... time vs. money, new home/old home, staying or selling, client esthetics etc. If your planning on staying and looking at it for a while, my vote would be to do a natural floor, and have it professionally sanded/finished. You will feel good about looking at it every night , even the scratches will be ok.
Good luck
i really think you have a pretty good handle on plues and minuses of both products. but i will say this on the finish in place wood. when i got bids to just finish the new oak floors it made the prefinish look pretty good.but i went ahead and laid the oak and decided i would finish myself.
now i have refinished a dozen or so floors before so i was all prepared for the same thing,it isn't even close to the same amount of work. i used a orbital type sander rented from hd. these things are pretty slow at sanding but i kid you not a 10 ten year old can run them and they are impossible to screw up the floor with. with a new floor i had about 800 sf of oak, i had it completely sanded in less than four hours.there just isn't that much to sand if your flooring is milled properly.
i ask here on bt about finish materials and at that time everyone said to use fabulon oil poly. i haven't heard much about it since but i really like it.it goes down well and looks great.the only thing i see about it and maybe all the others do this too,but i put down satin,and after 2 years if anything it is getting glossery as time goes on.
you get ready to finish check the archives or do a post here lots of good info.larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Thanks for the information, at this point I think I am leaning towards the traditional floors, we're hoping to stay in the house for a number of years, and I want to have something I can look at and always be happy with. That being said, I haven't gotten any qotes yet for the finishing, so that could sway my decision the other way...
I'll have to check out those orbital sanders, I have only heard of the drum sanders and I knew I didn't want to subject a floor I'll be looking at every day to a bunch of beginners mistakes... finishing myself could change the economics a lot too, but it would only be worth it if the equipment has improved to be "dummy proof"..., or at least novice proof... :)
Our current project has close to 1000 sqft of flooring and I ran around to see what's available locally. With a contractor's discount (not much of one since I'm small potatoes) the prices on unfinished #1 red oak can't beet what HD has on the shelves at $2.99/sqft. HD will also take back leftovers.
Then I see a prefinished oak at Lowes that's solid wood, a full 3/4" thick and prefinished with a very slight eased edge for the same price. The colors look better than a #1, but the lengths aren't.
It looks like we're going to install the prefinished stuff and if the look isn't very good we'll sand and refinish for a flat floor. By avoiding the expense of sanding/finishing, we're probably going to stretch the budget enough to pull up more of the old damaged flooring and subfloor and install the new.
As much as I hate prefinished flooring, the latest round of products is very seductive.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
IdahoDon....small potatoes.
That's funny stuff!
These pretzels, are making me thirsty.
At the risk of hijacking this thread, I'm also replacing carpet as I go along with hardwood. Given that I'm doing this in batches, prefinished makes more sense. But, does anyone know of a prefinshed hardwood floor manufacturer (for nail down installation) that sells stair nosing in 12' lengths. I really don't want to splice two pieces together.
Thanks, Carlos
I think your best betr is unfinished Some comments -
There ius a wide discrepancy in quality amoung BOTH unfinished and FF flooring.In general, the FF has a hader, longer wearaing finish because it uses chemicals that are not possible to apply in site residential conditions.
But that factory application is not always pretty. I have seen Bellawood that looks like the finish was applied with a lint covered mop. Kind of a non skid surface, LOL
It was hard and I'm sure it would be liong wearing, but it looked detesable! In most homes, the occupant would tire of the cheap appearance long before the finish wore down.And with unfinished, you can end up with poor millings, poor grain selection, and even mixed millings, leaving you with no choice but to sub out the finishing to a pro.I find the better woods at smalled mills where they take some pride still and definitely not by shopping foir the best price. Saving a dollar on cheaper wood can mean spending a dolar extra doing the finish work, sorting out culls, and then you still have a poorer looking floors for close to eternity.
By selecting carefully the wood and the retailer to purchase from, You can have a decent flooring that is not too hard to finish yourself with rented pad sanders.any way you look at it, you have a lot of work to do.
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Just to expand a bit on the unfinished wood, besides the issue of grade is the issue of how the wood is cut. If you want the look that old floors have, you probably need to look for either rift or quarter sawn flooring. The grain patterns will be much straighter.I made the mistake of replacing some flooring without specifying the cut of the wood or picking it out myself. Looks out of place next to the old flooring.
