Water entered concrete sill of sliding door
Hello everyone,
I’m hoping you can help me solve a odour/smell problem since water entered into the concrete sill of my slidiing door. There were cracks in the exterior concrete sill of my sliding door. I fixed the cracks last October by using sealant and parrging on the concrete door sill. However, with all the rain we had last summer, the wood inside the sill, I know was wet for sometime before I saw this.
I tried running a heater most of the fall and winter, to dry it out, after parrging, and also used a syringe of Javex to squeeze inside the sill (very small gaps between vinyl and inside ledge of door). The smell is back now that it is getting warmer again. It is in the finished part of my basement and there is carpeting and baseboards as well.
I was thinking of drilling holes underneath the door sill, from the inside of my house to see what is going on in there, but not sure this is the best solution? There is no drywall underneat that part of the door ledge. It is actually solid wood and all the drywall, ledge and wood surrounding it are all intact (not soft) with no visible water damage..
Do you have any suggestions on how to get rid of the smell without having to remove the entire door?
Please let me know and thank you for your help.
Rhonda
Replies
Rhonda,
Could you take a couple pictures of this are, both closeup and standing back so we can get a better idea of the situation?
Is there any drop from the door down to a patio?
You mentioned a concrete sill that you patched, and made mention of solid wood under that door. Need to clarify that. If wood under, does any of that show on the outside.
Is there any way water is getting in along the top/sides of the door and working it's way down, wetting the carpet or at least the concrete under it?
You say no sight of water damage. Have you removed trim, pulled back carpet etc to know that there's nothing hidden?
A mildew smell suggest moisture-moreso now that things have thawed out (if you are in a cold climate)............heck, dallas might be considered a cold climate after this winter.
thanks.
Yeah, if you could make a rough sketch of the cross-section of the sill area, scan it or take a photo of it and post that, that would greatly improve understanding. Otherwise, if you could construct a careful verbal description, starting from the outside and working in, describing each item in the structure, that would work too.
Basically, "concrete sill" could mean many things, and without a clearer understanding we're kind of working in the dark.
Telling us where you live would help too, so we know what climate you're dealing with.
Hi everyone,
I live in Ottawa, Canada, it is very cold here for the winter and was back in October when I parged the door sill outside.
There is a walk out patio, almost the same level as the inside of my home. As seen from the pictures I attached, the wood is on the base of the sliding door, and also behind the trim. I know this becuase I initially tried dirlling a small hole, thinking it was drywall, directly underneath the sliding door, but instead, it turned out to be wood..
I've pressed/inspected all the wood around the inside of house, surrounding the door and it seems intact. Let me know whaty ou think and if you have any other questions.
No, I did not take off the baseboard, but I did just removed alittle of the carpget from underneath it and it seems ok. it was only a little bit, that I checked/pulled out. Perhaps I need to remove the entire baseboard to properly see?
Also, you'll notice the plastic on the outside I put there to protect it and cure better, when it was colde and keep snow/rain after I had parrged.
Anyway, let me know and thank you again.
Rhonda
What is under the carpets, wood or concrete?
Rhonda, thanks for the interior shots. That helps get an idea of what you have to deal with.
Could you get a couple outside? Maybe some close of the threshold, what you parged and even some shots of the whole door system-straight on and from the side.
Thanks.
I will provde some pics of the outside, and close up and full views of the door and parrging I did tomorrow AM.
Under the carpet is padding, then concrete.
So this is a slab structure, and the water is either wicking up through cracks in the slab or blowing through the joint between the slab and the base of the wall? (Or possibly leaking through the joints between siding and door frame.) What did you parge that would have had anything to do with the issue?
On looking at the pictures more closely, it appears that the floor inside is actually lower than the surface outside (hence the need to elevate the door sill). This isn't a good situation even in the best of circumstances.
Hi there,
Here are the pics, as promised.
Rhonda
I see this sits under a deck. How much protection does this afford?
B/4 you laid the patio, was any attention paid to waterproofing the sill and surrounding masonry that would now become under the new grade of the patio?
When the door was installed, was it done in a proper manner? I see a pretty wide caulk joint around the perimeter of the door trim.
