Hi guys, I’m from the woodworking side. I traveled over hear to get some advice from the experts. What is the best way to attach 2×4 treated sleepers to concrete (on the flat). I will be using 3/4 tg fir ply after they are attached.
Thanks fellas, Lou
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Tapcons
You know, this has me wondering a bit about the durability of Tapcons thru ACQ in a situation like this, seeing we are still in a world of unknown in the long term precision aspects of ACQ.
Granted a correctly laid concrete pad with intact vaporbarrier will likely have minimal moisture content but error here would have significant consequences.
Having seen the results of labeled For Use with ACQ screws rot out in a short length of time in an ACQ damp environment and knowing that the coating on Tapcons can be removed by the friction of being driven,
I'm going to say stainless is the way to go in order to rest assured.
Parolee # 53804
Edited 4/18/2007 12:31 am ET by rez
The best way to go is to shoot the sleepers down with a powder actuated tool. A 2-1/2 inch fastener will be perfect. There are many manufacturers that have powder fasteners suited for ACQ lumber. Ramset has something called Ramguard that is designed to work with ACQ.
What ever you use, you need to remember that corrosion occurs with moisture. The reaction with steel fasteners and the Alkaline Copper Quat (ACQ) will only occur when its wet. If its wet and you're putting a wood floor over the top, you are going to have other problems. Granted treated wood is usually wet when you pick it up. Once it drys out, no corrosion. Point is what ever fastener you choose for the sleepers or a sill plate for that matter will likely be fine if it has some ACQ corrosion coating over the top of the fastener.
Now if you're building something that will see moisture all the time say a deck...stainless is the best choice.
I had the same doubts about tappcons in ACQ, so ran a little test 2 years ago.
I put tappcons in an ACQ 2x6 plate. The framing was expose to the weather for at least a year before being completely dried-in. I checked the tapcons at three month intervals during that time and since then. Thus far they are showing no signs of deteriation.
Compared to some of the single coat zinc washers I put under some of the double galv. anchor bolts and nuts, the tapcons are light years ahead in durability.
I wouldn't hesitate to use tapcons in floor sleepers, based on my "shade tree" experiment.
Dave
BTW, how come tapcons aren't in spell check, but tampons are?
Have you removed any of the Tapcons to inspect the threads?
Parolee # 53804
Yes, last time was about a month ago. I figured after checking them three or four times over the past couple of years I would see some degeneration on the threads, but so far none to the naked eye. The blue coating is still intack on the part penitrating the ACQ. I have really been expecting at least one or two of them to snap off when I back them out, but so far they are sound.
Dave
That's good to know.
Starting to sound like the moisture free concept from a previous poster might hold some weight.
I know in a damp environment some of the coated acq rated screws become useless in a short length of time.
Parolee # 53804
I've started using wedge anchors for attaching wood plates to concrete
It pays to have a good SDS rotary hammer to bore the holes
We found this much easier than messing with tapcons and 100%
more secure than powder actuated.
The debate over zinc/ACQ compatability though is a valid one
We usually PL premium too, along with the wedge anchors
I have used tapcons on occasion but they can be troublesome. I have seen a pretty unique nail designed for this, It has a straight shank to a point and then it has a little bend or kink in the shank and then it goes back to straight again. The idea that it wedges itself in the hole. This along with construction adhesive should do the trick and a little quicker than drilling and screwing.
I have used those bent nails several times, and they are great. But with a very big asterik: don't even think about pulling them back out. You better have the board in exactly the right place when you drive the nail into the hole."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Yes, Redheads, I like. With PL
I concur with Mark -
tapcons have hex heads, so take a spade bit and bore a 1/4" relief before you drill the holes so as to sink the head below the surface of the 2X4 -
here's a link to a pict of a room where this was done if you need a visual - 28293.20
I usually use flat head screws and they will bury their heads in the wood..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I usually use flat head screws and they will bury their heads in the wood.
good point - not sure why we used the hex head - I didn't make the call on that -
"there's enough for everyone"
FWIW, Tapcons also come with a flush setting phillips head as well as the hex shank head. They can be a PIA though because the #3 phillips head will cam out sometimes so I usually like the hex heads better. But when you need to be flush for some reason, they can be handy.View Image
Everyone, These bent anchor nails? Who makes them and what size do you use for a 2x4 laying flat? If I put a vapor barrier down first then I cant glue the studs to the concrete floor. (what do I do to obtain a vapor barrier?)