I would tend to go with the unfininshed floor if I had it to do over again. I am in the middle of laying about 1k sq. ft. of Bruce "Gunstock" prefinished flooring from Lowes, I can see why professional installers would not touch the stuff. I followed the manuf. recommendations to open several boxes and mix and match to spread the coloration out, no problem. The flooring looks beautiful (in the box) but when it is laid the first thing you notice is there is about 1/3 - 1/2 is less than 36" some 48" and a few usually two or three >5'. Next when you put it down you discover the warpage, some (not all but some) is like a corkscrew (now this stuff has set in the house family room stickerd in boxes 6 months + before I started laying it) it is twisted and bowed etc. All that I can pretty much deal with by using the strap clamps for laying laminate and a lot of tension on the straps to pull it next to the previous laid board. Like I said I can deal with, just takes time. The real problem I came across is some of the pices are milled a 1/32 - 1/16 narrower than others, you don't really notice it until you get it stapled in place and discover that one end is recessed or wider than the one you are butting up to. I am building a box that will act as a size (width) jig to make sure I don't lay a narrow to a wide, that way I can seperate all the undersized/oversized and hopefully try to cull out all the odd ones to use as starter strips or in a rows by themselves. I had good luck where I had a odd one in a row and caught it before I slammed another next to it by trimming the wide one with a small block plane. Major PITA but I like the look and next time may try a different manufacture. I think Bruce has several different mills and when you mix the wood between boxes this can happen as they apparently don't set their equipment to the same tolarances between mills. I suppose that this could be a issue with other manuf. as well. If you have a lot of time it can be very rewarding, make sure you have a good (min)1" of subfloor that is tight and level. A site for professionals (who will usually answer non professional questions) is "floormasters.com". A lot of information can be found by reading the posts. Read recommendatons on how to do over your type of subfloor and what your subfloor is over, ie crawspace, heated lower level etc.
Jim
if you have a hd or a rental yard close,screw off 40.00 and rent one for 3 hours and go home and give the subfloor a sanding. it won't hurt anything to clean it up anyway. the orbital i'm talking about takes a 11x17 " paper .to tell you how well i like them i bought one from hd's rental fleet. 600 and i own it.something to think about you will need it for a day to sand ,then go back and get it twice again for 3hrs each time for screening between coats.
the belt type take a lot of wood a whole lot faster but if you don't know what your doing you can ruin it. saw a new house here had probably3000 sf and i never saw a floor look that bad.it looked like the baltic sea. larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Why would he want to sand the subfloor?
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if a guy has never run a sander and has no clue how easy/difficult it will be, spend the 40 bucks and rent one before your commited to doing a trditional type floor.now if you got a buddy that will let you come over and do his bedroom floor,great you won't have to look at it forever.
i once played with the belt type sanders on some junk floors.after that deal there is no way i want to be close to a nice floor with one.i decided it was best to let the pros run one of those .
plus when he sands his subfloor he may decide to urethane the osb for a new look!hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Funny you should mention the pad sander for subfloors. I did just that last weekend, not only to get a feel for it, but also to knock down some seams on the OSB and get up drywall mud smeared on the floors (too damn lazy to scrape it).
It was quite easy to control, and did a good (albeit somewhat slow) job. With a 20-grit sheet, sanding about 2900SF took me roughly 5 hours and three sheets.
Only caution I would give is to not set it down too quickly when you stop it, as the vibration will wrench the sandpaper right off the red pad. And it ain't going back on after that, unless you have 3M Hi-Strength 90 spray adhesive and/or carpet tape (which I did).
When I get the HW laid, I'll be headed back to HD to re-rent the pad sander, or maybe one of those random-orbit jobs they've got. Hear those are pretty nifty too.
Jason
JasonQ
when you finish your floor use shellac.. it's great! Harder than most finishes, cheap, easy to do, and easy to fix if something happens to it..
I posted in this thread just how to do it..
Honestly You can do it yourself in a couple of hours and be accepting praise from your guests that evening!
No real skill or talent involved!
since your renting a machine heres a secret i learned. if you have some one around the house that weighs 100-150lbs have them stand on it,it will really help. their feet will be numb from vibration!!!! larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
alwaysover budget..
I tried that too but if you are careful you'll find out that because the sandpaper is staying more in one place and the machine is vibrating, there is actaully less sanding taking place..
