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I’m new to this site, and I think it’s a good thing. My question is this: How much is a fair hourly wage where you are?
We are carpentry sub-contractors in Dallas. All our employees are W2 and on the books. I can only charge my customers so much and so I can only pay so much. As non-union carpenters we are limited by what some less than honest sub-contracting companies pay the people they hire. I can’t hire a man as a sub when he is really my employee. I know I can pay him more of the share without the employee over-head, but it ain’t legal.
Just curious what you pay, and what tools you expect a top notch man to have.
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Replies
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Sir, if you expect people to respond you had better post an active email address. It just plain looks suspicious.
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Lawrence,
Sorry sir, I did not know the protocol. Anyone wishing to reach us in ways other than this forum can reach us at home via [email protected].
My name is Ed williams and the name of my company is Great American Carpentry Co. ( GACC ). We are located in Dallas, Texas.
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Now that is much better young man. you will no longer be chastised. Welcome to Breaktime...we had to be sure you weren't a spy from "knots".
A decent carpenter in the home improvement and residential markets here should get around 12-14 per hour. A lead might get 15-17. It's tough though when you have to compete with so many fly-by-nighters and "under-the-table" tradesmen and companies. Sometimes it seems as though everyone with a hammer (and not much else) is in business.
Pete Draganic
*Ed - seems to me, what's "fair" is whatever the goin rate is in your market. Dallas is a BIG town. So wages could be relatively high there. It is also in the South, so wages could tend to be a little lower in general. I'd say a good barometer would be the want ads. What are other contractors offering? You'd be hard pressed to find a good hand here in Western Washington for less than 20.00/hr. - yb
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Gentlemen,
Thank you for your responses.
Good carpenters here in Dallas can earn anywhere from $10 to $20 an hour depending on thier experience. I want to see the men that work with us make as much as they can, but I still have to have enough left to run my business. We supply them with all the large tools such as table saws, jointers, planers, shapers, scaffoldings and ladders. We also supply compresors, hoses and mitre boxes. Each man must supply his own basic set-up of personal tools such as saws, guns, routers, cords, levels, etc. The cost of the basic tools can be in the thousands.
Having been a carpenter myself for 25 years I have not seen that much of a change in our wages. I believe that carpenters will always be underpaid. Like the man said ..."anyone with a hammer"...
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GACC, do you help with your guys' repairs, supply blades, bits, nails, etc?
Hereabouts (NC), labor only supplies an apron and what fits in it. Good and experienced labor gets paid up to $15hr. A running vehicle helps.
Single subs or one man shows supply more what you're talking about. They'll have WC & GL insurance too. $20hr if they show up and aren't problems. Someone who has these attributes and can work on his own (without it having to be fixed or re-done) is getting $25-$35hr.
BB
BB
*BB, If they break a tool of thiers on my job, I fix it free. I supply all builders hardware ( nails, glue, anchors, bits, sawzall blades, regular saw blades and anything else disposable. I pay for sharpening and charge the GC for everything but the tool repairs.We don't have WC because we no longer are required to have it. When I dropped my WC we were at 24.4%. I couldn't afford it any more. I do have a accident policy that will fix them if they get hurt. But it leaves me hanging in case of a lawsuit. All the builders we work for require GL insurance. The guys do a lot of side work on thier own time which does net them more per hour, but it is not enough to keep them working full time like I can.I'd love to give these guys paid vacations, sick days, paid holidays medical insurance for them and thier families, but I just can't afford it. I told them they can have high wages up front or less with benefits. They all would rather have the money up front. Can't blame them. We do the best we can, just wish we could do more. I'm open to any good ideas.Thanks, Ed.
*Pete, What's "knots"Ed.
*GAAC You seem to be a fair, honest man who is concerned about doing right by your employees. You said that your workers are no longer covered under workman's comp. Does the GC cover them under his policy? You do understand that your failure to cover them is the most ignorant thing you can do. You are playing Russian roulette. Work enough men long enough, and one will eventually suffer a severe injury that will cause you to lose everything you have! Also, since you are concerned with being fair, don't these men deserved to be protected? I am sorry to seem harsh,but you need to worry far more about this than "fair wages".
*Any of you young guys that are listening, PAY ATTENTION. Do not work for anyone, anywhere, who does not carry workman's compensation insurance on you. When I was 35 I had been a carpenter for 15 years, give or take. I was "into it". I was pretty good and never was out of work when I didn't want to be. We were installing sidewalks at a church. First thing one morning, I bent over to pick up a screed rod and my back went. I had to have a disc removed. It was 6 months before I could even think about what I wanted to do with the rest of my life. Workman's comp paid all my medical bills and 1700.00 per month. It also paid for 1 years retraining in the field of my choice (all the while we still got 1700.00 per month). That's nothing to write home about, but it got my family through a rough time and helped us get back on our feet. Think about your family, they are counting on you. Don't work for "cash". Don't "sub" to someone unless you get paid your wages plus whatever it costs to carry workman's comp on yourself. You are not a gunslinger, no matter how romantic it seems. - yb
*Here in rural CA, the good carps get minimum $18/hr. This is for the guys who are responsible enough to drag their butt outta' bed w/o assistance. Also, they better have all the handtools--in good condition--as well as gun, hoses & compressor. Blades, et al, are supplied by the big cheese. He supplies the bigger stuff too. Basically, this labor rate does not mean just showing up with a hammer, but knowing the math too.The rate will go higher--$22-25 tops--after it is proven that the man can work unsupervised and perform to a level that requires very few callbacks. Speed is a factor here, but is somewhat negotiable based on type of project, degree of difficulty, etc.I agree with Cosmo about you rethinking your cancellation of W.C. This just in: recently recieved a pamphlet showing actual employer costs associated with OTJ injuries. Actual injuries were used in 3 different studies. One study showed a 4:1 dollar cost; the others showed a 6:1 dollar cost. That is, for every dollar spent by the employer on medical coverage, the employer spent another 3-5 doolars on all those "hidden" costs. Personally, I feel very naked without coverage. Too, just know you will be very alone when the time comes. Yes, coverage is expensive, but nothing compared to what you'll spend when it happens. I hope I never have the opportunity to say, "I told you so", but this is construction and unless you are a high stakes gambler you better get covered. Oh yeah, don't think you can get creative and bond around it or rely on the GC to come through. That would be a sure path to a lawsuit, which start at $50K. Harsh? Hah, if you think that's bad, just wait for that day somewhere out in the future.Anyway, sorry for the rant; just know it is very serious--required or not.
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Guys,
You all have reasonable and valid points about W.C. but unless you are in Texas paying about the highest rates in the U.S. and competing with a bunch of outlaws who have little or no Ins. of any kind you won't understand that GACC can either run without or find another line of work.
The people just will not pay for it if given a choice.
That is the free market at work here in Texas, a " Right To Work " state.
It Sucks.
Peace
Steve
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Steve, Amen. If we could get rid of some of the bootleggers here in Texas, we could all be better off. However, the GC's don't care - they have no liability. Give them a comp waiver and they're happy boys.
I know how it got so expensive. ( Does the word fraud come to mind? ) All those false claims by people who just want a free ride has made it impossible for for the rest of us to carry comp. My company cannot withstand a 25% cost increase in Dallas. The bootleggers made sure of that. Also, ask your insurance man to calculate the WC down payment cost on the yearly payroll for 15 carpenters. It's over the moon.
Youngbob, I'm glad to hear you got fixed. It was fortunate that the guy you were working for had comp.
I too have a disk injury from my years in this business. All I can do is work through the pain when it comes around. I also have tinitus in my right ear from an old Rockwell radial arm saw I was working with all day many years ago. Nobody had comp. Down here you roll with the punches or get out.
Cosmo, No. The GC gets a waiver from everyone down here so he doesn't have to pay on his WC audit. Trust me, I would love to have comp.
Rich, If I'm out of business, then my men and thier families have a 0:0 pay ratio. You will never have to say "I told you so", because " I knew it going in". Most of the guys that work with us came up with me through the ranks of GC's back when they hired thier own crews. We all know the score.
As Steve says, it sucks. St. Joseph look over us.
Thanks, Ed.
*Whats wrong with people getting their own insurance if they want to be covered in case of injury? I guess that would go against the idea that people no longer have any personal responsibility for their actions.
*Charles, I like the way you think. I'm quite capable of determining my own insurance wants and needs and more than a little tired of nanny government. You cant take away a mans right to fail without taking away his right to succeed.JonC
*Charles,This is a very interseting concept. To take it one step further, if my employees could get their own insurance, at a decent rate, my company might be able to compensate them for it. I'll talk with my insurance man after the holiday. It could become a paper work nightmare for my wife ( she does the books - bless her heart ). But I'll check into it and let you know what I find out.I also just emailed the Texas Workers Compensation Insurance Board to get a quote. Here are our specs:Carpentry sub-contractors.15 employees ( average @ $16.25 per hr.).40 hrs. per week.Nothing over 2 stories.Some framing - mostly trim and cabinets.I asked them for a quote. We'll see how high it is.I'll let you know, but be prepared to be surprised.After all, this is Texas.
