Recently purchased a house with a well and a water softener (salt). Water is hard, lots of iron, and a tiny bit “pondy” tasting.
When I traced the water lines around my basement I realized that he water softener is only treating the hot water.
The water tastes better coming out of the hot water tap….but who wants to drink hot water?!? I also want to soften ALL water going to dishwasher, clothes washer, shower, etc…
Is this a usual setup? Why would they have done it that way? Should I have any concerns about re-piping to feed ALL water throught the softener?
Thanks for any feedback.
Edited 8/26/2002 10:36:31 AM ET by Stray
Replies
I ain't no plumber, but have a thought or two.
Doing the whole house will mean your water softener will have to work harder, and go through more salt. It will last longer and use less stuff if you don't run everything through it.
If you want better tasting water, you might try an under sink water filter connected to a 3rd faucet in the extra sink cutout. (Where the spray nozzle goes, if you have one) Then just use the 3rd faucet for drinking and cooking water.
Or maybe run a line from the output side of the softener (before the water heater) to the faucet you drink out of the most.
Seems like either of those options would be better than treating the whole house.
You know "that look" women get when they want sex?
Me neither.
Acutally you need to look at what you want to use the software for.
A lot of clothes washing and/or rinsing is done with warm or cold water. Likewise unless WH is turned down you are mixing cold water with the hot in the shower. So in all of these cases you are mixing a lot of hard water in with the treated water and losing the benifits.
Now you don't want to use treated water for the outside spigots. And you don't need it for the toliets (unless you have a problem with cleaning hard water deposits on the stools).
And BOSS is right just for "drinking" water it you can run a separate filter system. In fact a lot of people do that that have softened water because of the concern with the added sodium in the water.
Don't know if you have the room and access to run all those different systems. But any place that you do washing/cleaning should use the softened water.
It is a usual set-up. The idea behind the setup that you have is to protect the water heater. Good idea. The problem is that some poorly operating water softeners, regenerated with salt, would sometimes carry over a fair amount of salt in the water. So, not wanting salt in cooking or drinking water (or being extermely cheap), softened only the supply to the water heater.
You will have no problems softening all the water in the house. It is highly recommended. I would separate outside water spigots from the softened water, depending on how much you water.
The swampy taste on the other hand, needs to be treated in a separate way. You can filter the water in a gravity type filter, like Britta. Or use and under the sink type of filter for drinking water.
If you are really interested in your water, get a sample tested. AAA Environmental will do a fairly complete, basic test for $100.
Thanks for all the input.
I definitely want to soften most of the water (for benefits of clothes washing, etc...). Agreed that the hose bib should be taken off before the softener (won't be hard to do).
I am looking into an undersink filter or a whole house filter for "pondiness" factor. There are whole house units that run $30, with 2 micron filtration and a carbon liner. The filters are about $8/ea and need replacing every 3 months or so. About a 5gpm flow rate (when new). Anyone have experience with this kind of thing? Is it even close to a Brita in terms of water taste?
Seems a small price to pay for better water/convenience, I'm just leery of it's effectiveness
Softening all but the hose bibs is a good way to go.
The Britta filter is not the same as the carbon filter. They work in different ways. I have a cyclonic sand filter and a cartridge filter on my water supply (private well), but have never used the carbon cartridges. The carbon filter should remove most odor causing compounds that are not dissolved minerals. Check out plumbingsupply.com , they have whole house cartridge filters and all sorts of cartridges. I would recommend that you go with the 10 gpm unit (1" NPT connections) if you are going to filter the entire supply.
If your well is set improperly, like mine which is too deep for the water level, or not propely sleeved, (or just the way it is), you might be getting sediment or sand in the system, as well. I used to get a great deal of sand/silt in the system during heavy water use, like watering the yard and gardens for hours or filling the spa (350 gallons). The sand and silt would overwhelm the cartridge. The sand and silt gets into the pressure tank and the piping. Then, when the soft water is used, its gets in to the softener and piping. Silt can add a lot to the swampy/pondy quality.