The ledger with hangers of the deck above is fastened tight to the brick. How was that detailed. Any way for water to get in up above and work it's way down?
What is grade like around that end of the house?
You've got a grade-A, certified, jackleg mess.
The surface outside is higher than inside, so whoever did this elevated the sill and built that little stoop outside. This may have been done in response to problems with standing water outside, either late in construction or after the place was built. It's vaguely possible that the change was made as a code requirement of some sort, since the potential for flooding is obvious.
It appears (you missed getting a picture that shows it clearly) that the foundation comes up the outside wall about a foot or 18", and similarly is visible (or poorly concealed) on the inside of the wall. But the opening for the door was originally cut to be flush with the finished floor, so, to facilitate the raised sill, it was filled in below with lumber and then a sort of stoop poured against the wood.
You should be happy that it works as well as it does, given all of this.
The right way to fix it is to remove the door, remove the lumber below the door, drill rods into the foundation below and on the sides, then pour concrete in the opening. After the concrete is set the foundation outside should be excavated a foot or so down and the area should be waterproofed. A replacement stoop can either be poured when you pour the concrete or a wood replacement can be built after the concrete is in place.
A less satisfactory (but cheaper) fix would be to remove the stoop and just waterproof what's there, using rubber membrane. In either case the stoop has got to be removed before work can be done.
Hi again,
I actually only bougth this house 5 years ago, it is a 14 year old home. I was not here to see all the detailing of the installation of the door, patio, deck etc as it was already here.
The grade of the patio stones near the door slant down and away from the door which is good. I also caulked the wooden joint closest to the brick wall on the deck, so as to prevent water from coming in or near the sliding door below. I only just did that this past summer and am happy I have not seen any water coming down the side of the home, along the door since. I think I did see that in previous winters, where the snow etc would melt onto it directly. That part of the sill has not been wet much at all except for when it rained hard here back in January.
The caulking job was initialy done by a friend 5 years ago and had I seen the job, I would have asked for better but I was not there at the time it was done. I does prevent water from getting into the sides/top of the door frame, but it is not esthetically nice looking.
What are your thoughts about drilling some holese on the inside of my wall, and spraying the Javex in there to get rid of the smell? Or are you thinking there is water coming in still from somewhere else? To me, those cracks were so big, that was my biggest problem there.
Please let me know and thanks as always, for your help.
Rhonda
Rhonda,
What is your location?
Eventho your pictures add quite a bit to the discussion, I am at a loss as to ........
1. the smell? Changes in the humidity, temperature etc can mask, limit or bring them out. You may have solved the water intrusion but the cause of the smell may come back as both the indoor and outdoor climate changes.
or, because of air movement by convection or forced air blowing around, you may think the smell is at the door when it's actually originating from some other area of the basement.
2. If there is still water entering the basement-where is the source. To really come to a conclusion on where to start and what to do............there's not enough there to pin point what methods I would take. There's just too many "possibilities". So for me it'd almost take an visual inspection or maybe me pointing the camera.
If there I would certainly be crawling around the inside, looking hard for a small crack or paint bubble down low caused by moisture . Base off to see if mold is behind. Bottom of carpet turned to look for the same thing.
Once I found the problem that might be causing the stink, then I'd go out and way back from the house, deck and get a look at how rain/snow is going to hit the house/surrounding ground and be channeled away. I've seen moisture enter from the slider above another one, work it's way down both sides ot the lower behind siding/brick and then do it's collection at the corners on the first floor.
Once you find the problem-the real problem is finding the source.
I think it might take more that more pictures but I'm game if you are.
DanH said:
>>>On looking at
DanH said:
>>>On looking at the pictures more closely, it appears that the floor inside is actually lower than the surface outside
Is this true? It may be a factor. However, you mentioned that the grade does slope away from the house, which is very important and a good thing.
When it rains hard, do you see water pooling anywhere around this entry? Or do you see water running down the wall from the deck above?
Same thing when Springtime snow melts, any pooling?
Hi again,
Here are a few more pieces of info regarding my door and my property, in general.