-Lou
Google Rawl Spikes. THats what they are called, I would use 3" for the 2x laid flat.
I would just put foam in between the sleepers and foam in any gaps. That would provide a fairly good barrier.
So if you call somebody an idiot and he come over your house and stomp you into a mud puddle and walk you dry, hey its your fault.
Or you could use a powder actuated nailer e.g.Hilti,Remington or Powers.
Why are you thinking of using PT sleepers?
By the time you get finished paying for the PT and all the different special fasteners you need to work with it--both to attach the PT to the slab and to attach the floor/deck/whatever to the sleepers--you could buy framing-grade cedar cheaper. Hemlock is even cheaper than that. Neither will rot...and neither will eat your fasteners.
Sure, plain fasteners in cedar will stain the wood, but who cares? You'll never see it again once you lay the floor on it.
Save yourself money & potential trouble and use cedar or hemlock for the sleepers. Then go ahead and use Tapcons and PL premium to hold them down.
Edit to add: There's nothing wrong with using Ramset (or any other PAT) pins instead of Tapcons if you've got the tool, but unless you do that kind of work often you likely won't have one. The pins and cartridges start getting expensive if you need a lot of them, too. Using Tapcons will probably come out less costly overall, if you don't break too many bits pre-drilling the slab.
Dinosaur
DON'T MISS THE FEST!
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
Edited 4/17/2007 11:43 pm ET by Dinosaur
I have to use pt sleepers in my area(code). I would like to use adhesive but I want to put down 4 mil poly down first as a vapor barrier. Can I use the poly between the sleepers and ply instead of under the pt sleepers?
Thanx, Lou
You need to glue the subfloor to the sleepers, so don't put the poly in between the sleepers and the sheathing.
Put 1" foam in between the sleepers that should be a good enough barrier. It will also provide a somewhat warmer floor that doesn't sound hollow when you walk on it.
Stilletto, Good advice! Buddy of mine works for dow chemical and I can get the 1 1/2 foam board for free. Board will have like one rolled edge and the toss it. I will call him. Will the adhesive fill any gaps or do I need to shim. The floor is pretty flat
Thanx, Lou
A little PL under the sleepers won't hurt.
And as Eddie said make sure that's exactly where you want the board to be, it's almost impossible to pull them back out. Much easier to cut them off with a Sawzall.
By pretty flat what do you mean? 1/2" dips or less? Whats the finished floor material going to be?
If it's carpet I probably wouldn't bother shimming depending on how bad the concrete floor was.
Something like T&G hardwood floor I would shim. Any ups or downs in the subfloor will cause problems down the road, squeeking or bouncy flooring.
Consider gluing sheets of foam board down with PL300, then run sleepers over the top of the foam (glued with more PL300 and screwed with tapcons). This will create a thermal break and isolate the sleepers from moisture (then sleepers may not be required to be treated).
"Consider gluing sheets of foam board down with PL300, then run sleepers over the top of the foam (glued with more PL300 and screwed with tapcons). This will create a thermal break and isolate the sleepers from moisture (then sleepers may not be required to be treated)."But you need some high density foam to do this.IIRC "basic" ESP starts at 15 psi.That is fine form fully distrubed floors. I have done this with and laid plywood directly over it.15 psi x 144 = 2160 lbs/sq ft which is plenty.But if you put 3.5 (x1.5) down every 16" it works out to right at 40 lbs/sq ft. But heavy machines with wheels you can have a lot of weight on a small area.I would use 30-40 lb foam for this. And maybe double layers of plywood..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
But if you put 3.5 (x1.5) down every 16" it works out to right at 40 lbs/sq ft
Wrong. The psf rating of the foam does not change with the area measured. It's still 15 psi x 144 = 2160 psf. What changes is the contact area."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Bass wood, Will the studs sink into the foam over time?