*GACC - here are some rates for Washington, per hour;wood frame bldg const. 1.88interior finish carpentry .97They used to have a category that fit real well for remodeling, kind of half way in between but they cut it out a couple years ago. I think roofing and drywall are the highest, but I couldn't dig them out. - yb
*"Knots" is the Fine Woodworking forum. Click on "Taunton Discussions" at the top, and you'll get a menu of different forums. Mind you, you're required to wear underwear when you go over there.
*Joe, Guess that counts me out.Today is my day off. I only get about six a year.Anybody need another beer?
*I am 30 years old and have been a carpenter for five years. Other than my boss, the lead man, who is there 1/2 the time I am the lead carpenter. I earn $11.50 an hour plus time and a half after 40 hours a week, I get two weeks paid vacation a year, plus an IRA into which they contribute 3% of my yearly income. The only thing I am required to have is my apron with basic hand tools.As far as workman's comp goes, I am glad my boss had it because I am on my second of six month's off due to a work-related broken back. Workman's comp pays my 40 hour wage but I loose out on my overtime. It also pays my medical bills which will be somewhere in the range of $100,000. --writing from Minnesota
*Another victim of the nannies, eh?Good luck Kinger. it is a long road back.
*We start people out at 9 an hour with workers comp,by the time taxes etc are done it costs us about 16 an hour.They go up from there to 16 an hour plus the benefits. After a while we offer a basic supplemental medical that covers only the employee, they can buy in for family members.We are too small for vacation pay or sick time. If an employee wants to earn extra money to cover vacations etc they can work more then 40 hours but at straight pay.If we require them to work overtime then they are compensated for it.They need to supply there own basic tools (hammers, tapes, etc) they need to get to the job on time and have a valid drivers license that we run through the insurance company. We take them out to lunch at least one time a month, supply donuts, coffee and pop on those hellish mornings or killer jobs and out to dinner at the start and end of each season. Workers comp.... is it worth it..yes I know so. I have had employees and good friends and myself get injured on the job and without workers comp would be in a sorry state. When I hire a sub I check to see if they have liability and bonds but not workers comp, that is there responsibility even though I do not like it. It is easy to say that government should not force us to have insurance. I wish that was so and when you sign a paper that says that you decline to have workers comp then you should have to sign a waiver that says I will not hold the government or my employer responsible for wages, food stamps, un-employment, retraining etc.and I will pay all my medical bills if injured on the job.( as long as the employer is not neglegent)I'm sure we have all worked with or know people who will cheat on taxes, collect food stamps and un-employment while working "under the table" and then bitch about taxes being so high. Gee I wonder what some reasons are for taxes and workers comp being high.
*Kinger, God speed to you. This is the worst of my nightmares. Broken back. How did it happen? Maybe we can learn from your misfortune.Ed.
*Kinger - when I finally let them go in and cut me, my family doctor told me to "cut the handle off my hammer". To forget about ever working as a carpenter again. I tried to change, but when you're born to do something, you're willing to pay any price. Be diligent in your rehab. Do your exercises. I've been back at it for nine years now. Not as fast, not as strong, but I relish every day. And if you have the calling, you will too. Good luck - yb
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Priced insurance lately? Even for a low-risk desk job. Get real.
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Ed,
Here is a message to any employee, when the boss tells you to do something concerning safety and you know it isn't right, don't do it. We use 16 penny sinkers to fasten brackets on our outside walls (for scaffolding)in preparation for putting on the roof. The correct way would be to bolt them on or at least lag them on. We were sheeting a roof and as I carried a sheet of OSB out to it's place, the nails pulled loose with no warning. I dropped, plywood, scaffolding, bracket and all about 25 feet. I had questioned their way of fastening when I started for them two years ago. Their reply was, that was the way they had always done it and it had worked fine, so keep working. By the time I got to the hospital the brackets were already being lagged on.
It was hard for me to go against their way of thinking, because I was trying to prove myself as a competent, compliant worker and that was wrong.
Anybody need a shadowbox? I'm taking orders.
*Kinger - don't get discouraged. There is nothing wrong with shadowbox makin'. That is almost exactly what I did to get myself going again, only it was big toy boxes for kids and deacon's benches. Then I started making educational stuff, then a friend asked me to fix a chair, another asked me to remodel her living room, and on and on for nine years. Now I no longer fear the future. Here is the secret; think of life as a river, you are in a boat, in the river of life. Now here is the most important part. Take the motor off you boat and throw it away. Just drift with the river, and see what rocks you bump into. I always had my motor "wide open" and so, never saw all the opportunities life held for me. Once I took my motor off, I relaxed, and my life has been fulfilling ever since.Maybe you think I'm "full of it". But this is how I dealt with your situation, and I have no regrets. If your motives are good, and you do your best, good things will come of it. Start buildin' those shadowboxes brother. - yb
*Kinger, Man, I've seen those things, and always felt uneasy about them. I guess my fears were well founded. I wish you all the luck in the world on your new journey. Like youngbob says, "do your best and good things will come of it". Good luck. Ed.
*Kinger, what kind of brackets do you need to put on the roof?blue
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I'm new at this to, so bear with me..
You did specify that you were a non-union (a non-signatory) contractor, and wanted to know what a fair wage was..
Well, what is the prevailing wage in your area, in other words, what do your UNION counterparts make (the entire benefit package)? That is what would be a fair wage.
But if you really wish to be fair, you might want to call your local UNION hall for more details. I'm sure thay will be more then happy to help you out....
There are parts of this country where carpenters either arnt or cant orgnize themselvs, this is where its really tough, but some of us are lucky enough to be represented on the bargining table, and are MUCH better off for it. We do get paid a reasonable living wage, not a lot, but enough to live off of, and enjoy reasonabley safe working conditions.
PROUD MEMBER CARPENTERS LOCAL #413
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Very good Jimbo...
Near the stream~
J
*Mike, We are in a "right to work" state. The carpenters union here in Texas has no teeth. I sub-contract from a union builder because he can't find the skilled people he needs at the hall. He says that all those guys want to do is work in the air-conditioned comercial jobs installing fixtures they built in their air-conditioned shops. I don't know if this is true, but he has been a union builder for over forty years here in Dallas. I lean towards believing him. I have tried to talk with the "hall", but they will have nothing to do with me. I keep hearing the word "scab" from them. F**k 'em, I don't need 'em. My experience with them has not been as positive as yours. Thanks for your input.Ed.
*Is there anyone out there, working for a union contractor, doing residential work? Most of the union work here in Western Washington is commercial. If you're lucky, you get to work on the bosses new house every 5 years, but for the most part, it's concrete forms and hardware. - jb
*Union carpenters working on residential housing is unheard of here in Ohio. The residential trades are tough, GC's will hire anyone that will do the job without regard to how well they will do the job and whether they have the insurances and such that they should have. Far too many residential subs don't even have insurance or pay taxes. I've have recently moved into the commercial arena in an effort to escape the competition of the above mentioned type. It is far better in commercial for those reasons.As for UNION carpenters, I don't want to say much because I'm sure I'll just start another unecessary fight here. That's why I won't mention that they are overpaid, lazy, greedy, spoiled little sissies that spend as much time as possible trying to get over on their employers for whatever they can. I won't even breath a word about any of that. Oh, did I forget to not mention that the UNION is the reason so much of our tax money is spent on improvements because everything has to be bid at prevailing wage? What need is there, logically, to pay a worker 28 per hour when he works every other job for 16? You sure the hell wouldn't call a contractor to your house and insist that he pay his help union scale before he works up your quote.As for the worker's comp. I carry it and it is somewhat reasonable here in Ohio but I completely understand the point made here about trying to compete against every dope with no insurances at all when you have to meet those expenses. It took me some time in business before I could afford to keep worker's comp. The problewm is that I don't have it oin myself because as the owner it would cost me more than all my help combined. The reason for that is all the abuse of WC by owners who take it on themselves. It should be law that all contractors need to carry it and GC who hire those who don't should be held liable too. Actually there is a law that you have to carry it but it is not enforced. So, either enforce it or don't hold any of us Liable for it. I think I'll go write the governor now.Pete Draganic
*For some reason, the phrase "Workers of the world unite" kept popping into my mind as I read Mike's post.JonC
*Mike, here in NY it seems no matter how booming the building is the union carpenters can never get a full year of work in without a layoff. Im 30 now , non union and have never been laid off. The union wage is nice.....when you make it. Just my opinion.
