I am getting set to order the flooring for the new kitchen addition and the surrounding great room. We will be going with pre-finished 3/4 oak t&g. I am looking at about 640 sf of floor. Since I am putting down the floors myself ( I only contracted the elec, plumbing and mech. out) does it make sense to put 3/4 plywood under the kitchen cabinets to get them to the same height as the new wood floor? We have 44 ft of cabinet x 24 wide so that is 88sf at 6.00 a foot for flooring that’s about $500 for flooring I will never see. I know I want to raise the floor under the cabinets so I can get the dishwasher out later. Any reason not to use the cheaper plywood under the cabinets?
Thanks,
Forrest
Replies
A good reason to put flooring everywhere is if the cabinet plans are still in a state of flux. You can go either way. Also, if the flooring ever needs to be replaced, it's much easier to do so when it has not been run under the cabinets.
Some always run flooring under the cabinets, some run it short and use a filler.
Yoiur plan has merit.
The other side of the coin is that by flooring under the cabinets you don't have to think. All the thickness dimensions work out. It will be fast because you don't have to trim it neatly to the wall under the cabinets. Plus the prefinished you are ordering isn't like sand, it comes in defined lengths and you'll probably want to stagger the joints so you end up with a lot of short little pieces. You could use those pieces under the cabinets. I'd have to think it is faster to do one thing.
I just porcelain tiled my kitchen this last weekend. I could have saved a lot of tile but it just seemed simpler. Once you get going it is hard to change gears.
something I saw on TV. If the main floor is damage ten years down the road you can pull a piece from under the cabinet to repair with.
... you can pull a piece from under the cabinet to repair with.
Edify me, if you would, about how you pull a piece from under the cabinet (?). In the U.S. standard "fitted" kitchen, where cabinet, countertop, and toekick become as one, which one do you yank at first?? I think I'd rather pull a stick from the extras I saved after the job, tied in a bundle and standing in the corner of the shop.
Edited 11/13/2002 12:35:15 AM ET by BEMW
Gas cap, I will give the customer the option of full coverage or not. Usually they opt for not running the flooring under the cabs. Most will probably change the flooring b/4 they change the cabs. I prefer to install the flooring last so I dont have to worry about protecting it during cab/counter install. The time saved protecting, usually would be more than running time saved.
Instead of filling in the under base solid w/ply, I'll rip 2" strips, run a row at the back and another just behind the front edge of the toe kick, with a solid pc. at the DW. I'll place and staple them down to the subfloor according to the supplied layout of the kitchen. The strips allow me to chop off any that go beyond the end of a run of cabs (DW, Stove, Fridge, etc). I try to make the ply thickness just bigger than the finish floor. This gives a little room to slip the fin. fl. under the toe kicks. Due to floor uneveness, you'll still need shoe, tho sometimes a full size toekick cover will trim the edge nicely.
__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
>I prefer to install the flooring last so I dont have to worry about protecting it during cab/counter install.
How the hell do you protect cabs during flooring installation? Swinging that mallet about the flooring gun is a much greater risk than anything a couple `o drop cloths cant protect against.J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Yup, I guess if you're dumb enough to swing the mallet and hit the cab, then you deserve what you get. __________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
No dumber than one who damages a floor, HOW?, while installing cabinetry!J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
JD, those political discussions getting to you? As most anything else on procedure here, to each his own.__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
No right or wrong....I PREFER to have the floor continuous under the cabinets (makes everything simpler), and I prefer to have the floors finished, then install cabinets, but I've done it both ways. Used to use a seperate kick unit like Gary describes, but I've moved to plastic leg levellers except on islands, and I'm not going back. Definitely enough travel in them to accomodate tile, and usually hardwood, whichever way you go. I personally would never build a cabinet where the gables went down to the floor and were notched for a kick, like you see in some stock lines....I think it's bad engineering......but as long as the kick is separate, it's easy enough to compensate for whatever you decide to do.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Dude...you suggested that someone swinging a mallet (necessary when installing wood flooring) would somehow be dumb, should they make contact with the cabinetry. I agree that which is installed first is a matter of personal preference...I asked how one protects against damaging cabinets when they are installed first.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Edited 11/13/2002 8:57:22 AM ET by JAYBIRD
JD, it was the tone of the typing.