I would still recommend a water analysis to know whats in it for sure. Once you know exactly what is in your water (it will change to some degree, constantly) then you can find the best water treatment options. You can also identify anything that needs special attention.
Edited 8/28/2002 8:37:34 AM ET by Tim
Thats' great info re softener setups. I think I'll get the water tested (perhaps 2, one "softened" sample and one straigt from well) and see where I go from here.
I think I'll switch the softener to the whole supply, as I don't see any downside to that.
Interesting about the different irons, and fixes for each. Will have to find out what my iron problem really is first. Definitely have stained fixtures; and DW isn't too impressed with that...
Thanks all.
Stray,
We’ve got a similar sounding situation at our house. Below is a post that I put up on a different forum, but I think you might find it enlightening and helpful.
Our well water contains approx. 5 parts per million of iron and also contains iron bacteria/algae. Iron bacteria are found in water containing iron and are anaerobic by nature. While iron bacteria is considered to be harmless as far as human consumption is concerned, it can make a mess of your toilet tank, supply lines and the like. I don’t think I need to tell you what iron in water alone, does to your tub, sinks, and dishes, not to mention the flavor of the water. Iron that is suspension in the water is known as ferrous iron. There are water softeners available that claim they are capable of handling up to 10 parts per million of ferrous iron, but I believe from experience that 5 parts per million is closer to the truth. If you choose to use one of these, be prepared to use a product known as Iron Out, or its equivalent, to help cleanse the softener media.
While these iron-handling softeners can do a pretty fair job of handling ferrous iron, they are no match for a complete system, especially if you also have iron bacteria present in your water supply. A complete system would include a method of introducing oxygen into the well water. This would be done for two purposes: 1- It kills iron bacteria and 2- It causes much of the ferrous iron to transform into ferric iron. Ferric iron is iron in the precipitate form. In other words, it turns into something akin to a sand-like substance. Much, but not all, of it will then precipitate out of the water in the well casing rather than being delivered into the water system. In my opinion, the most practical way to introduce this oxygen into a private well system is by chlorinating. While there are various ways of introducing chlorine in the well, for our climate, we chose to use a chlorine pellet dropping mechanism, which sits atop our well casing and drops the pellets into the well at the required rate, which is adjustable on these units. These units, as well as the chlorine pellets, are available from your local plumbing supply house. You need to have your water tested for its iron content which the folks at said local plumbing supply should be more than happy to do for you at no charge. This will help you determine which pellet dropping unit to install as each model has limits to its adjustment.
If you decide to chlorinate, or if it is essential that you do to control the iron, bear in mind that your ferrous iron handling softener medium is now in jeopardy as it is not capable of handling ferric iron without eventually slugging full of the stuff, even with the addition of Iron Out. Ferric iron does not readily clean out of the softener medium during normal regeneration. You must now install a device in front of your softener to remove the ferric iron. These fall into the category of sand filters. There are green sand filters available that require the use of potassium permanganate to regenerate, but my experience has been that they are frequently trouble. Hence, we installed a simple sand filter filled with what is known as filter sand, and it does an excellent job for us. It simply backwashes as required on a schedule that you set on its day clock to remove the captured ferric iron. Be certain that its scheduled time is not concurrent with your softeners regeneration schedule. Eventually, perhaps in several years, you may need to replace the filter sand, but the sand isn’t expensive. To renew ours is approx. $15.00.
If you chlorinate just for iron and/or iron bacteria, you needn’t chlorinate to the degree that many municipal water departments do. You can gain control of excess iron and iron bacteria at lower rates than they use. Unless we tell people that we chlorinate, no one knows, and yet we no longer have an iron or iron bacteria problem. Our water taste great, our whites come out white, and we have no staining on our fixtures. I also installed a granulated charcoal filter on the drinking faucet line which leaves our water with a clean pure taste.
There’s more to know about keeping that sand filter and softener running well if installed in conjunction that I can share with you. Post back if you’d like to know and leave your e-mail address. Hope this helps. Good luck.