In the long run you will be happier with the trad wood floor. I have a house with one section of 30 year old trad and one section 25 year old factory finished with the eased edges. The trad has always looked better as well a not having the small grooves to collect dirt. Both were refinished recently and the difference is more pronounced as the grooves are reduced but cannot really be sanded properly for refinishing. Good luck with you decision.
Locke,
looks like most of it is covered here...couple of additional thoughts though:
if you end up going FF look on line for some good deals on brand names that will provide higher quality than what HD or Lowes sells in store under the same brand name
I have installed Bruce FF and was actually told by their customer service that there was literally no difference between a mid (15 year warr) and upper (25+warr) level product, and that the warranty difference was a marketing gimmick allowing them to charge more for the longer warranted product
There are national chains that sell outstanding flooring at favorable prices. You can afford to get fancy and put borders or other embellishments in it. Then hire a GOOD professional to finish it for you. They have good dust filters the rental yards don't even know exist. Look at the guy's work. I'll do just about anything, but sanding a floor as well as I want it done takes me too long. I'll hire it out every time. I have a couple guys that are so good that when they are done you could spread out some felt and play pool. There is no way you can do that over the subfloor on a remodel with factory finish.
It was mentioned that there are BigBox and higher quality products available. Bruce was mentioned - cost and quality goes way up from there, too.
The cheaper stuff has the edges eased to compensate for production variations. I saw a ff floor install in a commercial setting. There was an interesting pattern. The finish was wearing through leaving the floor difficult to clean. There was a smudgy floor with very well defined wear patterns all with shiny stripes between the boards.
Any warranty is good only as long as the warranting company is in business, transferrable or not.
Thanks to everyone for all of the great information, if any of you know of a good floor finisher that you would recommend in the Charlotte, NC area that would be great...
Locke,
there are some things out there that will make your choice a whole lot easier.. for example.
others are right about sanding, except,...
traditional belt sanders are a real skill and shouldn't be tackled by a newbie.
However the new square pad DA sanders can be handled by anyone.. I mean anyone! and the result looks great!
Plus consider using shellac as a floor finish..
first it's harder than most floor finishes.
second it goes on in a couple of hours and that evening you can have guests over!
third it's cheap!$50.00 should do most living rooms including the lambs wool applicator.
Fourth it's pretty hard to screw up.. Buy a gallon of zinssers shellac, buy three gallons of denatured alcohol stir and mix together, apply (flood it on like it's water) with a lambs wool applicator (or paint brush or your stocking feet, whatever<G>) . Fast is good! careful is a mistake! (honestly!)
wait 15 minutes for the first coat to dry, sand lightly with one of those 3M saNDING SPONGES to remove nubs, apply (again flood it on) second coat, after 1/2 hour check for nubs, if any sand to remove them and apply third (flood it on again) and final coat.. wait one hour before walking on.. It takes a few days for it to reach it's full hardness..
fifth it's really easy to fix if it ever gets damaged..
all you do is put a little denaured alcohol on a rag and rub back and forth a couple of time.. scratch-be-gone.
IF You stupid brother-in-law spills his scotch and doesn't bother to clean it up or tell anyopne.. you'll have to fix it.. Wipe off the old finish with denatured alcohol just in the area damaged. flood on your three coats new melts into old and makes an invisable repair! No sanding needed.
water wipes right up but if left for a while can cause it to turn white, just wipe it off with the denatured alcohol and repair as above..
so simple even a caveman can do it,,.. <G>
Shellac is good for you!
Drug companies use it to coat pills with and candy companies coat candy with it..
The alcohol that is used is denatured.. that's so high school kids don't get a cheap drunk.. they put 2% nasty stuff so kids don't drink it.. you might want an open window but the fumes are gone quickly.. kind of like being in a hospital.. shellac itslf has a soft sweet smell but that smell is gone in a few hours.. Shellac dries just fine at 40 degrees and even below!
I love shellac, but in no way is it "harder" than other floor finishes.
MVAugusta,
Are you sure? the reason I ask is that shellac actaully is harder than Lacquers, poly's, oils, etc.. it's even harder than some (but not all) catalized floor finishes..
I was amazed too when I put it on my floor and my 150 pound newfoundland ran back and forth across it..
He's stuburn and absosultely refuses to trim his toenails (er claws) When he stands on his hind legs puts his foreepaws on my shoulders and looks down at me I lose interest in debating with him so they haven't been clipped since he was a puppy!
