There are a couple of interesting threads going on presently. One is about payrates being confidential. The other is about who calls you a carpenter.
I feel these two could be combined in this thread.
I was a union carpenter…Local 44…Champaign, Il. They said I was a carpenter. I say I wasnt. I feel having a carpenters title is to be proficient in most areas of carpentry. I was a trim carpenter/stairbuilder. I was not proficient in framing..drywalling,,steel stud work,,etc. I was specialized in stairwork..and stairwork only.
Being in the union removed all monetary reward for being specialized..and thus stifled creativity. No matter what you did, you still made the same as the other Joe next to you.
This ties this into the other thread about payrates being confidential. When I worked non-union..I still was specialized in stairways. I was in the right place at the right time and my niche for stairways was just what my employer needed. I was compensated for this need that was being met, and more so than my co-workers. However…many people are consumed by worrying about what others are making instead of putting that energy into developing their own skills. Most of my co-workers had many more years in the company than I..yet I was being compensated more than they were. I never revealed, not even a hint of what my wages were…but most of the others freely talked about their wages. They had ways of finding out mine and this just caused a lot of animosity. TOTAL wasted energy in my book. On occasion when my trim work was caught up..they would send me out to the frame crew. All of these guys were making less than I was..and they knew it. This made it very uncomfortable as I was not worth HALf of what they were being paid while I was trying to frame.
So…in one way….being in a union removes this animosity because everyone makes the same…but on the other hand..I feel it stifles creativity as you wont be paid one more cent for developing new skills. On the other hand…if your energy is consumed by worrying that your co-worker is making more..then the union might be the place to be.
My personal feeling is let the market bear what you are worth..creativity unstifled…
Replies
"My personal feeling is let the market bear what you are worth..creativity unstifled..."
Stan,
FWI, I have never been in a union. One of the (many) reasons unions came about is that the average Joe is not that good a negotiator, and the unions fill that void. The [union] model for doing it, as you pointed out, may a bit dated, as you contend that their pay scale doesn't take into account specialization. Why? I guess that's best???? answered by the union bosses LOL.
Where I work, we have a few 15 to 20+ year senior people who have skills that they get to use on the job ~30% of the time that nobody else has. They get paid on the top of the pay scale and spend the majority of their time doing the same type of stuff that the 3+ year apprentices are doing. BUT, for certain specialized stuff, they are almost irreplaceable.
For all intents and purposes, they are paid well to stick around for the times when we need them for their nitch, and to share they experience with the younger guys.. On a daily basis, they are not money makers.
Jon
Stan.
Been in the union and still maintain my card in case..........
I think that union work in general lies in the commercial area. Most "design" where creativity is most used would be handled by the architects and designers. The installation and creation of the design would be handled by the union personel. Creativity in the work (where applicable) would probably be regulated by the contractor as that part is already bid out. So I guess what I am saying is that I don't believe creativity is stiffled by the union per se. It has just been ordered in such a way (by building as it is today) as to limit the amount of creativity the carpenter can put forth into his work. When all the casting has been done, each player has a script.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
"So...in one way....being in a union removes this animosity because everyone makes the same..."
you mean this is somehow preferable to the animosity that stems from you busting your a$$ and doing a great job, but getting paid the same as the lazy, incompetent slob who can barely show up on time- or you're making even less than him because he has seniority and is almost impossible to fire?
m
Just my point...if one wants to get ahead in the union..it wont get him very far to improve his level of work. If one is the mediocre type..then the union benefits this guy.
The union has some of the best training facilities in the country . And being in the union you get all the training and classes you can take , at no cost to you . Gee that really sucks .
bean:
I have been self trained out of nothing but having pure passion for my work. I did this training on my own time while I was moonlighting. Stuck my neck out many times because the reward was great if I succeeded...and just a good lesson if I didnt.
I work out of my own shop, non-union for union companies. I have done many stairs for the union. Out of 350 union carpenters,,,nobody would step up and offer their services to try to build these curved stairways. Why? I would say that they do not have the incentive to do so. It takes a lot of work before the first piece of wood is cut. So they had to hire this "scab"
Oh boy Stan, you had to know that statement would get some people riled.
First let me say that from the photos of your work, and the posts you have made in this forum , you are without a doubt ,one out of a thousand .
From the obvious pride and talent that shows in your many staircases,to the photos of you and your gyrocopter as you fly above southern illinois fields, and the views of your well-ordered shop that would give "Norm" a run for his money.
