I’ve discovered several things about the “Spec house from hell” since we moved into it.
For one, things are REALLY quiet. I sleep better at night without trucks rumbling by all night. The old house was on a busy street the new one is on the end of a dead end street.
The acoustics in the great room are incredible. The stereo sounds amazing. Don’t know if that’s just luck, or if the 13′ vaulted ceiling or room arrangement have something to do with it.
And we have one hack of a loud water hammer problem. The copper pipes hammer a bit when the washer kicks on and off. But it’s not too annoying.
The biggest problem is with the pipe from the sanitary sump. When it kicks off, the one-way valve slams closed. It sounds like someone has hit the bottom of the floor trusses with a 3# hammer.
So I’m wondering – What can be done about it? Can air/expansion chambers be added, like are one the copper supply pipes? Or is there some other solution that I don’t know about?
An erection doesn’t count as personal growth.
Replies
Call the builder and complain. Threaten to withhold funds until it's corrected. Be sure to talk with the builders wife and express your dissatisfaction ... then run like he11.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Maybe you don't remamber the Spec House from Hell story.
Unfortunately, I'm the builder.
(-:It's like raising 120 kids all going through puberty at the same time.
I still have my mind, thank you very much ... I knew the story ... just thought I would give a typical BT response :)
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Sorry - I didn't pick up on the humor.
Can't be so subtle with us rednecks.
(-:Last night I had a dream that my flour sack was kidnapped and the abductors started sending me muffins in the mail. [Frasier]
Sounds like what you have is due to sudden changes in water pressure. The new house must have great water pressure. Gotta love those showers!
Pick up a hammer arrestor (?) at the plumbing supply house. It's a spring loaded chamber that absorbs sudden changes in pressure. Looks like a copper test tube. It is installed using a copper t on the feeds, up stream from the valve. You hay need to open a wall to install it, but they work great. A lot if the prewart bldgs in NYC have this kind of problem and every valve that doesn't open slowly - sudden on and off like a washing machine - sounds a loud BAMB! These eliminate it.
F.
I think you misunderstood -
The water hammer in the copper pipes is fairly minor. All the copper pipes already have air chambers.
The problem is in the ~2" pipe that comes from the sanitary sump. It has some pretty major water hammer. A nice, low pitched "BOOM" that echoes through the house.It's not dying for a faith that's hard. It's living up to it.
Well, that's a horse of a different color!
F.
Put it out in the yard like mine.
Seriously, where is the check valve?
If it is down by the pump then moving it or a 2nd one up at the high point might help.
The check valve is about 2' off the floor.
Since the basement has 9' (nominal) walls, there's roughly 7' of pipe above it.Life is playing a violin solo in public and learning the instrument as one goes on.
Try listenting to it down in the basment when it cycles.
I think that 7ft might be doing it.
Hammer arrestor.
A big one. Maybe 2. One before the pump and one after the back flow valve. One will fix it, but I don't know which one.
A 2" by 7' sounds good. Be sure and put air valve stems on 'em, 'cuz there's no easy way to drain that system.
SamT.
easy hell, looks like a plumbers job....{G}
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
"Put it out in the yard like mine."
I missed that line the first time through.
Remember that this is the SANITARY sump - Not the groundwater sump. Don't think that would be a good idea.
The modern, PC rendeck just doesn't do things like that anymore.
(-:If two men agree on everything, you can be sure only one of them is doing the thinking.
Nope, they are done all the time.
Our city (about 300 homes) converted from gravity feed sewers to a pressure grinder system. There are tanks, I think about 50-70 gals, in the yard with grinder pumps. Then feed into a relatively pressure main that is higher in the street.
This was done because the orignal sewer lines where put in in 1928 and desgined for sumemr cabins. Now it is full time homes (with washers and disposals), in many places house had been built over the lines, and a number of the lines had deterioated.
A friend of mine has a house in an area that was developed about 20 years ago. The terraine was such that they used a similar system.
Never seen or heard of a "pressure grinder system."
I thought you meant just run the pipe out the back wall and let it pump out into the yard.
I've seen that done before with groundwater sumps.If you break anything down into its subatomic particles, what *isn't* natural? Cheese Whiz?
Boss-
When I saw the " unusual water hammer" title, I thought Pro-Deck had another hammer for his collection <g>
As far as the noise itself goes, I can't be any help- I f*** up any plumbing I touch. My skills seem to be limited to wood.
It might be that the valve is simply defective. If it delays closing the water would build downward momentum, then WHAM!
It might help if there were a bend in the vertical pipe above the valve -- like an expansion loop in a steam pipe. Also, check how the pipe is secured and make sure it's tied to rigid framing and not to something that will act like a drum-head.
BTW, you can buy hammer arresters that screw right on to the washer faucets. Much better than the air stubs.
Boss
How about cutting the pipe and put in a rubber coupling, it might keep the valve vibrations from getting to the place were the pipe attaches to the house?
Mike
It's O.k. to think out of the box, Just don't walk off of the plank!
Boss, it may be the "head" of the lift..backing down, like was said. I'd do both things: add another backflow valve uphill, and a coupler (no hub) to isolate the vibration..either crank the pipe tight assed to the support, or free stand it..one has GOT to work.
Option # 2....outhouse.
edit: is there a pressure vent/vacuum release?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Edited 8/19/2004 3:23 pm ET by SPHERE
"Option # 2....outhouse."
There's gotta be something poetic about the #2 thing, but I just can't put my finger on it. (-:
"is there a pressure vent/vacuum release?"
No.I said "no" to drugs, but they just wouldn't listen.
keep the fingers AWAY from the #2..OK?
second order of longevity
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
I'm with Mike - I don't see many of those systems, but they usually have a short (6" - 9"???) rubber section
"It is as hard for the good to suspect evil, as it is for the bad to suspect good."
-- Marcus Tullius Cicero, statesman, orator, writer (106-43 BCE)
Thinking about this, the couple of times I've seen an ejector pump setup there were Ferncos on both sides of the check valve. I always assumed this was just for ease of maintenance, but maybe it's in the specs somewhere, intended to prevent this sort of hammer.
What's a "Ferncos" ???Be happy. It is a way of being wise.
Rubber coupling with hose clamps. This one is a reducer, but you can also get straight ones, ones with a stainless shield around them, etc. I would guess that one on each side of a check valve has more to do with ease of replacing the check valve, but cushioning water hammer is also plausible.
http://ts.smoothcorp.com/cornerhardware/156370.400x396.jpeg
When the water pressure hits the pipe, it makes it hit the bottom of the joist.
Just grab various sections of the pipe and shake it up and down. You will cause the pipe to bang the joist.
At that spot, place old carpet padding between the joist and pipe and then there will be no water hammer noise.
Just a thought, we've a sump for the laundry, the plumber installed a section of pvc pipe in the copper pipe, with the backflow arrestor in it just above the pump. We have not had any noise problem from the valve.
Not a plumber I don't know if that bset up would work on the sanitary sump.
Bob B.
Something to look for in the systems that are waterhammering, are long (>15') straght runs of undisturbed pipe. Understand that a classic waterhammer is a pressure pulse casued by a sudden flow stoppage. That pressure pulse, as do many flow parameters, is affected by pipe bends, etc. I had a 30' run of 1" copper coming from where the well pump discharge entered the house to cross to the mech room. Used to get a heck of hammer when the pump shutoff, especially during continued, steady use (like yard watering). I cut out a 4" section, dropped it a few inches, with a few 90's and the problem was greatly reduced.