OK, here's your answer. All the doors are off for cab installation. This leaves room to use the mallet. I usually have cardboard wrapped around the exposed corners of the lowers. The counter is set. The plumber is done, the DW is on the ply, the front legs are raised so the flooring slips under. The electrician, with all those scratching wire pcs. is done. All the crown and decorative crappola is done. The island is located, and all the work on it is done, cept for the wiring of the convenience recepts/plumbing finish if a sink is included. We put the island on a wheeled cart.
Using an air flooring nailer doesn't require the full reach bashing that the manual one does. Close to the cab front on the end of the flooring run, I blind nail with a finish nailer till face nail is the only option.
Set the island, lower the DW feet, move in the free standing appliances, toe kick cover, shoe and away I go. No oops from the electrode, plumber, counter install, to me is worth it. I have enough pain worrying about my end of the work. Again, to each his own.
Sorry for any misunderstanding.__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I guess I disagreed with your point regarding time saved not needing protection...my view is that the limited ability to work without concern for cabinetry outweighs time required for protection. To each his own.
Kitchen looks great! (Especially considering your installation sequence was backwards) : )J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Thanks for the complement, I try to do my best with the materials provided. Take a look at this bit of "Stock" prebuilt cabinetry. I always turn a goofy pie shaped cab upside down to check the toe kick...........
I am glad this discussion, at least between you and me, is back to civil. And just between you and me, you don't know your left from your right .....now how do you make those smiley things?__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
colon- space- end parenthesis....looks like this -----> : )
Make him wink with a semicolon ------> ; )
Lots more but I`m not sure if you really care! Keep up the good work!J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
You're right jd, I care about my daughter, my wife, animals, the environment, things of that sort. Those semi colonostomy marks, nahhhhhh.
Thanks again, how'd you like that factory rendition of a toe kick. First time I saw one like it, was not with the cabinet upside down. Who'd think you'd have to check something like that, considering you paid a little extra for the TK reveal on the end since it was the last cab in a line. Damn butchers.
__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
It amazes me what some cabinet manufacturers (insert manufacturer of choice) try and get away with. I think people have become so accepting of 'less than perfect' that more often than not they get away with it.
I remember a kitchen installation I did a while back...."custom cabinets".....homeowner paid top dollar...the "custom" microwave cabinet came unassembled....random peices. I called manufacturer and was told this was done so that parts could be cut to size and assembled on jobsite...hence customized to fit any application! That poor slob on the other end of the phone got an earfull! A week later a completed microwave cabinet was delivered to jobsite. Had I planned on building the cabs themselves I would have charged accordingly.J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Calvin,
That sounds like a great plan and exactly what I was looking for. Thanks so much for the advice.
Everyone else, thanks for taking time to respond.
I will post some pics of how the kitchen and floor turn out when I am done.
Forrest
I install 3/4" ply "sub-kicks," minus their 1/4" ply finish skin, on the sub-floor, then the floor is laid, sanded, and primed. I then set cabinets on the kicks, install the toe skins, the cabinets are then finished (if not pre-finished), and finally the finish coats are put on the floor.
There are a number of benefits: it's easy to level sub-kicks with shims, using a laser level to set them perfectly, beginning at the high spot; cabinet installation is then a snap, using a 4" high dolly to roll them into place; and cabinets are out of harms way while flooring goes down and gets sanded; and you save the expense of flooring under cabinets.
A few considerations: increase the height of sub-kicks to include the thickness of the finished floor; run finish floor between cabinets, under appliances; if you lay the flooring, bring it to within or less than 1/4" (skin thickness) away from the sub-kicks (the skin will cover the required gap); I like to see the floor protected with 1/8" Masonite, smooth side down, with taped seams. Masonite has saved us a lot expense and embarassment when wide Sub-Zeros, and big commercial ranges are installed.
My system has worked well for almost ten years, though sometimes a client wants the flooring under the cabinets. That's o.k., because I use the same system - sub-kick/toe skin, shimming the kick on the finish floor. I really don't like to install cabinets over tile, and try my best to get a recalcitrant general to let me install my kicks first, and so far they've all agreed.
Gary
How about when there's no shoe, toekick or "recessed indentation" in your cabinetry...as in face-frame cabs that go all the way to a pine floor?
Got a job like that now. Can't decide whether to tuck the floor under the cabs to hide the inevitable gap that will show when the wood floor shrinks. And if I tuck it under, how do I shim the cabs for level without widening the gap?
