Looking for a water softener that does not use salts. Are there enviromentally friendly?
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Softening water is, in most caases, a chemical process. The easiest way to soften water is with ion exchange resin, which is recharged with salt. It can be recharged with other compounds, none more friendly than salt. The other options are reverse osmosis, lime softening, evaporation/condensation. Of these, RO, is probably the most "green".
What is not "green" about salt?
What's not green about salt??? Your grass if it backwashes on the yard. And what about all that salt water in the septic tank..... Now that can't be good.
If you are backwashing your water softener onto your yard, you are either 1 - not all that bright, 2 - don't really care about your yard or 3 - both.
" And what about all that salt water in the septic tank..... Now that can't be good."
Is this a question or a statement? How much salt is "all that salt"? At what concentration is salt dumped into the septic tank? What harm is a little dilute saline in the septic tank, once or twice a week?
I have people tell me softeners are bad because they put all that salt in your drinking water.
How do you reply to such misinformation?
If it's someone trying to make me look bad I just give them a long look, say "You are a lot more ignoant than I thought", and walk away.
Otherwise I explain it like this. Actually there are 2 tanks involved here. The main one has plastic like pellets in it that take the bad stuff ouut of the water. Eventually they need to be replaced or cleaned. It would cost a fortune to replace them so that is where the salt comes in at. The salt pellets are soaking in a brine solotion all this time. When these pellets need to be cleaned it bypasses your house water and then pumps this brine into the pellet tank, which then cleans the pellets. Then this brine is pumped out as waste and your house water is diverted back through the pellet tank.
This is a simplified version for the average consumer.
Any comments?
I think that is a good description. I would go on to add, that the salt does not go into your water. I am amazed at how many otherwise technically competent individuals believe that softeners work by putting salt in the water.
http://detnews.com/2002/livingston/0206/27/d05l-522921.htm
If a wastewater plant can't deal with it do you really think your septic tank will do better?
and another:
http://www.mdcoastalbays.org/education/what.html
SEPTIC TANK MAINTENANCE
Be good to your septic tank. Septic tanks are a major source of nutrients to the bays. Maintain your septic system by having it pumped every three to five years. Never dump or flush any chemicals, grease, sanitary pads, tampons or disposable diapers down your drain or toilet when you own a septic system. Cover your tank access at all times. A bright green spot on the lawn or strange odor may indicate your septic system is on the blink. Some of us have a direct line to the sewer. Others maintain our own septic systems. Whatever the method, pipes, tanks, drainfields, and other on-site sanitary disposal facilities can all back up or leak into waterways if poorly maintained.
Pump every 3-5 years. Septic tanks that do not get pumped out will fail. You must rid your tank of solids and sludge that naturally build up. If these do not get removed on a regular basis they will get into the drainfield and clog the soil pores just like grease.
Never use septic tank cleaning compounds which impair efficiency and damage the drainfield.
Never flush toxic materials.
Minimize water flow to the septic tank with low flow shower heads and toilet tank inserts.
Don't plant trees or drive on or near your septic field.
Do not dump cooking grease down the drain! Grease can clog septic systems, as well as municipal sewage systems, and interfere with their proper operation.
Know the location of your tank and drainage field. Call your county or local Health Department for a copy of your septic system layout especially before you start any construction.
Don't plant deep rooted trees or bushes over the drainage field. The roots could enter the field and clog the system.
Don't drive or allow heavy vehicles on your septic system.
Don't flush sanitary pads, tampons, paper, cigarettes, or disposable diapers. They do not decompose.
Be on the lookout for signs of septic failure. These include visible drainage, strong odors, and the backing up of drains. Signs of failure are not always obvious.
Don't use a garbage disposal if you are on a septic system. Compost kitchen scrapes or discard in the trash.
Keep a cover on your septic tank access at all times.
Attend a free University of Maryland workshop on Private Well and Septic System management.
Water conditioners should not go to the tank because they kill the bacteria which naturally break down the solids and the backwash is briny which can deteriorate the concrete.
