Hadn’t posted on here in a while… hope everyone has been well.
I’ve got a customer that just recently bought a house and now discovered a leaky upstairs shower above the living room ceiling. I opened up the ceiling today, stopped up the drain, filled the pan with water and found a very siginicant leak – a 3/4 inch diameter hole that was drilled in the wrong place when the plummer was running the supply lines to the tub… like right thru the edge of the shower pan membrane. And yes, it’s a tiled shower.
I cut the some plywood away from around the hole, and I’m hoping for the homeowner’s sake that this can be patched vrs. installing a new shower pan liner – and all that goes with such a project.
The house is probably 20 years old, in cary NC, and the existing membran looks to be some sort of fiberous possibly tar type. It’s a very uniform thickness, so I dont think it was hot-mopped. not sure if it’s a rubber product or what, but it’s not the newer pvc membrane. I cut a peice off from higer up the curb wall and tested a rubber tire patch, but wasn’t convinced it would hold in the long term.
Anyone have any sugestions on this one? I have a picture attached….
Thanks,
Scott
s
Replies
I'll try again with the picture...
Regarding the pic:
You have to wait a while after you hit "upload" until the file name shows up at the bottom of the screen before you hit "done." If your link is slow, it can take a while.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I think I got it this time...
The brown stuff to the left of the hole is a film that coats the membrane, easily flaked off to get to the rubbery / fiberous part. to the far left is the 2x4 sole plate notched out for access.
Edited 12/18/2007 4:10 pm ET by drbgwood
at 2MB that must be one seriously huge hole...
did anyone consider getting the plumber to take care of his err..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
the hole's about 3/4 inch.
I'm sure the plumber is in another line of work by now.
at 2MB there will a lot less viewers...
can you inject the hole with and epoxy paste???
can one tile over the hole be removed???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I'll try to scale down the picture, although when I re-click on it here, it comes up as a small picture... no problem.
Getting to it from the top side to patch thru just one or a few tiles sounds like something to think about. I understand patches definatly work better on the higher pressure side of whatever is getting patched.
maybe this will be easier to veiw
A pressure patch is one possibility -- rig framing to press against the hole (and patch material) to hold it in place and under slight pressure. Include something springy (maybe even actual springs) in the framing so that pressure is maintained even as the area bounces a little.BTW, is this on the bottom, side, or where? How much does the pan give if someone stands in it?
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
I know what I'd propose if they wanted me to warrant the repair: tear out the entire pan and do it my way.
$2500 plus ceiling repairs (another $1000 or 2). Those can be submitted for an insurance claim but I wouldn't if I was the homeowner.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I was able to see the pic (I like large size pics as the detail is better even though they stop some folks from viewing). That shower pan looks to be quite old as its not a neoprene one is it?
I hate to say it but I think I would convince the HO to have you rip it all out and redo it. Reason being is what is there is another error on another part of it (and besides it looks pretty old to me)???? YOU then get blamed for that leak as you "touched it last" and then you are fixing it all for free.
Just my two cents and the way I would do it. I know that means more $$ for the HO to spend but maybe that was something the home inspection should have revealed?
Mike
rippin it all out would be the fix all - end all, just trying to find, or rule out, any easier solutions before I sell that route. I alway's try to put myself in my customers shoes, and it's gona suck if I tell them we have to rip the shower tile out in the house they just bought. They just got though dealing with a major electrical problem last month... that's a whole nother story. As for warrantying a patch, we discussed the risk with patching vrs. replacing today, so that base is covered... that said, I don't wont to do a patch unless I'm really sure it's going to work permenantly.
I'm digging the idea of patching from the top with just one or a few tiles taken out. Is there any sort of hot-patch, like boiling hot tar, that I might look into? does tar and rubber stick together?
Someone asked.... the photo is from the bottom side.
Seems to me that there's not a high risk (to the customer) in attempting to patch it. It would be a slow leak at worst, and you indicated that it's in the middle of a ceiling, so nothing to be damaged but drywall (so long as they don't install wool carpet or some such and then ignore dripping).
I'd say offer to repair it as best you can but get them to sign a waiver of liability. If the repair only lasts 5-10 years they're probably still money ahead, vs a complete tearout now.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
"Seems to me that there's not a high risk (to the customer) "I disagree because of the fear of mold. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I don't think tar is going to be compatible with any sort of rubber or plastic membrane.
Are you pretty convinced it's a membrane and not tar/paint?