Now that doesn't mean that there isn't any mark where he digs his claws in to stop and run back, but the dents are in the wood. The shellac isn't scratched one bit.. (I'm trying to figure out how to attach a photo so you can see.).
When I first put it one the floor I was nervous as heck I honestly found myself SHHHshing my daughter as I tip toed off the floor the first time.. I avoided even getting near it for 24 hours and when I did approach it it was in my stocking feet on my tip toes (honest!) later that week I suddenly found myself walking across the floor in my street shoes and turned in horror expecting to see scratches where ever I'd walked..
NONE!
You should have seen how cocky I was at that point!
OH I've scratched the floor some.. when I rolled my grand piano across it there were some scratches, but 30 seconds with a rag soaked with denatured alcohol made them all disappear..
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/features/fea.asp?id=1206
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Disadvantages:• Not water- or scratch-resistant enough for surfaces such as kitchen cabinets and tables that take a beating....is the part I was looking for/atWars of nations are fought to change maps. But wars of poverty are fought to map change.
A lot of these 100-110 YO houses that I rebuild here were originally done with shellac and we use it soime for matching into old stuff, as well as for pre-sealing wood flooring.I've always thought of it as more brittle than poly based on what I see in situ re long term wear and tear What I learned freom googling several sites and I think was mentione there is that it is considered hard but that older shellac deteriorates after mixing to alchohol so it should always be used within a year after mixing. I don't recall if Zinser has a shelf life stamped on the can or not. older mixes make for softer finishes, which could account for the discrepancy in reports of hardness.I also learned that shellac is a natural plastic polymer for what that is worth, and that it is reported to be UV resistant, making me think of wood exterior doors...
In my experience, It does seem to stain from water when wet spots are allowed to stay, but they ought run off a door surfaceI have a radial arm saw that I replaced the table top on with MDF and sealed with a few coats of shellac. It has seen a lot of exterieor use and seemed to wear pretty well, but it did crackle up like a poly would not.Just a bunch of random thoghts....
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FYI, the Zinsser can is date stamped.Jerry
Piffin,I've done some research on shellac. IIRC it can NOT be used on exterior surfaces. I think the reason is because of it's lack of resistance to H2O.I have some new pine windows that I would like to shellac, but I'm afraid the ammonia in window cleaners would ruin the finish. I may end up using shellac as a sealer coast with a final coat of poly, or some other finish.Frenchy - ever finished windows with shellac?
So would you use shellac on a kitchen floor? Even though I doubt water would stand for very long but waht about the routine mess clean up that I'd have with kids?
No way would I ever use shellac on a kitchen floor or any floor for that matter. That's not to say that shellac is bad, it's a great finish for many projects, but not for today's floors. It just doesn't hold up with any water on it.
It was the finish that was used on floors for many decades up until maybe 40-50 years ago. With all the hard, specific floor finishes they have today, I would say go with one of them. I like Waterlox myself, a well applied oil urethane is good, but I would look into what finishes have been developed for what you need.
The only time I would use a shellac on a floor is for historic restoration purposes.
have you read any of this topic-thread?
john7g
Water if quickly wiped up has no lasting effect on shellac, however in real life we all let things slide. Pressures of family always take precidence over preserving a finish as well they should.. while it's extremely easy to repair and can be done in minutes I'm not sure I would use it on floors in a kitchen..
For my own home I will use a marble or stone tile flooring. When I watch prices at the big box stores I often find marble or stone selling for less than even I can buy wood. The whole trick is to buy something she-who-must-be-obeyed wants or will accept.. (when it's on sale)..
I find that the extremely low prices only last a day at most and sometimes just a few hours.. but I digress.
Certain woods will stain badly when grape juice and other foods are spilled it doesn't matter what the finish is.. Actually some stone and most marble will also stain as well.
I have one of each.
I have an american cherry floor with a swedish finish (aka catalyzed poly). It started out nice looking, and after a bit of age it's gorgeous. But... it's not a terribly hard finish, so it scratches easily. Pull a chair back to quickly, get a bit of dirt tracked in, and it scratches. Don't think of having the dog there.
I also have a Husky (now bellawood) prefinished rustic maple floor at my ski place. Nice looking, though not with the seamless look of a finished-in-place floor. It's very hard, tough, and holds up well to the dog, to the ski boots, and other abuse.
It's all about whether you can deal with the look of the prefinished floor.