As I read many of the discussions related to iron in the water, I can see some common threads. First, it is best to remove iron by introducing oxygen to convert it to ferric iron which can be filtered. It seems a chlorinator is the most preferred way. Also, most people seem to agree simple sand filters with some sort of backwashing system seems to work to remove the ferric iron. By removing the iron, I should remove the iron bacteria which should get rid of the staining problem. This helps me set a direction to solve this issue.
Secondly, however, I have a rotten egg smell which I understand is caused by hydrogen sulfide. I have been told that hydrogen sulfide is created by a reaction between iron and something else that I don't currently recall. Following this reasoning, I would take care of the smell problem also by removing the iron. My question is whether this is accurate or not. If this is not correct, how best to deal with the smell problem?
As an additional note, I also understood that the hydrogen sulfide is responsible for pitting (more like minor blemishes) of fixtures. Any truth to this?
Yes, there is truth to that pitting question..... I think. I haven't run any lab tests on it myself natuarally, but I've seen this discussed and mentioned numerous times.
I'd also add that the most common source of that hydrogen sulfide gas is that it is frequently created by sulfide-reducing bacteria in the water. The warmer temps of the water heater favor growth of these bacteria and so usually the hot water contains a bit or sometimes alot more odor than the cold water does.
If you install a chlorinator to deal with the iron situation, those bacteria will be toast as a result of that. These could also be erradicated via the use of an ultraviolet unit, but that unit alone wouldn't help with the iron issues.
If you go the chlorinator and sand filter route, I'd recommend also installing a simple activated charcoal filter unit (replacable cartridge type for around $30) on the drinking/cooking water line to remove any residual chlorine or other taste issues. Change that cartridge every four months whether it "needs it" or not.
Again, when I recommend a sand-filter after the chlorinator, I'm not recommending a green-sand filter nor should you install one in conjunction with a chlorinator. Green sand filters are for dealing with iron issues without installing a chlorinator, but in my experiences are usually troublesome units. Chlorinators help deal with multiple issues at once, not the least of which is a vast reduction in any potential arsenic content when used in conjuncction with a sand filter so long as the water contains some iron which yours evidently does.
The automatic backwashing filter unit should likely be one using/containing filter sand or birm or filter ag.......depending upon your particular water contents. The filter sand would likely work well for you, but if there are other contaminants or "issues" one of those other media might be superior. Might. Depends.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Thanks so much for your reply. This helps tie a lot of loose ends up before we proceed with a fix. Overall, our water is pretty good. We had an outside lab perform a test and they didn't find much other than a lot of iron.
When it comes to the filters, I have heard people talking about birm but not sure what it is or when it is suitable. Never heard of filter ag. Any further insight on these options versus plain old sand filters?
Thanks again for the help.
Check here for more info on these various medias.
http://www.apswater.com/page120.html
You'll notice that filter sand isn't even listed under iron removal, but it works just fine for that. Many municipal water departments use filter sand beds for precipitate iron removal. It's also very good at removing turbidity as are some of the other media.
Note that the effectiveness of some of these media is dependent on the Ph of your water.
Also, bear in mind that a water treatment filter system requires that the media is either cleaned when necessary and /or replaced. (I use a very dilute muriatic acid solution to do this, but you may have no call to do this depending upon the acidity of your water supply) I haven't had need to replace ours in 8 years or so. And filter sand is cheap material to purchase. Around $15 currently for the average sized residential unit. Only time will tell how often cleaning or replacement of the media will be necessary with your water supply. If you're lucky, it'll perform flawlessly for years with no intervention on your part at all.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
I got a BIRM filter from this company. They were very responsive, knowledgable, and helpful. Did the trick for me.
http://www.bizatomic.com/sites/ohiopurewaterco/catalog.php?action=110&cat_id=43
You need to hold on to the water test results, and send them to the company you decide to deal with, as there are several factors involved in deciding on the right system.
Depending on the age of your house, you may have lead pipes, which can leech lead into your drinking/cooking water (there may also be lead or other undesirable heavy metals in your ground water). I would suggest you look into testing for this as it may impact a filtering decision you make (especially if you have children in the house). I do not claim to know any technical details about heavy metal content/testing, or remediation thereof, but it might be better to think about it now rather than after you spend time and money.