*
I’m in the planning stages of building a new home. I like the look warm appeal of high quality wood windows, but a friend is trying to talk me into considering vinyl. Does vinyl have any serious negatives which I should know about? Pros? Cons?
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
The FHB Podcast crew takes a closer look at an interesting roof.
Featured Video
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
*
Jim - I'm not a contractor , just a homeowner, but I had my 30 year old wood double hungs replaced with vinyl double hungs made by Wilmes in southern Indiana about 8 years ago - these are Great!. They don't mildew ( like paint or varnished do ) , don't sweat, and you can lean them in to clean or just pop them out - either way is very easy. Used to have to get out the extension ladder to clean windows.
I sure wouldn't trade back, even for new wood windows. The double pane is guaranteed for life, and they do replace them because I had one lose it's seal. No questions asked.
Good luck
Jared
*If you can afford wood windows, you should not consider vinyl. The only advantage that vinyl has over wood is cost. If cost is no object, or if you just want the best, consider aluminum clad wood windows.
*I know there are alot of carpentry purists that insist that wood is better. I don't think so. Vinyl will never swell, rot, peel paint, or crumble. You will never have that rough paint edge on your glass with vinyl windows.Quality wood windows that are kept painted and if you keep debris out of the sash will last a very long time. Every few years you will need to sand and paint again. If the bottom of the sash is wet most of the time, even painted windows will decay.Vinyl extrusions can be created that are better insulators than wood and the "tightness" of the windows won't change with humidity. Tilt wash is a nice feature.If you like the look of wood, there are vinyl windows with a wood vener on the interior. To those carpentry purists, I say "where's that vinyl framing lumber I ordered?"
*
I get to do maintenance on a lot of wood windows left alone and poorly maintained, and I've made quite a study of old wood windows that apear to have survived the elements without the help I would have expected necessary. when replacing sashes I cannot get clear wood of an equal grade and I notice the manufacturers are using jointed and laminate combinations to off set this issue of material availability.
What I'm saying is... you may have been able to make an argument in favor of wood in buildings built 30 years ago, but in new construction the importance of protecting the soft wood the windows are being made of is CRITICAL. Vinyl is a very good way to do this.
Vinyl is not indestructable, just check out any 20 year old dashboard. Then check the manufactures warrantee and make sure it'll be there.
There are no 30 year old vinyl windows you can look at are there?!
*
No, but there are researchers using accelerated aging to compare different window types. I don't have the material at hand, but the National Research Council here in Canada and the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation do a lot of cutting edge research into housing issues (pretty tough climate up here). From what I recall of the latest findings, properly maintained wood windows last two to three times longer than vinyl; in fact, the lifespan of a vinyl window is pretty short, considering the hype.
*Definitly wood with alumninum cladding. Not vinyl cladding. Also pay attention to construction details on the window. While some of the post lament about painting & mildew, that applies to an all wood window, no cladding on the outside. As for sweating windows, there is currently another thread on the subject. The bottom line is any window will sweat under the right condition. The vinyl fans often don't realkize their vinyl replacement windows don't sweat because they fit the opening tight & have been properly insulated & sealed preventing cold air intrusions which mixed with the warm moist air inside the house cause sweat. Even a crappy wenco window can be installed correctly & not sweat.
*Vinyl, as it is exposed to long-term UV, degrades. It undergoes oxidation, causing it to get brittle. If you get a skin failure in vinyl, your window will go downhill rapidly, and there are no easy, "looks good as new" repair kits o remedy the problem. Also, UV exposure will cause the colorant in the vinyl to fade over time. Wood, by virtue of being a natural product, does have maintenance requirements. Yes, every 7-10 years or so the paint may very well need to be touched up. You can hire it out or you can get off your couch and actually do something moderately physical. NOTE: Always consult your physician before undertaking any physical activity program. Past performance is no guarantee of future return. Your performance may vary from what others have seen. Proceed forward at your own risk. Always brush your teeth after meals to prevent tooth decay.All modern windows offer the conveniences of a tilt-in sash, etc. The best maker of woodies (my opinion) is Marvin.Aesthetics? Warmth? From vinyl?Read over Mike Mahans post, and proceed onward. Best of luck in your endevour to avoid having your house looking like a plastic garbage can.
*In my area (Quebec,Canada), wood is almost never considered. The prefered choice is aluminium (not aluminium clad). The extreme temperature changes between summer and winter causes wood windows to shrink and warp thus not sealing properly when closed. Maintenance is also a factor. There are many builders that are using vinyl aswell but I've seen some colored vinyl fade after 2 years(red changed to pink..Lovely!) I suppose that would depend on the quality but they say if you go for vinyl stay away from dark colors which will fade over time. I personally prefer the look of wood but it makes no sense in my area. Aluminium is definately better in colder climates. They also make aluminium windows with wood trim on the inside but that becomes expensive.Gaby
*Jim, Aluminum-clad wood windows are the most beautiful and maintanence free windows in my opinion. I always cringe when I see the local top "quality" builders around Seattle put the cheapest white plastic you can possibly find into $500K homes. They look OK from the outside if your finish is a light paint, but the real eyesore is the clash of warm cedar siding with white plastic. I guess the people buying these homes have no more of an eye for art than the builders do!