The only advocates of septic dumping are the conditioner people. I'm guessing it's brighter having dead grass then standing knee deep in toilet water flooding the basement because of a $5000.00 useless septic system. But our views on brightness may differ as I hate cutting the grass and you may enjoy septic swimming.
Edited 8/28/2002 9:14:52 PM ET by GEOB21
Edited 8/28/2002 9:18:45 PM ET by GEOB21
Edited 8/28/2002 9:25:03 PM ET by GEOB21
"The only advocates of septic dumping are the conditioner people. I'm guessing it's brighter having dead grass then standing knee deep in toilet water flooding the basement because of a $5000.00 useless septic system. But our views on brightness may differ as I hate cutting the grass and you may enjoy septic swimming."
I read both of the articles you referenced. I disagree. I beleive that the story from Detroit is incomplete and that cessation of water softener backwash will have little affect on the levels of sodium and chlorides in the ground water. Whomever came up with that does not understand much about water. For 31 years, my sodium chloride regenerated softener has discharged in to my septic system, with no adverse effects. I have tested it, and it works fine. Again, I beleive the author of the information to be wrong. You have to understand the concentrations of the effluent and the volume of the system and how they interact. Unless something is wrong with the system, the amount of salt discharged (wasted) is very small and very diluted.
I'll agree with one thing you said. You are guessing.
Hey Tim...If you do a google search on this topic, it's obvious that you are in the minority concerning dumping the backwash into the septic tank. That doesn't mean you can't do it, or that it won't necessarily create any problems........but it is quite clear you are the exception to the rule. Mine dumps into the edge of a landscaped area of my yard.......and that is where it is going to stay.
jocobe
"If you do a google search on this topic, it's obvious that you are in the minority concerning dumping the backwash into the septic tank. That doesn't mean you can't do it, or that it won't necessarily create any problems........but it is quite clear you are the exception to the rule."
I am in the minority frequently, especially when it comes to blindly following conventional "wisdom". I am frequently exceptions to rules as well. Thank you for noticing!
In your Google-ing, did any author put a number to the salinity in the backwash? Did anyone explain that, if the softener is setup properly that the backwash has very little salt in it? Did anyone futher go on to add when added to the volume of a septic tank, what the resulting concentration in the septic tank might be? At what concentration is harm caused to the enzymes and bacteria in the tank? And how that concentration changes over the next day or two?
In the one artcicle published in a Detroit area newspaper that claimed salt from water softeners was contaminating their water is just plain in error. My ground water contains 3.1 parts per million sodium and 10 ppm of chloride, as compared to the 250 ppm limit. Insignificant amounts. I have been backwashing my softener into the septic field, 250 feet away., for years.
I'm skeptical of any technical article or argument that is not based on numbers. I may be wrong, but my experience in this matter indicates otherwise, and no one has provided any credible evidence or information to that end.
Wow.....lighten up dude......I was just doin' my daily cruisin' of Breaktime and took a minute to check this thread. On a subject such as this I really wouldn't spend a whole lot of time other then getting a pro's opinion....in this case I would scan the net for pro & con opinions from professional websites, maybe newsgroups.......or ask my plumber what he thinks..........and in this case I definitely would not let it backflush into my septic tank. Now I know you're special...........but we'll leave that to another thread............... jocobe
Didn't mean to go "off" on this. Just have a peeve about random information being presented as fact with no substantion.
ION EXCHANGE - THE PROCESSThe cation exchange material used most often is polystyrene resin, which takes the form of spheres or beads; they are insoluble in water and have a negative electrical charge. The standard resin bead is less than 1/32 of an inch in diameter, and is the site where the exchange of ions actually occurs. Cation resin beads attract positively charged ions and hold them until the beads encounter some other cations for which they have a greater affinity.In the beginning of the water softening cycle, the resin beads are covered with soft sodium (Na+) ions by washing them in a rich sodium chloride brine solution. These beads are contained in a pressurized vessel called a resin tank. The untreated hard water enters the resin tank and passes through the bed of resin.The negatively charged resin beads have a greater attraction for the two positive charges in each ion of calcium (Ca++) and magnesium (Mg++) than they do for the single positive charge of the sodium (Na+) ion. Therefore, sodium ions on the resin beads will be displaced by the calcium and magnesium ions. In effect, the resin beads exchange the sodium ions for the "hard water" ions, allowing "soft" water to flow from the resin tank.