My house was built on a fairly sloped hill, hence the walk out basement. In fact, if I would guess I would say it is probably 30 degrees or more steep. Also, my backyard continues also down a sloped hill. I was told by insurance that flooding in my home would be very rare considering the propertly line, slopes etc.
Also, the patio, right outside the walkout-basment sliding door, is farily well angled too, probably about 4 inches higher close to the door, as it approaches my lawn.
Further to this, there is a green, rubbery or plastic along the outside of the sill, basically I can see it between the patio stones and the sill directly. It is very thick, cannot be moved/shifter easily and certainly cannot be pulled out ( I tried because I didn't know what it was at first). I later found oiut, it could be a waterproof membrane, though I expected it to be black like what I see around the rest of my house, under the ground.
Let me know if this helps my situation. :-)
Thanks again, as always.
Rhonda
Rhonda,
The caulk around the door should not be relied on to "SEAL" the door to the weather. While it could be a part of the treatment, there should be no direct route around the door (top/sides/bottom) for water to enter. A globbed up caulk job with less than the optimum caulk for adhesion to wood,metal or masonry has a tendancy to harden over time and crack/separate from what it should be stuck to. Close examination of that should be a first look. And look very closely.
What side of the house is this? N,S,E,or W?
Is it the side of prevailing weather?
Is the house all brick? Please, a shot of that whole side of the house?
Sloped downhill is good for drainage, but also could be place for collection. There is uphill above the house, yes? A good swail above the house to direct uphill water around will help emensely.
thanks.
Heck, while you're out there, take one of this green plastic stuff too.
Hi there,
I will take pictures for you tonight of the outside of the door etc. Hopefully it will shed more light and the situation.
Cheers,
Rhonda
Uh, if you're taking the pictures at night it's not going to shed much light on things.
Oh and I can answer a few more questions for you while I have the chance.
This side of the house is West.
Typically there is very little snow or rain that lands on or near that side of the wall/door area. Same goes for the door way on the deck above. Also, that entire West side of the house is all made of brick, from floor to roof.
Rhonda
Hi there,
Yes, I meant after coming home from work, all these pics are stil in the late afternoon, while sun is still up. :-)
I took a close look on the caulk all around the door and all of it is tightly fit to the brick, andsill around, no cracks seen anywhere. I'm happy to know that. Also, I was recalling a conversation with a Home Depot rep telling me about an L shaped metal sheet I can place on the door sill, after parrging it. I'm thinking in case I need to, I can always place that along the ledge to prevent any future water from enteering.. No other water is getting near that sill, as you can see from the pics. All the water on the patio is caused from all the snow melting from the deck above.
Notice also all the green rubbery material about 1/2 inch above the patio floor, but not up flush against the door sill. Also, I checked the entire parrged ledge, and the walls around the door and even the caulk and all of it is coimletely dry. It also has not rained here in many days but it plans to rain the next 3 days. I can also take a look then on how rain comes down on the door.
Also, there was a previous question asking if water ever pooled on the patio below. No, I've never seen water pool there for the last 5 year I've lived here. It is angled down towards the backyard.
Let me know what you think.
Thanks,
Rhonda
Those photos pretty much confirm that the outside ground level is 4-6 inches higher than the inside floor. I'm guessing that this was discovered too late to change the grading on the outside, so the builder "fixed" it by elevating the door.
It's unclear from your description whether the concrete door sill runs all the way under the door, or whether there's wood under the door. But in either case, the patch is insufficient to hold back water from working its way through the foundation (if indeed there even is "foundation" directly under the door).
In my opinion the "right" fix is to remove the door, remove whatever's passing for a sill there, and pour a new one, pinned to the opening and well-sealed on the outside. But you could probably improve things somewhat by digging up the outside to a depth of a foot or 18 inches, going 18-24 inches beyond the door on each side, and installing a robust waterproof membrane.
Rhonda,
I'm at a loss to come up with any new idea. If the ledger for the deck above is not detailed properly, water could get behind the brick and work it's way down.
Water can enter the bottom corners of the jamb and get under the threshold.
And as dan mentions, a cobbled up job under the door could certainly allow moisture to be wicked in. All that masonry and sand base holds moisture for quite a while.