It is quite clear that you are an exeptionally talented individual.
I really don't think that it makes a bit of difference if you are union or not . I don't think that you would be happy working for anyone but yourself.
This allows you the creative release that you so abley demonstrate.
Any time that you work for another person , whether or not they are union , you are carrying out their wishes not necesarily your own.
Of course that stifles your creativity ,you are a specialist who is devoted to stairways in all their many forms who works for himself.
I'm sorry Stan but to make a blanket statement to the effect that mediocre men would gravitate torward the union is no more fair than someone saying the same thing of non-union workers.
The carpenters union is there to give the individual man a bigger voice when dealing with employers . Not to provide a haven for lazy non creative people who simply want a big check for the least amount of work.
p.s. Have you been flying lately?
Well written, benny.
I worked a union carp for a a while back in the late seventies, commercial work only.
I also worked for non-union construction companies, both commercial and residential.
All of them had thier share of slackards, but most of the time I worked with good men for reasonable wages. Hustle, attention to detail, and conciencious hard work any of the environments I worked in earnedsome type of reward.
In the union it was full time employment when time were getting tough. I worked for companies that specifically ask for me over more senior and experienced carps, because work ethic, when I should have been laid off.
In non-uoin companies the same work ethic netted pay increases, promotion to foreman and eventualy superintendent.
Stifiling creativity was never an issue with me or any of the very talented people I worked with et. al. To this day I don't consider myself a creative individual, but more of a good mechanic with acquired problem solving skills.
Training opportunities were better in the union, but todays non-union contractors and the ABC are making an effort to catch up in that area. Pay and benefits are drawing closer for carps in the commercial arena. Unfortunately, I don't think that will ever be true in the residential area.
I am now a member of the International Brrotherhood of Electrical Workers. I see the same thing in the IBEW that I saw in any of the other 22 places of employment I have worked at over the last 39 years. Good people, lazy people, talented people, some very smart and some very dumb people are every where.
Like you, I can no longer make catagorical statements about either union or non-union environments being better or worse than one another. In the end good people shine at thier trade, where ever it is.
Dave
benny: I can see your point...well put my friend.
Please guys....I had no intention of this getting personal. I feel like I threw a grenade in a room and am now running down the hall. I have respect for union and non-union. Both have a place. I personally believe in being paid for what you are worth and not a set wage. Just my thoughts..and I am out of here.
Stan, Like you, I have no reason to slam unions.
I have seen bad stuff from them but similar bad goes on in non-union places too. That's partly a matter of human nature.
But in terms of principles, there is something to what you say. And while they may have a tendency to mediocratize some guys by dumbing them down, I have also seen it where the whole crew peers the laggards into action more effectively than a straw boss can. "Whaddya wanna do, make us all look bad? Huh? Get yer azz in gear bud or go back to the hall and warm the bench"
While I was growing up, my Dad worked in a non-union shop. The owners motivated people with incentives and paid them a nickle or so above same positions in the union shops around. That kept them all happy and working as a team to solve problems and they were more productive than the union shop down the road. Dad seemed proud of that and I grew up with a natural slant against unions.
Then when I started roofing, I earned my way up on the pay scales in Florida. After a year or so, I noticed a truck from a competing company occasionally curbside near a house I was shingling. Not too abnormal since most subdivisions got crowded with everybody in town all at once after the ground breaking happened and streets went in.
but then after a couple days, I got a call at home. Apparently, the guy in that truck had been the super for the biggest roofing Co. in town. He said he had heard about my talents and productivity and offered me more money to work for him.
After I made the change, I found out that this was a "mixed shop" or "open shop" meaning that you could work there as union or as non-union and the U guys started trying hard to sell me the idea of joining, elaborating all the benefits and telling me I could earn more money.
I asked how much more anmd had to laugh when I found out I was already making ten or fifteen percent more than they based on my own ability. That confirmed my non-union leanings.
But we got along and got the work done.
The reason I say all that is to lead to this in responce to your query, I noticed that wher I already knew two or three ways to do certain things, they generally knew only one, that being the method shown them in their night school classes. The experience left me feeling a little like you have implied about union thinking - that this is the one way and don't dare deviate.
Now, on some commercial work and larger jobs I can understand a practical need from a supervisory and design viewpoint to have every one proceding according to a manual of procedures...