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Jeeze, the first time being on here, I seemed to have ruffled some feathers. First off, I am not an orginazor, nor a B.A. Just a simple rank and file member of the U.B.C. Having said that, there are other Brothers that are better equiped to answer your mis-givings then I. But, non the less Ill try. And thanks for being patiencent with me.
Any way, I was curious as to what it was like in other parts of the country. Here in Nothern Indiana and the Chicago land area the Trade Unions do have a somewhat strong presence. And like I said before, we are ALL better off for it, members and non-members alike. And frankly I was suprised at the amount of hostility shown towards the U.B.C. by fellow carpenters, an orginazation dedicated to the advancement of our trade.
I would like to go on about the Apprenticeship program, the journyman up-grading classes, the suppertentant training, ect.. I would also like to discuse the differances between residantial work, and commercial work. But we were discussing wages...
In every part of the nation there is an industary standard as to a prevailing wage for the individual trades. The only problem is WHO SETS IT??? We find that, in almost every case, when industary ALONE sets the standard, its almost allways the lowest one possable. Substandard pay, unsafe working conditions to name a few. This not only hurts all of us, but our trade as well. That is why it is up to us as craftsmen,and tradesmen, to set our own lofty standard. One of excellence, and pride in our craft. And this can ONLY be done by supporting the orginazing efforts of the U.B.C. and its on going efforts to bring all carpenters together, under one roof.
PEACE, MY BROTHERS.
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"And this can ONLY be done by supporting the orginizing efforts of the U.B.C. and it's ongoing efforts to bring all carpenters together under one roof."
I think NOT!
I am glad that you take such pride in your union membership,and I agree that unions have made great improvements in the working lives of most americans(members or not),BUT.....surely you are aware that there are a great many non-union tradesmen out there who work to the very highest standards of their trade and yet are still able to think for themselves and negotiate their own pay rates.
It is possible to exchange one master(the company) for an other master (the union)
Once again, I have nothing against your union membership,but you need to realize it isn't the only way.
Good Luck,Stephen
*Mike, Just how "lofty" can you get as a carpenter? Union or non-union, we are still carpenters. I know that I am doing what I do because this is what I chose. If money were my bottom line, I'd get out of this business in a heart beat. You don't become a cop for the money, and you don't become a fireman for the money. You damn sure don't become a carpenter "for the money". I know the union did a lot to pick the American worker up out of the pit, but that was a long time ago. We all have to say a giving of thanks to the people in the past who faced down management and made it possible for the American worker to have a better life. But I feel that the union has gone too far in some regards. No one disputes safty. No one wants a dangerous work area. No one wants to work 80 hours a week for slave wages. Those of us who work non-union make our own way. If we are not happy with the situation, we don't have to run to someone to protect us. We can take care of ourselves. Also, no one tells us when or where we can work and for how much. I work where I want, when I want, and I set the price. I'm glad you're happy being a union member, but I am just as happy being my own boss.
*.... wading into the fray.... since leaving the UBCJA I figure I've made $1/4 million less than if I had worked full-time with the union... the key is, though, I would have had to move to a big city and work all commercial, mostly formwork. My goal when I started my business was to make union wages again within 5 years, it's been 6 years now and I'm still hoping. I try and pay my guys as best I can without going broke in the process, and have found that an unofficial profit-sharing in the form of year end bonuses is the way to go. All in all, though, I think we owe the unions our gratitude for recognizing that all our hard work and skill is worth more than poverty-level wages. Think about it: $26 / hr. is only $52,000 / yr IF you work full time, all year.... that, in my books, is how much money it takes to raise a family and save a bit for retirement. Don't knock the middle class, there's a lot of obscenely rich folks out there making well over $100,000 / yr. who, in my humble opinion, aren't near as smart and hard working as us carpenters! Don't base your pay rates at what it takes to compete with the unethical and underground, stand up proud and ask for what you're really worth. You'll get less jobs, but the ones you get will be worth doing with a smile!
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I'm new to this site, and I think it's a good thing. My question is this: How much is a fair hourly wage where you are?
We are carpentry sub-contractors in Dallas. All our employees are W2 and on the books. I can only charge my customers so much and so I can only pay so much. As non-union carpenters we are limited by what some less than honest sub-contracting companies pay the people they hire. I can't hire a man as a sub when he is really my employee. I know I can pay him more of the share without the employee over-head, but it ain't legal.
Just curious what you pay, and what tools you expect a top notch man to have.