*
Jim, I am a contractor and specilize in window replacement of every type. Here in Ca, most everybody is doing the vinyl, mostly because it is cost effective. On my house I have installed both, the windows are vinyl while my patio doors are wood with vinyl cladding. Over the years installing I noticed most call backs came from vinyl patio doors, the vinyl is not strong enough to make the door work efficiently. If I were building the home that I thought I was going to die in, I most certainly would go with a wood with aluminum cladding. I personally really like Pella, yes they are expensive. I will guarantee that all manufatured DBL pane windows will fail at some point, with Pella the designer series the inner pane of glass is removable, that way in 25 years you can clean it instead of replace it.
As for my house I plan on moving in the next 15 years so I did not go to that expense, so I will let somebody elese worry about the failure.
*
Jim:
The tilt sash feature is nice. Many (most?) wood windows come with this feature these days so I don't think this a factor in the equation.
One drawback to vinyl is: Vinyl shrinks and expands quite a bit with temperature fluctuations. If you do some research into this, I thing you may be surprised. Someplace, I think I read that it shrinks/expands 10 times more than wood. So what? Well, that means that if you have wood or brick siding, gaps will open during the winter cold. Because of this expansion/contraction, it is not recommended to caulk vinyl.
Another consideration is that all the 100% vinyl windows I have seen require that the interior jamb be boxed in with 1x material prior to applying the casing - which will, at least partially, offset the money saved by purchasing vinyl windows.
Further, vinyl windows give a different look. Most do not have brick mold (the exterior molding). I think this look is OK with vinyl siding, but is not too good with other exterior finishes. Therefore, IMO, vinyl windows are a good choice for a vinyl sided house. Many clad windows also do not have brick mold. IMO, brick mold is consistent with more traditional style architecture.
Bottom line: are you building low end? If so, go 100% vinyl. Some mid end houses use them too. If you are building a nice custom home, consider some of the clad window products mentioned in above posts, or some manufacturers sell nice prefinished wood windows. Some of these products can give you the best of both worlds - low maintenance with the good looks. Some clad windows can be had for not so much money from the "big box" stores... if the house is designed to use commonly available sizes (not special order).
Which reminds me of something else - vinyl windows are often sized differently than wood & clad windows. Therefore, IMO, the vinyl/not decision should be made prior to finalizing the house plans.
To learn more about vinyl windows, read this.
Also, visit these web sites:
Marvin
Anderson
Window Consumer Guide
Pella
Crestline
Hurd
Kolbe
*I guess I am old fashioned. I like wood windows. The ones in my home have lasted 105 years. If you think for a minute that you can get that out of plastic, you're nuts!Wood on the inside can be stained. Plastic windows can not be, except you can get some plastic that supposedly looks like wood. Yeah, right, like those wood panels on station wagons and vans look like wook.Got some money? Get some quality custom wood windows with quality double pane glass. They are the best.I don't put plastic anything on my homes. This goes for siding, trim or anything.
*Jim: We have pella clad casements & dbl. hung windows in our house. We had alum junk when we moved in. The first side I replaced was 24yrs. ago. ( north side ). The west side was next then the east & finally the south. On side each year.I had to re-finish the east windows this year. They are 20 plus years in service & still in excellent shape. I did replace the rollers on the screen door of the slider when I re-finished it this year. (this door is part of the east side windows). I have to admit I should have re-finished the sliding door 3 years ago but like a lot of contrs. my things seem to get pushed back. I do not have enough first hand experience with vinyl windows to comment on the product as compared to pella. We live in western ne. The temp. change is from 100 plus in the summer to -30 in the winter and quite a bit of wind with both. 50mph is not uncommon. If I had to install new windows today I would use pella.our experience with the product & my humble opinion.Ron.
*Jim,Confused now?A lot of your decision should depend on where you live and how much you are willing to inspect and maintain your windows. Yes top of the line windows are Marvin or Pella (stay away from Pella Pro line). There are also some very good windows mentioned before. The more extreme your enviroment the more matainance. Do not think you are going to get 150 years out of new windows without yearly matainence. Vinyl does away with yearly matainance but will probably have to be replaced in 30 to 50 years. Do not use them in extremely cold climates, as our canadial friends have mentioned. They do well in warm wet climates. the new pro sheild vinyl windows have gone to an acrylic not a plastisized window. the inside is wood so it can be stained or painted. The acrylic will not (supposidly) chalk and crack over years. Look at other houses in the neighborhood and be honest with yourself about how you will maintain the windows.Rick Tuk
*My preference is wood with alumninum cladding. Vinyl windows are ugly and move like a frieght train.(This is one man's opinion). I find it to be quite a travesity when a person shells out good money for wood base,casing, etc, and puts in white vinyl windows.Yuck!