On another union job in Colorado, I could evidence of great creativity - when It came to figuring how to sneak in a longer coffee or lunch break or heist some materials home - so I'm sure that there are creative minds at work in unions.
On a positive note, one of the best carp teachers I ever knew was a strong pro-union guy. He didn't share his secrets with everyone - just loyal union guys and those who made him look good - but he kept guys in line and kept production moving so even the bosses didn't bother with him, he was the MAN.
I remember applying for a union carp job on a commercial job. After a half hour interview, the super told me that he would love to hire me instead of most of his crew if the job were on his own house, but that he was afraid I would make waves on the job because of being too independent in my ways of thinking...
Take it for what it's worth..
Excellence is its own reward!
I am not bashing the union here..just stating on observation of mine. While being in the union...I was very impressed with the safety consiousness, work ethic,,and also the grand scale of the projects that they take on. Of course they are mainly commercial and they excel in this. The union built a ten million dollar home three years ago that I really dont believe could have been built non-union. They would have had to put together about 10 of the largest contractors to have built this home. So...my hats off to the union here...but I still say it stifles creativity.
I am a union carpenter . And I have been trained by the union to do it all . You name it I can do it. That is the type of carpenter that is of value to the contractor . I have come up through the ranks and now I am a superintendent of construction. And still union . If a carpenter is not producing work , or coming in late , or not doing quality work . I get him his check and lay him off. The union offers oppertunity , all one has to do is work hard and take advantage of it .
A union is just legalized mob rule.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Most of the time you union bashers make these statements because they are mostly jealous because we are organized. The other reason is because you are afraid to take a chance and try somthing different. You should take your head out of the sand and look to your future. Do the words PENSION and ANNUITY mean anything to you ?
I have a feeling that unions will get a bad rep from alot of contractors because they offer a carp something he will hardly ever see from a non-union contractor......
Benefits.
OTOH I went down to the local hall a few weeks ago and was told they were'nt hiring.
No "how much experience" or "what can you do"
Then I asked about union rules about subcontracting.
Well you can do that, but just don't tell us.
They didn't even try to sign me up!!??
Walked out knowing less than when I walked in.
Not a good sign in my book.Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
I'm already drawing a pension..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
are you actually telling me this is never, nor has ever been, a problem in unions? if you are, then there a drug abuse problem in your union. one doesn't have to be anti-union to honestly recognize this sort of thing does, in fact, exist sometimes. all the time, everywhere? no. but often enough that it's hardly considered rare? you bet.
you know, when you try to deny something like that merely on the basis that it comes from a non-union perspective, you end up looking like just another pro-union stooge- and that ain't helping your position.
m
from what I've seen ... looking in from the outisde...
I'd have to agree with your assessments.
I grew up in a union household... my Dad worked as a member of the brotherhood of railroad signalmen ... retired and worked as a union rep .... retired again and worked as a union lobbyist ... retired again .. and went to work as a railroad consultant .... not sure if the last gig was union or not.
So I've been around enough union talk to have a good feel of things.
All he ever told me was for me to not go into the carpenters union.
Said I'd hate it ... and would quit.
For the reasons you already stated and a coupla more.
As much as the union did for him ... I'm not so sure he'd take that route a second time around if given the chance...
But things were different when he went in.
Like someone else mentioned ... unions are better for those who can't /don't negotiate for themselves.
I just told my second shift/weekend helper he'd be better off considering joining the local carp's union if they're hiring. Smart kid ... hard worker ... skilled ... picks up things quickly ... but thinks he could just walk off his 9-5 job and start his own biz with absolutely none of the skills that would require .... he hasn't even been able to advance within the company he's currently working ... so working his way thru the union scales would be his best bet at advancing.
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
I love you guys that begin with "I've got nothing against the unions..." and then spend the rest of your post bashing unions with stories of union guys being lazy,violent,drugged out,etc....
Maybe in a factory someone might wonder why they should work harder if the guy next to them is making the same money.The simple reality of $20+ construction jobs is that if you don't hustle,you get laid off.
And I don't see much "creativity" in all of the Larry,Darryl and Darryl crews with rusted out pick up trucks I see at Home Depot and Lowes everyday.It's no wonder the public rates building contractors right down there with used car salesman.
IBEW Barry. I don't know in which state or city you work, but the fact is in many places the unions don't get the jobs due to higher bidding. I agree the non-union companies don't have the schooled electricians, and that's really dangerous, but in this slow economy, businesses look at the $, not the ability of the workers. Keep your fingers crossed your local doesn't run out of jobs. You may be in the line waiting for a job, having to pay your dues and working somewhere else - maybe Home Depot?
Rip,
I'm sorry that you are so bitter.There are a lot of steelworkers that have been screwed out of their retirements where I live.The fault lies with companies that misspend funds set aside for pensions,not with the unions.
In your previous post you said your son was an IBEW member, I really hope he enjoys a long and successful career.I don't quite get what your saying though about the union members telling him to slow down,the longer a job takes the more the company makes.I haven't been on a time and material job in years.In today's economy I can't believe they exist.
Although the economy is slow,I'm lucky enough to be able to continue to earn decent wages and benefits.And if things dried up I'd just have to travel for work,like the last time we had a Republican president.And if the economy totally tanked,sure I'd go to work at Home Depot and be the best employee I could be.And I wouldn't even go home,get on the Internet, and wish ill of other people.
Barry
IBEW Barry, you misunderstood some of my postings. I did say when hubby was a teamster, we, as a family, enjoyed wonderful health benes. It was after his company went out of business he found employment with an IBEW company. I must have misspoke or mistyped. The union is wonderful while you are employed, but I also spoke of "what ifs." As I said our son is working in an area where the union is not popular. That's why I mentioned working at Home Depot, he did that for a while to earn money and stay afloat, financially. And, I know for a fact the union frowns on a union member working for a non-union company, very, very, bad in the union's eyes and ears.
Stan, I agree with you 100%. For some people the union is probably a good thing, for me its a headache. The way I co-exist with them is by letting them jack my wallet. I found that if I participate in their fringe benifit program they'll let me alone.
Hubby worked as a Teamster for over 25 years. His company folded, long story. He was not at retirement age and fortunately knew an owner of an IBEW firm who hired him in a managerial position, not a teamster firm, told him to apply to IBEW on extenuating circumstances. Worked out well, till hubby retired. He didn't have enough time in IBEW and since his original firm went down under and wasn't paying into his retirement, he/we are up a creek. After 25 years as a Teamster, he gets $350 a month with no health benefits. How's that for a union taking care of their own?
Son is a member of IBEW, 4 years of schooling, loves electrical work. Has been told numerous times he works too fast, he must slow down because the longer the job takes the more money the company makes.
Unions are good with pay and health benes while you're working, I can attest to that, but look out when you retire. There are many hidden laws. Don't rely on your so-called retirement. Get IRA's, Roth, whatever you can. This is very good advice for everyone.
I work in a major metropolitan area(Boston) where big commercial and public projects are going on all the time consuming lots of union labor, unfortunately this is the only type of project where union labor seems to be used now. Residential and light commercial seem to be all about lowest bidder now, even downtown 500K+ projects are being farmed out to the non-union hack companies, and I say hacks because they are driving in guys from 100+ miles away to work for peanuts. We have large buildings going up in areas where the average home is 400K plus and guys are brought in from Maine to work for $12 an hour(electrical, steelwork, everything). I think personally I'd have a hard time handling the time-served based advancement unions offer but everybody else is pretty much focused on screwing the working man, I'd love to take my fledgling operation union and am going to look into using any union subs if possible because I know the employee is being paid a decent wage and I know of very very few non-union contractors who do this.
-Ray
Unions are good with pay and health benes while you're working, I can attest to that, but look out when you retire. There are many hidden laws. Don't rely on your so-called retirement. Get IRA's, Roth, whatever you can. This is very good advice for everyone.
That's pretty much what I was thinking ...
anyone can open an ira.
anyone can start investing on their own.
Don't count on someone else.
I'm self employeed ... covered the family myself ... now the wife's company offers health care are lower rates ... so that's how he have them. I'd switch in a heartbeat if I had to or if I could get a better rate for equal coverage.
I'm also starting my own investing. Found out that instead of hiding profits in biz expenses such as new vechicle or tools ... I can get the same tax benefits thru long term investing too.
No reason you have to be an employee of some big firm to get good benefits ...
Give them to yourself. Or ... find a small company that offers them. My last employer did ... that's why I picked them to work. They're a design/build firm with about 15 employees ... so it doesn't take a whole lot to do it.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Jeff, it sounds like you have a good plan for your financial future. Good luck.
Rip
It was the superintendent, when he was working in a large city on Federal Property.