A softener will continue to give soft water only as long as there are sufficient sodium ions remaining on the resin beads. After a vast number of calcium and magnesium ions from the water have become attached to the resin beads, the exchanger will become exhausted. Before the regeneration cycle begins, the resin bed is backwashed.In backwashing, water is passed through the resin bed in the opposite direction of normal flow, which flushes suspended matter out of the tank, reducing the possibility of fouling the bed. Backwashing also loosens the resin bed which becomes compacted during the softening cycle.In the regeneration process, the resin beads are washed with a strong solution of salt water, known as brine solution. Although the resin beads prefer calcium and magnesium ions, the overwhelming concentration of sodium ions overcomes this affinity. the sodium ions in the brine solution force the calcium and magnesium ions off the beads to be discharged as waste. The resin bed is then rinsed to remove the excess brine solution from the tank, and the resin beads are ready to produce soft water again. The frequency of this regeneration process is determined by the capacity of the softener, the hardness of the water, and the water usage.
SOFT WATER QUALITYThe definition of "soft water" allows for trace elements of hardness (less than one grain per gallon of dissolved calcium and magnesium salts). The quality of the softened water, then, refers to the amount of hardness actually remaining.
The amount of salt used to regenerate the exchange material governs both its hardness removal capacity and the water quality. Generally, a salt dosage of 15 pounds per cubic foot of softening material will fully regenerate the mineral. Lesser salt dosages provide only partial regeneration, leaving some hardness in the mineral bed. As the unit is used, the water softened in the upper part of bed exhibits a regenerating effect on the bed below by displacing the calcium and magnesium ions from the beads. The resulting trace of hardness is called "hardness leakage." Since the residual hardness in the bed increases as the salting level decreases, hardness leakage occurs more readily with low salt dosages.
A brine solution is also very effective at preserving things but there's nothing in the septic tank I wish preserved
California is making it illegal in 2003 and once again, I'm guessing, but you obviously know more then they do.
Feel lucky you have abused your septic for 31 years with out a problem.
Edited 8/29/2002 5:02:21 PM ET by GEOB21
This is about the issue of salt in the softened water, not about flushing into the septic tank.
Yes, the ion exchange resin does release sodium into the softened water, but sodium ions aren't salt until they find some chlorine. Are you saying the resin takes up both sodium and chlorine ions in the recharge cycle and releases them both into the softened water? Isn't it more likely that the chlorine from the salt combines with the calcium and magnesium ions released in the recharge cycle and gets flushed away?
And I'm perfectly willing to believe Tim knows more than the California regulators. How hard could it be?
Edited 8/29/2002 8:30:28 PM ET by Uncle Dunc
I am so sorry this thread has gotten to this point. My original intentions was to question the accepted policy of hard water treatment by backwashing to a septic system.
Then I got called "not so bright"
I don't have a green solution for hardwater and anything besides dumping it down the drain is greener then not.
The brine solution does not go to the drinking water it is used to release the magnesium and calcium from the bed and regenerating it. The majority of salt used in softening water goes down the drain not into the drinking water. Ultimately it all winds up in the septic tank and though a failing septic tank makes the grass very green it's not very green for the environment.
My mistake. Tim was bemoaning the people who think a water softener puts salt in the water and I thought he was talking about you. Sorry.
However it does put sodium in the water.
And for people that are on restricted diets the problem is sodium and salt is only one source of sodium.
http://www.dimewater.com/maxicure.html
http://www.alphausasystems.com/aquafree.htm
http://www.raindancewatersystems.com/Magnetic%20Water%20Systems.html
Here are some links you might be intrested in.
<A
Bill,
Do you know how much sodium a typical softener puts in the water? Honest question, because I don't know.
No, I don't know. but I found this.
"In many areas of the Valley, water hardness is quite acute and water softeners will add several hundred of milligrams per liter of sodium to the water portion of your diet, IN ADDITION TO the naturally occurring sodium which is already present in local tap water."
http://www.aquatechnology.net/frame43251.html
Do a google on "water softener sodium heart" and you will find a number of interesting sites, including the salt instuite.
But a number of those have an agenda and you should go back to the AHA or water quality associations for the basic info.
It appears that more than a few think that because certain info is available on the 'net, it must be reliable, when all the while they are reading advertizing from someone with a product or agenda to sell, or just plain New Age techno-babble. Almost like my old neighbour who claimed what was in The Inquirer was true, because if it wasn't, they wouldn't be allowed to print it.
Just checked the technical data sheet for my softener - if that one can be trusted. I've got very hard water complete with iron, magnesium, manganese etc, so have my regeneration set on "max". Even at that, it uses a little more than one pound of salt and 25 gallons of water per cycle. That would put the salinity of the regen cycle lower than that of seawater before it hits my thousand (Canadian) gallon septic tank.
It would appear that it would be more damaging to the health of my lawn (or septic tank) to pee on it than it would to dump my backwash on it.
Good judgement comes from experience, and a lotta that comes from bad judgement.
Doc
Doc-
Agree. Tried to indicate above that our urine has a tad of the ole sodium in it. Regarding peeing on one's lawn, another factor is lot size. National minimum lot size was determined at the Casblanca in Cambridge in the late 1980's: relieving oneself in the backyard is always a prerequisite, but the ideal lot allows same in the front yard without annoying the neighbors...
Regards,
Rework
"Tim was bemoaning the people who think a water softener puts salt in the water...." Actually, I was questioning why salt is not "green" and got sidetracked.
I have been told that it is bad for your grass (true) and bad for you septic system (debatable) and bad for the ground water (not true), but I have not been told that salt is bad for the environent or why.
Isn't your grass part of the environment?
Yes, it is. But in discussing "green", the concern is the overall effect on the planet (although I love my grass, yards are not considered too eco-friendly) environment.
Salt (NaCl) does not - depelete the ozone, create greenhouse gasses or cause acid rain. It is a naturally occuring non-toxic (If you ingest large quantities, this may not be true) compound that is easily dealt with in all sorts of ways. In small amounts, it is essential to our health. The ocean is full of it.
So my question still is: What's not green about salt?
"I am so sorry this thread has gotten to this point. My
original intentions was to question the accepted policy
of hard water treatment by backwashing to a septic
system.
Then I got called "not so bright"
Actually, George, someone asked a legitimate question and you jumped in with a sarcastic reply.
You are obviously intelligent and have done some digging on the subject. I dissagree with a great deal of the information you presented. But, this is not and never was personal.
What about "All that salt" that gets put into soft water. The body needs some salt - at least the sodium part - to function. It also needs potassium. It sluffs off both during the day through perspiration/ urine/bowel movements. As I see it, those of us blest w/ hypertension are asked to not eat "Extra" salt from the table shaker or the blue box in the kitchen next to the cooktop. Now, when you add salt at the table or when cooking, you add it till you TASTE it. You taste no salt in softened water, so I wonder if you really get that much salt from softening water? Is this maybe urban legend?
DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
Don,
"What about "All that salt" that gets put into soft water.... You taste no salt in softened water, so I wonder if you really get
that much salt from softening water? Is this maybe urban legend?"
If want to dig through this thread, this subject was covered in depth.
But the short answer is that ion exchange softeners do not add salt to the water.
Salt is used to regenerate the softener after the resin has become "exhausted" or nearly so. A water softener will add sodium ions to the water. Exactly how much sodium is added depends on many factors. You will never taste salt in a properly operating softener, because it is not present. Not an urban legend, a common misconception.
We were debating the effect of thee salt that is released, during regeneration, into the sewer/septic system on water systems, septic systems, grass and the environment.
I've got a mega manganese concentration from my well water, along with an optionally gifted septic system. My favorite tee shirts are stained a nasty brown...so, anybody got any more experiences with these alternative filter/softeners? My Beavis and Butthead tee is the last straw!
It's okay, I can fix it!