Pete
Pete,
When a panel runs straight to the floor, without a recessed toe kick, I wait to set the panel until after the floor is in and at least sanded. Flooring joints are too hard to scribe to until leveled. I still install the cabinet after the flooring's installed on pre-installed sub-kicks that are screwed to and shimmed level on the sub-floor. Here's how I build cabinets without recessed toe kicks, such as library's and office furniture.
I don't build many traditional face frame cabinets, but instead build a Euro style cabinet carcase and adapt them to look like framed cabinets. For instance, there are 1/8" reveals between doors and drawer fronts, and they're flush with and inset 1/8" from an applied end face frame. The 1 1/2" wide frame is actually attached to the front edge of the 3/4" thick finished end panel - an applied end panel. The thickness of the end face frame is the thickness of the door plus the space door bumpers stand it from the carcase front. Usually the door is 13/16" and the bumpers are about 1/8", so the face frame equals 15/16" thick.
The applied panel, face frame attached, is scribed to the wall and, when fastened to the carcase, the face frame overlays the front edge of the carcase end. In a recessed kick situation, the panel's bottom edge is toe kick height above the floor. When the panel goes to the floor, it should land on it - the floor being run to the sub-kick under the carcase. If there's no recessed kick in front, then the sub-kick is set flush with the front of the edgebanded carcase. Again, flooring runs up to the sub-kick, and the thickness of the piece I call a toe skin, now the bottom face frame, increases to 15/16" thick, like the end face frame. Also like the end panel, the bottom face frame is scribed tight to the sanded floor and adjoins tight and invisibly to the end face frame (pre-fit in the shop). So when you open the door and look down, you see the top edge of the bottom face frame and the front edge of the carcase. Joints between the floor and the end panel, its face frame, and the bottom face frame are nearly invisible and shoeless.
My system is different, but it works, at least for me. I know some will say that the 3/4" end panel is overkill, but:
I like to biscuit join the frame to it's front edge, and that isn't easy with less thick material.
I attach the end panel from inside, with screws, and that isn't possible with thinner panels. I don't show any nail holes on my cabinets, except perhaps on toe skins and crown moldings.
Besides, I like the end frame to be at least 1 1/2" thick.
Finally, my shop is only 1400-s.f., so I don't have a lot of room to store various species of plywood in various thicknesses, and so I stick with 3/4" most often - even on the backs of my wall hung uppers (but that's another story).
Hope this helps,
Gary
PS to Adrian: I used to use those adjustable legs and clip on toe skins, but don't like them. Installation is faster with my sub-kick system, and I and most architects/builders/clients want the cabinet front and end to be secured to the floor. After installing the kicks, I surprise even myself by how fast carcase installation is, and I work alone, except when hanging big heavy uppers.
Edited 11/13/2002 1:55:51 PM ET by Gary Weisenburger
Another one of those individual preference things....like I said, I used to build seperate kicks exactly like you....it was the way we did it when I trained, and I did it ever since (15? years until I switched), and it works well, but for most things, I've switched to the leg levellers......I am definitely much faster, the cabinets are just as solid, there are all kinds of things I like about them. I still use a kick when the situation calls for it. I've had no problem with people not accepting them, the opposite in fact.
Horses for courses.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
I prefer to lay the floor completely first. (the cabinet boxes are very good to lay down on the finished floor to protect it) Also the dishwasher isn't so hard to put in and take out.. Most of the flooring guys would rather floor the whole kitchen before the cabinets go in.
Thanks. Gary.
So in essence, the face frame and side panels are scribed to the sanded floor. With the floor running under the cabinets to the subkicks (which I assume are plywood blocks that are less than 3/4" thick)?
Pete
I have to go with floor under the cabs when you use hardwood. If for no other reason than a wood floor will be laid best when it is done without interruption. Think about it.
I am also not a big fan of pre-finished floors anywhere, because of the refinishing details, and where would they be the hardest to refinish? Yep, around cabinets. I also think a kitchen is one of the worst places for a wood floor, but that is a different thread.
Having said that, I believe a wood floor will outlast the vast majority of cabinets out there. Cabinet and top choices change with the wind and the homeowner, so keep your cab layout option open later on by providing a wall to wall floor.
Sue me, I may be off the map from some of you because my background involves historical restoration. But you know what? I price new work with the best of them, I just tailor the options to longevity. I can do that at a price point that competes with any real contractor, and almost any clown.
I do the best I can to offer fine homebuilding, but sometimes the payoff is a ways done the road...