Was there a concrete patio under the pavers?
slide door entrance
You did the parging so I assume you want to do the work yourself. One way that you can get the water away from the area would be to dig a trench that grades away, if possible. Fill the trench with small gravel for fast drainage, and try setting the pavers on top. If the pavers shift, then you may have to replace the pavers above the gravel with heavier and larger concrete blocks for best footing.
Also, the slide door looks old. The rain that hits the doors may be falling on the track and leaking through the frame joints. Try dripping some water over the corner joints and see if water drains to outside or wicking into the joint. For short term fix, you could try forcing some caulk into this joint.
If the area dries out, the smell should go away. The moldy smell could be coming from anywhere along that wall, not just from the area under the door. Any repair that you or professional can do from outside will not help. If you suspect the smell comes from just that area, the wood under the door will have to be removed, because wood in contact with concrete will pick up moisture with or without the leak.
One way you can find out the condition of structure underneath would be to make a hole (with a hole saw) into the finish sill. It can be patched with the resulting plug. This could disturb the water proofing, if existing, underneath, but I doubt if anything would be under there. At least you may be able to see if wood is wet or dry.
By the way, the smell may be from carpet pad and the carpet.
Just getting the outside grade below the indoor floor level should help a lot. If this is not possible, a diy trench that channels the water away from the foundation should help.
Hope it helps.
Hi everyone,
Ok, so this is not good then. I've become fairly handy since owning my home 5 years ago, but honestly think this is a big job for me and I'm a perfectionist and want to be sure it is done right. Never used concrete before, just grout etc for tiling.
So I want to be clear I understand the problem here and the steps to the solution:
First here is a list of the major problems I've learned from you all:
1) the ground is higher then the basement floor, and that should have never been that way from the time of construction
2) the concrete sill should have be solid concrete, when poured, not hollow, like it is now? I'm certain it is hollow since cracks I filled were very large, I could put my finger through them, and as a result, the water came in
3) We are not certain I even have a waterproof membrane in or near the sill, and that parrged sill will always wick water into and underneath the door
4) the parrging done on the door sill, will still not prevent water from coming in underneath the sill. I can smell wood underneath there and only in that area, so I'm guessing that smell will never go away if the rot wood is in there and the sill continues to provide moisture to it
Now here are a few questions to the solution of this:
1) I would need to remove the door, and all the rot wood from underneath it . Can I still reuse my door or do I need to buy a new one? It is only the age of the home, 15 years.
2) When they repour the concrete for the sill, they first need to dig from the outside of the home 1 to 1.5 feet deep, before pouring concrete and they would need rebar to connect the sill to the base of the foundation wall? Can they access the foundation wall, when only digging that deep? Am I understanding this step correctly?
3) There should be two waterproof membranes, one on the outside of the home, I will assume from the outside edge of the sill, and another inside the door sill as well? Is this correct? What was that green stuff I took pictures of? Was that supposed to be a waterprof membrane?
4) Also, if I do not fix this problem I know the smell would never go away but I am wondering if that sill would shift etc over time, if it is hollow like it is and also cause more problems with my foundation?
Please let me know if there is anything else I need to know regarding this. I think this will be a big job, as I've never done this before and want to be sure, who I hire, knows what they are doing and talking about. I need to too :-)
Also, could this be done by a window/door specialist or do I need a contractor?
Thanks again for all your help, this is a pain, but it needs to be fixed!
Rhonda
Rhonda,
Take this situation and simplify it just a little bit. You need to know exactly what you are dealing with. Find out what's under the door, whether from inside or out. Devise a plan-reusing the door is certainly a good possibility. If there are no rotten frame members in the door itself, you should be able to pull it, do your repair and waterproofing and then re-install. A temporary security wall can close in the area until you're ready to put the door back in.
Also, a patio with downspout extensions running across it seems like something you can correct in this project at the same time.
Where is this house located? Don't need the street address but there's a possibility that there might be someone reading this from your area. Then hopefully they would be qualified enough and honest enough to advise you in this matter.