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Yep, definatly a membrane. it's factory made uniform thickness, and their was part of some writing on a very small peice I was able to cut from up higher in the wall.
Someone asked.... the photo is from the bottom side.
So the hole is actually in the bottom, and not in a side?
Was this membrane adhered to some sort of plywood that you cut away?
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Yes, the hole is in the bottom of the membrane near the edge (near under the faucet handles).
I used a muti-master and very carefully cut the plywood underneth out from around the hole. The membrane did not adhear to the plywood. as well, I can see though a larger near-by hole that the membrane it folded up the shower wall for about 8 inches.
Any opinion on using PL roofing polyurathane caulk to adhere a rubber top-side patch?... then even cover that with gorrilla tape, or rubberized flashing tape... once I cover it back over with the top side morter, I feel like it will stay put. Even if it ever does leak, it should only be a slight drip, compaired to the 3/4 inch diameter gusher they have now.
Late hour brain storming here...
How do you know that there is only one hole? Wouldn't you have to take all the tile up to inspect the entire membrane? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
nice dark cloud touch Blue...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
excellent question, and one that I have considered. It's a large 3/4 inch hole right next to where two other holes the same size were drilled to run the water supply lines. I'm pretty sure the plumber (all of whom should be extensively tested, specially licensed, and closely supervised by a non-plumbing craftsman before they are allowed to purchace or use any wood cutting or borring tool) looked both ways to see if anyone was watching when he realized what he did, quickley finished up, told the sheet rock guys to get a move on it, and got the heck out of dodge. The pan most likley had been tested before he did his thing. This was the only spot I could see water comming from... odd's are it's the only leak.
My best attemp was to take a small peice of membrane from up high, heat it and the area right around the hole with a torch, getting it melting hot on just the surface of each. stuck them together. seamed like it would work, but when I filled the pan with water, had some minor leakage still. did the same thing on the topside with a few tiles removed, no improvement.
It was worth a try.... Demo'd the tile shower floor and began putting in the new liner this afternoon.
I'd think the original homeowners, or sellers in this case, had to have know about this problem. In fact the ceiling had been repaired there before, I'm guessing right before they put the house on the market. I can't imagine living there for years and years with a 3/4 hole in the upstairs shower pan. It certainly wasn't disclosed to the new homeowners though.
It was probably OK if you took real quick showers.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Doesn't this belong in that realtors ethics thread?
Non disclosure could be a way for the new owner to get the repair paid for by the seller.
i know it's too late now................but for temp repairs i've had good luck sealing things with butyl flashing tape and warming it up with a hot air gun and using a roller to seal all the edges..............i repaired my bath once with a strip of epdm roofing once because i knew i would be tearing it all out soon ............. it lasted the 3 years it took!!!
And, since we're winding down -- was it just me that felt the thread title sounded like a children's book?
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
It might work, probably, but what if!?!?
Unless you can find a plumber down there that worked with the stuff, I would be concerned that whatever you attempt to stick to it could react and separate and then leak away.
I agree with whomever commented on the mold. It's already there, but what if they come back to you and decide to play pin the tail on you.
It is better to do it right and not gamble. Client will be happier in the long run with the job done right.
I've always wondered if this would be a good application for geocel.
I would guess you would have to make sure you had solid material to stick to and possibly put some kind of structural backing for the geocel.
I assume that this is the exact location and only location of the leak. I would also make sure that the shower pan liner and drain have a proper weep hole configuration. Otherwise, once you patch up this hole, the shower will start to retain water.
Then the responsibility for the leak will have shifted to you. This is a good reason to do the job right. We have all been in the position where we had to find money for a major repair, and it didn't seem fair. But it happens all the time.
Goop. Smear a layer overthe hole and lay some drywall fiber mesh tape over it and a second coat of Goop. Wear disposable gloves. Goop is really sticky stuff.
Give the repair a couple of days to setup and leak test it for a couple of days.
I really think that it will work.
I'm all for using creative methods, but I wouldn't want you guys fixing my leaky shower. Why not save a few more pennies and just shove some gum in the hole?
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I was kinda thinking the same thing.... cept, maybe just suggest She hold her finger over the hole while He is showering and He could do the same for her when he gets done.
Maybe run some trim around that hole in the ceiling so it looks nice.
dug
I'm not scared of mold ...
but I would be scared of all the rotten wood that likes to hang out in leaky old showers ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa