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Im scared to death of propane. Yet our new house has no natural gas to the subdivision, and we’d like to try a ventless gas fireplace (mainly because it would be awkward to build a chimney in the place we’d like to put it). I havent yet talked with specific dealers about it , but I have heard of it being done. Maybe put an extra shutoff valve just outside the wall or something? Anybody have any thoughts ideas or opinions? Thanks!
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Are you afraid of propane because the heavier-than-air gasses collect in low spots until they find a pilot light to ignite from? Or because of the (remote) chance of the tank going BOOM? Or the slightly more likely, but still rare occurence of the tank getting knocked off its moorings by snow or traffic and venting into the house until it finds an ignition source? Or the proven human carcinogens in propane? Or just the high and varible cost per BTU compared to natural gas?
By "ventless" do you mean "chimneyless" direct-vent that exhaust out a sidewall? Maybe something like a hanging sign on the fireplace stating "Valve Closed" would give you some peace of mind. Like the traditional "Damper Closed" hanging down in the fireplace or the "Gear Up" that pilots clip on the controls as a reminder during approachs.
Seems very doable. And since you are cognizant of the concerns about propane, you will be safer than most. -David
*There's been a lot of discussion of these (search archives), mostly negative. The main problem is that you have to share the air with these things, and breathe all their combustion exhaust (supposedly the catalytic converter is supposed to take care of this...). If starved for air, they will shift from releasing carbon dioxide to carbon monoxide (again, there's supposed to be an O2 sensor, but...). They also pump up the humidity. The one I have, for my comfort in a well-vented area I'm working this winter, prohibits installation in bathrooms and sleeping areas -- you can guess why. Ventless is illegal in some areas.There is an easy and safe alternative, the vented kind that only need a through-the-wall collared vent. There should of course be a shutoff valve at the tank in case the piping leaks, and you can get gas detectors if you like ... but the burner already has a thermocouple to shut off the gas on flame-out, much like a furnace, and the gas has (I believe) the usual rotten-egg smell added.
*Part of the problem with gas fire places is that natural gas and propane produce a blue flame when burning well. To get a more "realistic flame " in a fireplace the combustion is purposefully altered to produce more yellow and less blue color. this can also lead to a hell of a lot of carbon monoxide being dumped into the room. Seems like I have heard that ventless fireplaces were outlawed in Canada ( could someone from there confirm this) , but as usual we didn't let something like safety get in the way of corperate profits her in the U S.Don't go ventless
*My wife and I vacation in northern Canada in the summer and these propane fireplaces are popular there (actually, the ones I've seen look just like a Vermont Castings wood stove and may be made by them). They look nice and produce a lot of heat for their size. I can't say if ventless versions are outlawed in Canada but the ones I've seen there were all vented out a side wall.
*I don't know enough about propane to be scared of it, per se.I know a bit about CO and ventless heaters.[Note: having recently learned about the "Darwin Awards", notice is hereby given that the following is joke. b Don't actually do it!Sad, isn't it?]I believe the only safe way to use propane with a ventless heater is the following:Dig a pit about 4' in diameter and 3-5' deep. Put the ventless heater in the pit. Fill the pit with propane. Test the heater's functioning by tossing a match in (from a b loooongway away.)Following this test, you'll never again have to worry about that ventless heater injurying or killing you with CO.For some scary info on ventless heaters, check out JLC's article at http://www.jlconline.com/jlc/archive/energy/vent/Bob
*A couple of years ago in a provincial park, the wardens were confuscating those catalytic tent heaters, and I've never seen a catalytic in a residence; so, it's quite probable that they're not allowed in Ontario. Sealed propane/natural gas firepaces and stoves (direct vent or chimney) with an outside-the-house air feed are very popular.
andrew,
I read your reply in Breaktime archives about a "vented gas fireplace that needs only a through-the-wall collared vent". Do you know of any manufacturers? We are trying to avoid the ventless route. Thanks.
TEB
Do you mean a direct vent fireplace? Ventless ones are, indeed, outlawed in Canada. Something about relatively tight houses, carbon monoxide, I dunno. Direct vents are extremely popular - back the sucker up to an outside wall, and you just have a 4" dia vent to the outside. (I know one house where it vents onto the porch - I'm not sure I'd want my kids playing on a porch with a propane fireplace venting at them at 48" off the floor......)
If that's what you mean, there's a gazillion manufacturers out there.
I recently got a Rinnai thru the wall vented propane furnace/heater that has an adapter kit for natural gas if desired.
I really like the thing. Economy modes with temp settings.
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Im scared to death of propane. Yet our new house has no natural gas to the subdivision, and we'd like to try a ventless gas fireplace (mainly because it would be awkward to build a chimney in the place we'd like to put it). I havent yet talked with specific dealers about it , but I have heard of it being done. Maybe put an extra shutoff valve just outside the wall or something? Anybody have any thoughts ideas or opinions? Thanks!