It should be possible to reuse the door if it's not damaged in removal (mostly just a matter of being careful) and it's not developed rot in the lower jambs. However, it might be possible to do the work without removing the door. (But you might also want to consider upgrading the door at the same time, if it's a cheap contractor model.)
Probably the situation is that below the door is a door opening that was formed assuming the ground was properly sloped. The bottom of that opening should be the foundation and/or the concrete floor slab. You presumably don't need a stoop, so it's only necessary to build up that opening, for the thickness of the foundation. Excavation should only be required to about 6" below the inside floor level (though when it comes time to waterproof the area it would be wise to go 10-12" deep).
It will also be necessary to remove the trim and possibly some drywall on either side of the door opening on the inside, to facilitate installing/anchoring the forms. You'll liikely have some drywall repair and painting to do afterwards.
Pieces of rebar should be inserted into the sides and bottom of the opening, to "key" the new concrete to the old. At least one on each side and three in the bottom. It wouldn't hurt to run 2-3 pieces of rebar across the width of the opening as well.
The outside should be suitably waterproofed after the concete is poured. This could be either a painted on rubber-like material, or rubber-like material in self-stick sheets. This should come to 2-3l inches above the finished "ground" level (the top of the pavers). A piece of foam insulation or something similar should then be installed over the waterproofing to protect it from cuts from rocks, etc. No waterproofing would be necessary or advised on the inside.
If you don't fix this the smell won't go away, the wood under the door will rot, the lower door jambs will develop rot, and the carpet will be ruined. Failing to fix it shouldn't cause any serious structural problems, though.
Hi everyone,
I just took off the trim and did find water damage behind it and on the wall. The walls, underneath the sliding door is made of wood, right up until it meets the corner of the other wall, as you will see from the pics. Also, you can see more significant damage to the corner where the walls meet, rather than directly under the door. That could also be because the downspout is nearby, right at the corner of my house and only when I moved it, did I place a 10 foot extension to it. Before that, the water was probably lingering and sinking into my patio stones and the area near the door sill getting in from there.
I also drilled two holes in the wall, one near the corner where the two walls meet and another direclty underneath the door. I stopped just in time to not cut through the vapour barrier but it turns out, that whole part of the sill is then hollow with insulation (the yellow kind) and vapour barrier. It was a challenge taking off that trim without breaking it in pieces but am happy I know more of what I am dealing with.
It looks like I will not only have to remove the door but also replace the wall near the door as well. Probably on both sides if it, if necessary. Many of the nails on the right hand side, near the corner of those two walls were rusted, a sign of water creeping in for awhile. :-(
I will be removing the wall in April/May when I exavate the ground for the 1.5 to 2 foot trench beside the wall of my home and run weeping tile as an L shape back and out to the backyard. I will be calling a foundation contractor tomorrow to see if he can come by and see what is going on and provide an estimate, though not sure he can start work yet as it is still cold here and the ground could still be frozen.
Checkout the pics and let me know what you think.
Rhonda
OK, a previous post had implied to me that you had concrete on either side of the door coming up several inches. Apparently my understanding of what you said was wrong. What you have is a bad situation -- a stud wall below grade level. This IS a structural issue.
The entire length of the wall will have to be excavated down to a foot or 18 inches below the inside floor. Then either the bottom of the wall cut away and replaced with concrete, or the wall rebuilt to "wood foundation" standards. (Or the grade of the lot could be changed so that the outside soil is at least 2" (preferably 6) below the inside floor surface.)
A lawsuit against the builder may be in order, assuming he was the one who graded things like this.
[Looking at the pictures again, I see it's brick veneer, meaning that there is some sort of a concrete stub wall (at least 3-4 inches thick) on the outside to support the brick. If this is the case then reset what I said above and go back to the original.]
Significant Water Damage?
Rhonda,
I don't see the "significant" damage. Was the back of the basebd rotten? Nails rusty? Drywall wet?
If there was a good bit of water-I would expect the drywall to be decomposed, especially with the removal of the trim.
The only way to get an idea is to remove drywall. If you're unsure of the amount of damage/water intrusion-cut the drywall just below where the basebd will cover when replaced. If you want a real look, go up a couple foot or so (whatever dimension means buying only one sheet of drywall ((up to 4' high if 4' from door to corners)). The higher you go, the easier it will be to patch in and better looksee you'll get.