-LMC
Bill H.'s caution is proper in your case, since I think this is a shop floor you are doing.I don't know the cost, but two layers of 3/4" T&G with staggered joints would be fine and would replace the sleepers all together. First layer of ply Tapconed through the foam into concrete.If you can use full sheets of "free foamboard" (with no fitting between sleepers), get insulation value, effective moisture isolation from slab, avoid issues with treated lumber...two layers of ply might be a good choice.
I have to use pt sleepers in my area(code).
Betcha dollars to doughnuts there's some kind of weasle-wording in the code that allows you to use 'other rot-resistant material'. Code writers aren't known for being mental giants, but most of 'em know they cannot dictate use of a specific product; they can only require you use a product which has certain characteristics.
If your local BI has a hardon about PT only, check the language of the code yourself and challenge him on it.
Putting that poison in your house is a bad idea in so many ways. It's only a matter of time before it causes some kind of trouble. The crap hasn't even existed long enough for anyone--even the manufacturers--to have any idea what collateral reactive effects are going to crop up in the next 15 or twenty years.
Remember Poly-B plumbing pipe...?
Dinosaur
DON'T MISS THE FEST!
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
What is the best way to attach 2x4 treated sleepers to concrete
Unless it's in wet conditions, in which case you probably would not be putting a floor down, use untreated.
While it's not really necessary, I prefer to lay a piece of 15# felt under the sleeper. Suspenders, yahno?
Lay the uncut felt down to the line, put the sleeper down, and while standing on it to prevent movement, drill a 1/4" hole 3 1/2" deep from the top of the sleeper and hammer 2 16d VC sinkers in together. Cut off the excess felt and slide it over to use under the next sleeper.
Better shock resistance than PATs and a lot cheaper, and it's still possible, though not easy, to remove them, unlike Tapcons after a while.
SamT
There are three kinds of people: Predaters, Prey, and Paladins. The really strange thing is that Prey feels safer from Predators by disarming Paladins.
We did this exact thing today worked great. Used 2 hot dipped spikes into the 1/4" hole really dificult to get the nail out if you put one in the wrong spot.
I've used that trick thousands of time doing concrete work.
They're real easy to get out. First you destroy the wood, then put a 4' crow bar and lots of back into it.
Course in 'crete work, you already know they have to come out so you leave one nail 1/4" proud. Or at least try to drive only one down while leaving the other proud (|:>)
That's how I know about destroying the 2x.
Here's how we patched the holes when all the pedestals were done.
Hose it out, then blow it out. immediately fill with a 1:1, 100 grit sand:cement mix in a squeeze mustard bottle. Pack it down with a "Jammer," refill and repeat a couple times till it's full. Hit the "Jammer" ont time with a mallet. Pour a bit more mix so that it's a pile on top and whack it a coupla a times with the mallet. Scrape off the excess with a trowel and set a sand filled baggie over the whole.
Took longer to type that paragraph than to do it.
Anyway, ya just put a real cheap 10,000 psi, nonshrinking plug in it.
A "Jammer" is 8" of 1/4" allthread with two jamnuts at one end. It's got a roll of friction tape wrapped around the 4" down from the jamnuts. First chuck it in your drill and sand a bit off the bottom 4". Doesn't take much sanding, 3/16" OD is all you need to clear the sides of the hole.SamT
There are three kinds of people: Predaters, Prey, and Paladins. The really strange thing is that Prey feels safer from Predators by disarming Paladins.
I like the bent spikes that were previously mentioned.
2 Ramset nails driven into a 1/4" hole works great also. THey don't bend as easy as normal 16d nails.
Lou,
Do you have to use sleepers, or can you use something like "Dricore" instead?
http://www.dricore.com/en/eIndex.aspx
I would like to use dricore or delta fl. I am placing heavy machinery on the floor, And I would like the option to run wire to the tools underneath
-Lou