Edited 11/1/2002 6:40:14 PM ET by bucksnort billy
We live in rural Illinois and have used water softners for over 40 years. About 15 years ago we installed Addie brand, made in Wisconsin. Sold in the midwest by Farm and Fleet. Put them in three houses. Prior to this we rented them by the month and they provided the service which was often. I called the company befor purchase and since I would now be in charge of our service what parts did I need to stock? The answer was that we are a small company and we can be contacted directly even on weekends.
So far in 15 years we have only needed one part on the three units.
These units meter the water and recharge only when needed. They use less than 1/2 the salt of previous softners and we have perfect water. If you don't have a local distributor, try the internet, or Fleet. You don't need local service.
Farm and Fleet is toast, gone, kaputski. Bought by Tractor supply Co. Nowhere near the same as before.
I have two comments;
A freind of mine sells salt free units called CARE FREE . He swears by them.
I have talked to his customers and they love the units. They never lug bags of salt or pay costly maintenance fees. I cant say if they are good or bad because my water is 1 grain hard. I deal with clay instead. my second comment is I believe that my town puts more salt into the environment and reseviors via road salt then all the water softeners in our town backwashing. I used to have one and dumped it into my sump pit which day lighted to the edge of the road. Large quantites of water are also bad for septic systems.
Farm and fleet is not gone. Just built a bigger store here. Is called Blains Farm and Fleet.
Richard
Quality Farm and Fleet is gone. It changed it's name to Quality Farm and Country before going t... up. Maybe they are not the same company.
Richard, Mark &Fletch
I'm not so good with the search stuff, can you post any addresses? Thanks, BB It's okay, I can fix it!
I went to the basement to look for an address on my Addie water softner that you asked for.
Addie Soft Water, Inc., 1604 Plainfield Ave, Janesville, Wisc
This one has worked flawlessly for 15 years. You might inquire if they still make them the same. This one has lot of brass parts. The recharge is determined by a meter that you set for the number of gallons determined by the hardnews of the water supply. The meter itself is made of brass.
As I mentioned before of the three we installed only one has needed a repair part.
My son-in-law is an M D , he put one in his house about 10 years ago and when he moved that was the first thing that he took out for the new house.
Richard
Thanks, I'm working up some kind of water treatment program with a plumber buddy. Addie could be the ticket. It's okay, I can fix it!
Richard,
"These units meter the water and recharge only when needed. They use less than 1/2 the salt of previous softners and we have perfect water."
This is the unit that I had in my last house and installing a new Addie was one of the first changes I made to my new house. I, too, live in rural Illinois. Addie Water Soteners are exceptional in their simplicity and function.
Tim
I don't know where that blurb came from but it is full of errors. The worst is this statement ..."The amount of salt used to regenerate the exchange material governs both its hardness removal capacity and the water quality."
The amount a resin in the tank, the resin's capacity to remove certain ions from the water and the physical configuration of the tank distribution are fixed, unchangeable parameters that affect the capacity and efficiency of the unit. Fully "spent" resin requires a given amount of salt to fully regenerate it. Period. If twice the salt or ten times is used, it makes no difference. It is misinformend statements like that you sited that create the problems. If you believe that your softener will work better with twice the salt, you will use twice the salt and dump ten times the excess into your septic system or the municipal sewer. If the process were more fully understood, systems would be setup to eliminate most of the excess salt and a much smaller fraction of the salt used would be wasted/dumped.
I know the capacity of my softener. I know how much salt is required to regenerate it fully. I have it set to use only that amount. This is why I am not "lucky" and why my softener regeneragtion does not "abuse" my septic system.
I believe that you know more than the California regulators/politicians.
BTW, I did not intend to call you "not bright". Sorry if you took it that way. I took your statment about the grass as a "what if". I still wouldn't recommend that for your yard.
Edited 8/30/2002 7:54:36 AM ET by Tim
Even as an ex-ConCommer, the article seemed like the DET was being heavy headed. I have seen municipal wastewater treatment facilities cause more environmental issues than the "failing" on-site systems that they replaced. Wonder if this whole issue about septic systems is not merely one of improper dilution of the backwash. Bacteria are use to a saline environment; even without softener contributions. Average adult male loses a minimum of 4-6 grams/day through his urine output. Ballparking half of this into his septic system, that's still more than two pounds a year...
The alternative to "salt", sodium chloride, is potassium chloride. Frequently available where the normal rock salt is sold. It is a bit more expensive. Potassium should be less of a problem for people concerned with blood pressure related to sodium intake. It may also be friendlier to septic tanks.
Evaporation, usually by heating to steam and condensing, is the brute force approach It is energy intensive and if done in a conditioned space can compete with the AC.
Reverse osmosis can work where the water is not very hard. Any harder than a certain point and the dissolved minerals poke holes in the membranes that allow RO to work. These membranes are not cheap. Also the membrane is backflushed regularly. This water, loaded with concentrated minerals, must be disposed of. I have seen the tube used to dump this water into the drain become so caked with deposits that it was completely plugged.
4,
Based on this statement,
"Reverse osmosis can work where the water is not very hard. Any harder than a certain point and the dissolved minerals poke holes in the membranes that allow RO to work. These membranes are not cheap. Also the membrane is backflushed regularly."
I have to believe that you do not understand how reverse osmosis works.
There are limitations to what the membranes can do, and there are two types, thin film composite and hollow fiber. Thin film composites are best if there in no chlorine in the water. Regardless of the type of membrane, dissolved solids do not poke holes in membranes. Suspended solids might, if they were allowed to get in. A prefilter is required. Reverse osmosis (RO) can work if the water is very hard. In a large system, there will be several stages involved and the efficincy of the system is affected by supply pressure, supply temperature, the configuration and the how much of the supply is waste discharge and how much is purified effluent.
Sodium chloride, by the way, is a salt.
I did a bit of research on water softening befor I selected and installed my own system and even called tech support for one company, nice guy who explained things, From this I concluded that none of the RO systems sold in this area would survive the hardness for long. The tech explained that the in addition to just plugging the membrane can become partially imbedded in the membrane and tear small holes as the membrane is flushed. As it was explained to me the effect is purely mechanical.
Thicker or differently configured permiable barriers are designed for hard or even salt water use at the rates required to feed a house but none of the manufacturers questioned recommended their product in anything but slightly hard water conditions and low gallon per hour usage. At least one recommended having a water softener upstream of their filter to protect it.
One difference is in the size of the systems. While large commercial systems can provide thousands of gallons of water most residential RO systems are designed to feed a single tap for drinking water. Commercial systems have provision made to use cleaning solutions and anti-scale agents. Residential RO systems, generally, have no way to unplug a plugged menbrane or to add chemicals to prevent minerals from forming scale at the surface of the membrane.
Another issue is throughput. A conventional water softener uses 5 or 10 gallons of water to back flush the resin bed. This is after several hundred gallons of treated water are produced. A RO system uses far more water for flushing the membrane than are produced in pure water.
Ion exchange water softeners, conventional non-RO, can, if properly sized, provide the water for all uses in a house and do it reliably for many years with minimum cost and maintenence. They are a proven solution. RO systems are good at what they do but most are not suitable, IMHO, for general houshold water softening.
I agree that the membranes can and do become physically plugged and that is what causes the physical damage. The plugging is not a function of the water hardness.
To make them simple and cheap, residential RO systems that I have seen are not well designed for water purity or efficiency. Reverse osmosis is a complicated process. Creating an "install it and forget it" system, that works, is a great challenge. To my knowledge, not yet done, and that is why I too, chose a simple ion exchange softener for my house.
I designed an RO based water treatment system for boiler make-up at a fossil power plant a few years ago. The system had sand filters, a 20 micronand 5 micron prefilters, three stages, an automatic backflush cycle and provision for a regular dilute acid cleaning cycle. For 400 gpm, cost about $600K, installed. Not something for your house, on any scale. However, if designed, setup and operated properly, they will treat any water effectively.
Try this site for salt-free water softeners. Works by reversing the ionization of minerals with out actually removing them from the water. Not a magnet. Very interesting. Oh yeah - a bit more money, too.
http://www.alphausasystems.com/aquafree.htm
Edited 8/30/2002 2:43:42 AM ET by TEESKWARE