*Jim, et al,The emotional response to plastic is very interesting. I too hate it for homebuilding, yet I love it for things like appliances and computers and cars. Plastic houses just feel too toy-like to me. Yet others obviously have no aversion to it at all. From an economic point of view, it would be wise to evaluate what kind of house you have. When you go to sell does the house as a whole appeal more to the kind of person who is buying on aesthetic considerations, or to the kind of person who is looking for ease of maintance above all.I know my father in law looks at plastic houses and loves them, and I wouldn't be caught dead in one. Decide who you are, who your resale market is, and go from there.Practically speaking, I think vinyl windows would serve you better in the short term for maintainance purposes, but in the long term wood is the better option simply because it is renewable. I just finished refurbishing the last of my 135-year-old wood windows. There was absolutely nothing wrong with them that some time on the table saw, a little epoxy here and there, and some reglazing and weatherstripping wouldn't fix. It would have been cheaper to just pop new ones in the holes, But I like the aesthetics of old. I even replaced the broken and missing glass with vintage glass so I would have a nice distorted view of the world out my window. I don't know that a vinyl window will ever be re-buildable. At first blush it's easy to say "well, it's cheaper to just replace them anyway", but does that still hold true after they've been replaced three times in the span of one rebuilding of a wood window?There is no denying that tilt-to-clean, double-glazed windows, of any material would be easier to use and maintain. Just boring to look at and out of.Just some thoughts,Steve
*Good wood windows are gooder than vinyl. I have wood [pella] in my home but I will put anything in your house that you want to pay for. L. Siders
*I vote for aluminum-clad wood. Our windows are 11 years old and still work/look nearly new. The color on the outside is a bit faded in places (any fixes for this?). I've seen too many warped vinyl windows at friends' homes.
*Don,Regarding the faded color and a fix. I could be wrong, and I don't like to be blunt, but I think it's called paint.The paint companies have nothing to worry about yet.Rich Beckman
*Well I guess it all depends on where you live and what your preferences are. For example if you live in the arctic and want minumum maintenance vinyl is the only way to go. Or, maybe you live in the Rockies and want to carry a rustic theme to the windows which would make wood the only way to go.For our benefit it would be nice for you to post what your decision was and why.
*
I used to be a salesman for "100% Virgin Vinyl Windows", yes the same you see everyday that retailed for up to $900- $1200.00 each. Then the sales game started til the price came down to around $600 each for large quantities done all at once. And yes, I found out what the wholesale price was before volume rebates, prizes, etc. That's one reason I would never put vinyl in my own home.
My feelings are that quality wood with a quality exterior membrane, be it paint, painted aluminum or UV protected vinyl is far superior to any all vinyl or vinyl w/aluminum internal frame window.
Why? Vinyl constantly expands and contracts around a semi solid substructure, glass and the result is a seal that is bound to open and let in moisture which shows up as a foggy surface between the panes. Also, even high quality vinyls will slowly deteriorate over time. You can feel this by rubbing a finger over the surface. It may feel either like chaulk or like it has small pits that trap dirt.
Of course, the manufacturers and their sales reps may come up with something new. Too bad customers don't take the time to read real reviews in trade mags so they don't get taken. I also got taken by the company I sold for.
Growing up in Northern Ca, I had wooden double hung sashes in every house I lived in, so my preference for wood windows had been mostly nostalgic - they rarely operated smoothly if they hadn't been painted shut. Many homeowners, I think, enthusiastically choose non-wood windows as a reaction to "those crappy old wood widows". I think at least some of them would change their tune if they could see how one of their old double hungs was supposed to perform - before the many years of neglect and careless painters had taken their toll. Because I'm a believer in original equipment on an old and well built house, I've repaired/ refurbished many wood sashes that my clients had slated for replacement. I must say even I was amazed when I rebuilt my first double-hung and realized howwell designed they actually are. With new ropes, oiled pulleys and all of the excess paint removed (plus a little parafin wax in the runners), these windows are so well balanced that you can easily slide one open with one finger - try that with a vinyl sash. Neglected wood double hungs often leak and rattle, but if the runners are replaced and the top sash is operable, it's a thing of beauty to turn that old latch and see it actually work the way it was designed to - that's not just a lock, it actually wedges the two sashes apart vertically just before it cinches them together- amazing!
Most people expect to take windows for granted, using them at will and often ignoring any problems that arise - If a rope breaks, just yank up on it from side to side- it'll go. And when you want to close it, well you know, karate chop it a few times and then jump back! If some of the glaze falls off and water gets into the joints, that's not a problem - just get an L-bracket from Home D, and make sure you use big enough roofing nails to put it on. Oh, and before you paint the window shut, don't forget to smear plenty of non paintable caulk wherever there's a gap or a cracked corner - make sure you use the clear stuff so it won"t look bad.... On second thought, all of this seems like a lot of work- You should probably just get some of those new vinyl windows like the neighbor got. They look so pretty.
Saul
*
I'm in the planning stages of building a new home. I like the look warm appeal of high quality wood windows, but a friend is trying to talk me into considering vinyl. Does vinyl have any serious negatives which I should know about? Pros? Cons?
Some good old high quality car wax will bring back the color if it is not too far gone.