Original seam in drywall may be 4' down from ceiling.
Hi again,
I was thinking of contacting the city to find out if this passed original inspection of the home. It does not seem to be to code, based on what I'm understanding from you. Especially if water got in, due to the ground being higher than the floor in my basement.
True, the water is not significant, none of my walls, trim or even carpet are wet or even black, from mold. There was alittle white mold on the inside of the trim, where it was closest to that corner of where the two walls meet. I just cleaned that up with some water and chlorine and its now smelling fine and clean.
To be clear, all the pics I just attached are of wood, ply wood to be exact. There is no drywall there in the holes I drilled, or where the water damage appears.. There is just the plywood sheet (wall), then vapour barrier, then the yellow insulation.
Does this mean, the damage is not that bad and I would only need to redo the sill, or do I need to still remove the door, and replace the sill? I plan to execavate my yard, just the same later in the Spring, to digthe trench, add the weeping tile etc. This will not change either way.
Is this still bad how they filled in the hollow part of the door sill with insulation, vapour barrier etc?
Rhonda
Plywood?
That interior wall finish on either side of the door is plywood?
Yes, underneath the door and all the wall to the right hand side is plywood.
Well, that makes it tougher.
I would still try this b/4 stripping the wall of plywood. What's under the door will be easy to remove. Since it's not gone yet I would not panic. Remove the pc under the door. What do you see?
If you have to remove wall ply-you might not have to remove it all.
For a looksee, you can cut a straight line just below where the basebd will cover. Score the plywood with a knife so it doesn't splinter all to hell while cutting.
Set a circ. saw to the proper depth-lay a bd of proper thickness on the floor to guide the shoe of the saw at the proper cut line.
OR,
strike a line up a ways on the wall-Height to be determined by you deciding where a nice chair rail would go to cover the seam when you replace the plywood. Score and cut and remove. Do your work, replace with same ply if you can salvage.
That's all I got, too much sports on tv today, my eyes are burning.........the couch is calling.
Tricky!
I will try and make some time this week, after work and see how I can remove some of that plywwod to look behind.
What am I looking for, just see how bad the damage is and the door sill as well as the side wall, near the corner?
I'll keep you posted and thanks everyone for your help.
Rhonda
Rhonda
I would try to open up under the door ONLY first.
See what is behind that plywood.
And please, when replying to a specific person/specific post (like this one).
Hit the reply button below that specific post.
Otherwise, anyone of us won't get a notice of your reply. You will get the notice (if you have that feature checked in your profile.
I will remove wood underneath door first
Ok, I will try and see if I can remove that tonight. I find using a circular saw there will be difficult for me, so I might just use my drill to make holes vertically. I also see a seem and will pry open from there.
I'll keep you posted what I find out.
Also, how do we know I do not already have a weeping tile and waterproofing on the foundation wall? It could be that the water is just entering from the top of the sill only, and not underneath? Is there an easy way to find this out, without having to dig the trench?
Ok, keep you posted and thank you very much for you help, Calvin!
Rhonda
Probe
Rhonda,
There is a t-shaped long probe made to force into the ground to test for buried objects such as footing, hard tile, buried treasure chests.
About 4' long, the "T" forms the handle. You push/wiggle/rock it into the ground. It will stop when it hits something harder than dirt-rock, hard tile, footer. By drawing out and reinserting you can get a "feel" for what is there-(what type of material)
However, thin walled flexible drainage pipe might puncture-fooling you in thinking nothing is there.
Not foolproof in your case-but with gentle probing-might work w/o poking a hole in it.
You go around the area once you find the first obstruction, reprobing till you find the edge.
The good probes have a small "bulb" end. This eliminates the suction when you push in/pull out the probe. A smooth straight rod sticks when trying to withdraw.
But if the soil's not too rocky a straightened coat hanger will work for a probe. Plaastic tile you'll notice if you have a sensitive hand, since it will have some "give".
Two more pics to add of inside of door!
Here they are: