*
Is that why the building inspector has to come see:
The footing holes, before we can pour
The footings, and then the deck connections?
Sure am relieved to be able to start framing after all that
farting around.
By the way, what type of lumber was used in that Oregon
deck?
dog
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Replies
*
Not exactly good PR for the building inspector! A deck that
large should not fall down until at least 27 people are
packed into one corner!
*
Robbed by thieves upon thieves. Great wedding memories.
*Hello,Jon I was thinking Scio was around there. Didn't see it on the map. That's what I need, a town to call home that is not on the map. Let's face facts guys, a significant amount of construction work is not up to snuff. I'm sorry that this hapened to these people on their special day. Life is like that, never drop your gaurd, always trust your instincts. The woman who owned the deck had a premonition that this could happen. She did her due diligence, she had an `expert inspecter' aleve her worst fear. The inspecter should have listened to her! She knew the deck could fail but, not why. Her intuition was right and the inspecter should have listened. If he (I'm a sexist assuming only a man could pose as some one who knew how things are) knows Doug Fir from mush then he should have had some intuition keeping him up at night.
*MD.That is harsh, I can see why they call you MD.Love, Joe
*Only $2 million (Canadian)? The standard business plan of less reputable contractors is to go out of business (or town) when there's trouble. Tort liability could reach you personally. I would suggest more, it will probably cost peanuts.I'd like to hear more about what went on in this deck collapse. A disappointing thing about most journalism is that there's never any follow-up. "Steering Wheel Pulls Free In Driver's Hands" headline, but never any why.
*
Amen Joe.
You nailed it, and I shouldn't have made that tongue in
cheek remark. This is serious, and quite rightly, this
inspector should be taken to the fullest limit of legal
responsibility for passing the inspection.
I assume this was a privately hired, independent inspector,
but I relate it in general to the trend of regular building
inspectors, and if I hadn't seen some dismally
underqualified inspectors around here recently, I would have
a hard time believing this could have been passed even by a
bad inspector.
After all, what could be easier for someone to inspect? A
deck is usually so exposed, you couldn't miss finding rotten
wood or improper connections, spans, etc.
This area needs more experienced people. I am firmly of the
mind that a building inspector has to have actual BUILDING
EXPERIENCE to qualify for even applying for the job. Sadly,
this is far from true.
Hope some inspectors are following this thread, though if
so, they are probably the good ones who care about the whole
industry. The ones we get from a local contract firm look
like they had to be interupted from their tanning session at
the local beach! Come whisking in, all attitude and then
they leave with no communication as to whether something
passed or failed or why, etc.
I'm getting bitter and a little off track.
Have a good day
*
MD,
Your not off track at all. I'll bet money the house inspectors are earning a reputation to rival lawyers, newscasters,and contractors. Basic problems with inspectors is realators tell homebuyers who to hire. If an Inspector tells them whats wrong with the house then they won't get hired through that realator again. Realators get paid when deals close. Disapproval of homes condition post inspection = realator working and not getting paid. Just my opinion about general conditions in this industry.
Joe
*There are good real estate agents who depend on referrals alone once established. Ours didn't do any advertising, and we found him through two references. We did use his inspector reference, and i think the inspection was adequate (not exhaustive, but then you can only see so much without getting destructive on a house you haven't bought and we only paid $300 -- a $1000 "guaranteed" inspection was also offered that I balked at but am curious about). A very respectable guy, I'm bummed he moved away ... I have no idea how to find someone as ethical, knowledgeable, and no-nonsense again.I feel worse for that family on the deck the more I think about it.
*Joe,Hey! We are too on the map! You just have to squint a little. Look at Stayton, about 20 miles East of Salem on Hwy 22. Now squint, and look a little South of Stayton. Scio, Or, population 540. They say the population never changes because every time a woman gets pregnant a man leaves town. If you're ever in the area holler and I'll buy you a cup of coffee.Around here, being responsible for the death of somebody's elderly aunt at their wedding party is kind of a big deal. I'll keep ya'all updated as the details come out.As for assumptions, I'm assuming that not only was the building inspector male ("that's why you know that I know what I'm talking about maam"), I assume he was working out of Salem, home of some of the rottenest building practices and scams in the known universe. She would have been better off just asking one of the local loggers up in the Santiam Canyon to look at her deck. At least they would have known the difference between rotten wood (wont give you no money for that) and good wood (will give you money for that). I'd say "get a rope" but hanging's probably too good for him.JonC
*Lord, sure makes me want to be an inspector. The poor soul probably got $250, and didn't even use a ladder or scaffolding to inspect the Rim Joist Banding. Poor homeowner probably scoffed at paying more for it.The thoughts I have are:1. No Deck lasts forever. With more than 20" of rain, I wouldn't guaranty it over 8 years, and wouldn't expect more than about 10-12. Does anyone know how old a deck it was?2. I love redwood. It doesn't rot very easy, and loves moisture. What was that deck made out of?3. I don't nail my Banding to the Rim Joist. I use Carriage Bolts and Carriage Screws. From the news reports, I understand that this deck was just nailed. Ugh. Probably just No. 20 spikes, huh?4. I flash the bejesus out of the Banding, or better yet, use galvinized or stainless washers for spacers. This thing was proably nailed flush huh?5. Forty Feet. My God, that sounds high. I've never built a deck that high. Would cross-bracing be enough? Jeez, I'd probably want 8x8 pilings or a steel I beam.In any event, my heart goes out to the families of the injured and killed. They sure are not to blame. After the lawyers get through with the homeowner policy, there won't be much left for anyone.
*Joe down here on the Va. NC line, North carolina requires certification to become a home inspector, Va.says not yet. I see a lot of people jumping on the band wagon and have read the disclaimers and what is not required of the inspector. He doesn't seem to have much responsibility after the inspection. What started out as a good idea ie. a knowledgeable third party assessing the general state of a house has become a sales ploy. Inspect house, sale house end of story. Do You and any others out there know the current status of this fairly new industry in Your resppective areas?
*A 40 foot high deck collapses with 26 people on it and 18 people suffer no injury. That is miraculous (though small comfort to victims and their families).Rich Beckman
*Hi Skip,State of Oregon requires seperate licensing for private building inspectors. I'm unsure of education and certification requirements. Because of legal issues and liability exposure, when I inspect a home for good friends I do it i pro bono. Joe
*A word to the wise: like lawyers, you can be just as liable for freebies. A written disclaimer might not be a bad idea. Sorry to be a party-pooper.
*Don't we wish we only got 20" of rain per year - in 1996 Portland had 63.56in, 1998 had 46.77in (average is 36.30). The areas outside of Salem get a higher average than Portland by several inches. They call this stuff "Oregon liquid sunshine" - used to say that Oregonians don't tan, they rust... Oregon has two seasons, rainy and the Fourth of July. The mascots at the two largest Universities in the state are the Ducks and the Beavers, for good reason...Anyway, I haven't had time to follow up, but the original article quoted the homeowner as saying that the deck was "five years old", however, later in the article it said no one knew how old it was but that building permits were issued in 1992 and it might have been built then.
*Well, somebody has to land on top of the pile, just like somebody has to land on the bottom.
*
It is true that there are a lot of home inspectors out there who don't know a joist from a cabinet hinge. Many of them have taken 2 week home inspection classes [sometimes correspondence courses] and have moved from selling shoes to inspecting houses. It is also true that there are real estate agents out there whose only concern is getting the sale made. However. As a practicing home inspector in Washington State, a member of NAHI (National Association of HOme Inspectors) and ASHI (American Society of Home Inspectors), a licensed contractor and a licensed Washington State Pest Inspector, I can also assure you that there are a great many very qualified home inspectors who do excellent work. And there are some real estate agents who are truley professional. It is unfortunately true that getting the word to clients is easiest through real estate agencies, and that does present some conflict of interest problems. In hiring a consultant - any consultant- the process is not so different from hiring a contractor. You have to shop around, and you have to educate yourself about the services. It always amazes me that so many people, entering the biggest investment of their lives, will hire a home inspector without ever asking him a single question, or ever asking for his qualifications. My advice to anyone is - never hire a home inspector who has not had at least 10 yrs of remodeling experience. New construction doesn't count. Always be sure he is a member of one of the major national organizations - yes, we do have a code of ethics. If you are fortunate enough to live in a state that requires licensing, be sure he has one. Five years ago, only Texas required licensing for home inspectors, and now there are a dozen that do. That is largely due to the work of the national organizations of home inspectors. Most of us know someone well who is a real estate agent. One possible approach would be to ask that person who she would hire to inspect a home for her. Around here, I like it when clients ask agents that, because then I get a referral.
*
Is it a good biz? How does it compare to your contracting work?
*
Tragic as the story sounds, I heard a radio report describing the event as a wedding &/or reception. I suppose it shouldn't matter why so many folks were on the balcony but it seems especially sad to remember as an anniversary.
*
Micheal,
As a fellow home inspector I am glad to see another in the business who takes their work seriously. I get slammed by so many people, most of them realtors.They can say all they want to about the industry.I know that as a new industry we will have our problems, but only the strong will survive. As for people putting down home inspectors, I'd like to refer any of them to my last client whose home I found 3 double tapped circuits. Not to mention the aluminum branch circuits.This was in a home in which friends of the customer had told them home inspections are useless!
*Michael, I hope You didn't consider that I was slamming the Industry. Professional inspections seem like a great idea. I suppose some shaking out of the industry this early will be a positive move. I am considering it as a buttress to my own contracting business. The deck this post started out from poses an interesting study.On a normal inspection I don't know how much effort would be expended on the deck. That it was 40' up presents a problem of access and any failure of the deck that high, as happened, would be expected to be catastrophic. If the inspection was specifically for the deck then would more effort have been expended? Andrew, I would be interested in Your thought also. Thanks Skip
*Michael, I am not sure what publication you read that in, but 5 years agao Texas did NOT require a license for a Home Inspector. In fact, until the first of this year (1999) Texas did not require Home Inspectors to be licensed, trained, experienced, or even have any past association with the building/remodeling industry. Right now, for $350.00 I can take a correspondence course, take a simple test, and get licensed. According to the state, if I want to be a Licensed Home Inpsector now, I have 26 weeks (6 months) to take the courses, pay my fees, and get a license. It is perfectly legal for me to operate for 6 months without anything. After the 6 month period, they will prosecute (but only if I get caught). I am very sad at the thought of all those people getting hurt like that. It was a senseless thing, and it could have been prevented if incompetence and "don't give a crap" attitudes weren't getting so common. This is exactly the type of thing that dogs all of us. When something like this goes wrong because of incompetence, negligence, or arrogance, then we all suffer. The public doesn't hear about all the good things we do (Ever hear local news media talk about the "Outstanding Quality of the new home being built"?) They only hear about the bad things. This type of info sticks in their minds, and this is what they start thinking about whenever they need to hire a tradesman. Real pro's. who do real quality work have to work twice as hard, and be twice as good just to get people to notice. Sorry, I seem to be unloading again. Can't help it, I LOATHE incompetence.James DuHamel
*If the inspection didn't include the ledger it wasn't an inspection. The guy couldn't just collect his fee and leave because it would be difficult to get up there. Anyone knowledgeable would want to get up there and start sticking a screwdriver into the wood. If his inspection was as incompetent as it appears -- and I caution that I've learned many times the risk of armchair quarterbacking these things without all the facts -- he IS probably liable for recklessness.See, what I've learned here may come in handy for the legal half of my brain. Now, about that &*^$% tile I mis-set...
*James, I second everything you have said about incompetence. However, have you considered how incompetence can also arise because one may become complacent? Consider this: Once got a call from the area hotshot inspector. He wanted me--as an expert witness--to give my opinion about some extensive water damage in the subfloor of a home he recently inspected. His position was that the damage occurred after his inspection, of course. The new homeowner, however, was pissed because the inspector missed the damage. After my look, I advised that the plumbing leak and subsequent damage preceded--by years--his inspection. He tried to get me to retract this. The jist of it all is that the inspector had not simply missed the leak because of an oversight, but because he felt that, having inspected the house only 3 years prior, the conditions probably did not change that much. Hence, only a cursory inspection. He was playing the odds and he lost, big time. The thing is, he was only held responsible for the dollar amount of his fee. A more thorough inspection would have not only revealed the water damage but killed the deal.Also, another inspector in this area: he also has a pest control business and a roofing company. Quite commonly, he will leave--sometimes throw in--wood scraps lying in the dirt under a house. The odds are that he'll get the next inspection, termite report, and structural repair jobs. Both of these guys have all the credentials from the national associations (CREIA, ASHI, ICBO)
*
Rich, the only way we will weed those creeps out of the business is to take action. Those names should be given to the National Association they belong to. I doubt they would get more than a handslap, but even that is better than nothing. And yes, the inspection business should be an offshoot of the contracting business. It pays far better, but it is difficult to get enough inspections to work at it full time out there in the boonies [I live on Whidbey Island, Washington]. It is also very high in stress and in liability issues. The guy who inspected the house from which the deck fell ought to be drawn and quartered. At the same time, there is always the chance that you might miss some tiny clue, which would tell you a lot about what is going on inside a wall or floor. And by tiny clue, I am not talking about buckled flooring or soft spots. Another example is in the installation of the new items coming on the market. Here on Whidbey, we have lots of power outages, as power lines get blown down by winter storms. So people buy generators. This morning I inspected a house that was very well built with lots of class. There is a generator attachment wired in, and the wires from the generator box to the breakers in the panel are #12 wire, 600 amp rated, but are multistrand, rather than the solid copper of standard romex. So my question is, is this stuff good enough? I will call the county this afternoon, and a few electrician friends, but I have to get the report out ASAP. The ubiquitous question - what do I do now?
I got my info on the licensing in Texas from one of the two associations I belong to - I think. The truth is somewhat appalling. I would like to see some combination of - providing a set of samples of your work, or written confirmation of an apprenticeship, plus written proof of X years in remodeling, plus a significant written test, at least as difficult as the Washington State Pest Inspector test. If the example in Oregon with the deck tells us anything, it is that some significant action must be taken, and soon. My industry is growing very rapidly, and like the urban sprawl which is destroying the Northwest, it is unchecked, leaving lots of room for unscrupulous behavior. We who take pride in our work, wether it be as contractors or as home inspectors, must take responsibility for calling bullshit where we see it, when we see it.
It is good to see this discussion happening, and great to get the in-put from others like myself, heavily involved in the construction industry. One interesting point. I do a lot of volunteer work in my community. Last May, when we did our annual Hearts and Hammers day, I noted that the contractors that were there volunteering to fix and repair the homes of elderly or disabled people, for free, were the same contractors whose work I had admired over the last few years of doing home inspections. I think most of them are readers and contributors to Fine Homebuilding. Makes a certain amount of sense.
*
Waiting for someone to finish their work so I can finish mine - will play on the web instead of doing anything useful...
News article in yesterdays paper - 40' high deck colapses in Salem, Oregon. One killed, seven injured, two seriously. Owner said deck was 5 years old and had recently been inspected. Cause of failure was said to be dry rot - according to the Sheriff's office, nails pulled loose because of dry rot and the deck started rotate under the weight of the 26 people on it. Who would you say might get sued? Home owner, contractor, inspector, all of the above? How long would you expect a contractor's liability to last if "standard building practices" were followed? (A local TV news story on this recommended that everyone have their decks inspected twice a year at from "$75 to $150" per inspection... Some pocket change for somebody there...)
Question for Andrewd -
How do you assess the potential for increased litigation against contractors following hurricane Flloyd's little rampage. Or are most homeowners likely to accept that this is simply the act of a vengeful god? (Did I read about someone introducing a bill to eliminate the term "act of God" because they felt God shouldn't be blamed?)
*CaseyBecause of our national penchant for idiot proofing everything, recent code changes in Ontario make deck construction more difficult. All railings, for example, must now be constructed in such a way that the entire front line of your favourite football team can charge into it and be repelled. . . over & over & over. . . The railings had already been 'codified' to make sitting upon or climbing upon or squeezing through exceedingly difficult.To actually design a railing detail to look attractive, as well as functional is now virtually impossible. -pm
*Casey, why was the sherf even involved in the deck collapse? One more reason to consider building with proper joinery than just hanging a structure by those pointy metal thangs, especially a deck 40 feet high.To answer the liability issue, not just those named, but also the lumber company which milled and dried the wood and the company which sold it would be liable. At least in this litigous society. Sheez, maybe even the forester, for not being able to turn out a superior product.I'll beat Andrew to the punch: the insurance companies actuarial tables would have already calculated the potential.
*A deck should be as substantial as the house it is attached to. Here in Va. nails are a no-no because of similar stories to Casey's but what good is a well fastened ledger that is fastened to the next member by nails? I'm being a bit fascetious but getting back to my earlier point a deck should as substantial as a house. Suppose Your having a big party and the next door neighbors deck drops with a loud crash? What are the party goers going to do? Then there is the old question "what do You call 100 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean? A pretty good start." Another deck dropped at UVA not long ago. Just added that to tie in the lawyers with the deck thing...
*Another very good reason to anchor decks with lag bolts directly into the framing of the structure. My back deck is nailed to the sheathing (done about 15 years ago, before I bought the house), and it sways with the best of them. Just waiting for the addition to be financed/started to tear the old bag down. Where do we sign up to inspect decks @ $150 a pop? I could condemn a half dozen within 300 yds. of my house.
*Before we ALL jump on the lawyers, you have to admit that unless the people on the deck were doing something mighty strange, the situation says the deck was defective in design or construction. There's a legal term for this, res ipsa loquitor (it speaks for itself) -- stuff like this just doesn't happen without someone being negligent. Lots of decks are badly maintained but 5 years? I've read a number of stories of people being hurt where nails where used improperly, specifically to resist withdrawal. If I were building 40 ft. up (gulp) I'd want lots of fat carriage bolts so the building would have to fall off its foundation before the deck came free.Might be an interesting case. Was the dry rot present during construction? Was the deck built with enough safety margin? Was it used and maintained properly? Etc. Following "standard building practices" (like "I've always done it that way"?) is only a limited dodge, because as very famous tugboat case put it, an entire industry may lag behind the times. The standard is reasonableness. Imagine a lifetime of medical bills because someone else behaved unreasonably -- you'd expect them to bear part of the burden, no? And if you have insurance, the insurance company is likely to feel the same way. "Act of God" is a way of saying no one is to blame, or that the insurance company is so afraid of overwhelming liability that they're unwilling to insure against the risk (e.g., nuclear war).On Floyd: I've heard that "my" hurricane, Andrew in '92, was the turning point for building standards as to what worked or did not. The insurance companies also had to work through the mega-liability situation ($30 billion?) and doubtlessly amended their policies and requirements subsequently to protect themselves. Many claims they will just pay and forget about -- suing people is expensive. Most damage this time around seems to have been from flooding, and I haven't heard anyone blamed for that. At least federal flood insurance will help some of these people.I don't like the present system because litigation is inefficient. I do like insurance. I do want contractors to be held to account in proportion to their sloppy or deliberate misdeeds. Case in point: NPR said today the Taiwanese have arrested one contractor for the earthquake collapse of five of his buildings that were allegedly misbuilt. In one, "crushed vegetable cans" were used where bricks specified. So the pendulum swings both ways, from the abusive lawsuit to the take-him-out-and-shoot-him.Oops, it was an AP story on the shoddy construction. Check it out.Incidentally, if it's your insurance company's money that's on the line, they come in and represent you ... hopefully in your best interests.
*Now that this has shifted even more into liability, I hesitate to get involved. I was just made aware of a new home under construction just down from where I'm working. It has a major defect in that the engineer substituted a steel I-beam--to make more room in the garage--for a glulam. Then the contractor, on advice from the arch., made significant changes in the floor plan. The result was a major sag of the beam. Seems everyone forgot about the load calcs. Okay, so that was about dead loads, but what about the deck that Casey was talking about? Seems to me there was major negligence in allowing all those people onto the deck at one time. Should a deck be posted with an idiot proof warning label? Or, is it reasonable to expect a person--the homeowner?--would know when enough is enough?
*Rich, you're halfway through law school already. Now you just have to learn the stuff about fee collection.How big was the deck? That's what I meant by "mighty strange"... at 40 lbs. per sf (plus a safety margin of some %) you ought to be able to pretty much stuff the deck with people, right? Houses are typically so overbuilt that, yeah, I think idiotproofing is the goal.
*As for lawyers, they dont sue people, people sue people. After Hurricane Hugo decks around here changed. If a deck is attached to a house it has to be built like a house. Continuous footion and continuous tiedowns. So people wait till I am gone and hire a "decking contractor" to build it at 1/4 of what I would. Usually these contractors have no liscenes, no insurance, no permit and no sense. These are people that were not good enough to frame track houses. It goes back to the almighty buck. I saw one with 2x6 joists 12' spans. They butted into a 2x8 10' long. The ledgerwas nailed with 8d nails. it is scarey.-Rick Tuk
*Is that why the building inspector has to come see:The footing holes, before we can pourThe footings, and then the deck connections? Sure am relieved to be able to start framing after all that farting around.By the way, what type of lumber was used in that Oregon deck?dog
*Thank you, although the argument can be made not to have too many lawyers (guns) lying around, and for getting restricting the most destructive lawsuits (guns) to protect the public...
*In my mind...as someone who builds 10 decks/year...The deck should carry as many as will fit on it. Keeping in mind the present trend towards obesity... In Ontario, we require, site plan, (showing location of deck to scale), plan view, elevations, sections and detail drawings for any detail not shown in the section drawing. Pressure treated lumber for the frame is manditory. (End cut goes without saying). Initially I was pi s s e d, at them legislating us to do this...but most people don't mind paying extra for the additional planning..and I enjoy doing it. Remember guys, all deck builders are not created equal...don't paint us all with the same brush! 2 million liability, master builder's licence, and a link from the citie's website to ours....
*Andrew My latin is bad so for me "res ipsa loquitor" does'nt speak for its self. Joking of course. Rick I am not sure if I agree that people sue people. Seems to me that about the last thing that You see in a suit is the people sitting quietly next to their lawyers who are talking to the other lawyers in front of a judge(who is a lawyer) about some point of law that seems to have little to do with what got everybody inthe room to start with. Okay. That gives a thumbnail of my attitude towards the lawyers and their world. It's not a perfect system as someone once said but it is the best that's out there. My experiences have made me a bit skeptical. I realize I am generalizing but my attitude is shared by more than a few others I've talked to. Andrew I feel the same about shoddy builders. But with them I usually can follow the dialogue. Getting back to the deck, I think we agree that if the house can hold the people the deck should be able to also. That sure was a crummy wat to recycle those cans. Skip
*Unfortunately, the article didn't state the type of materials used. It did say that it was a split level deck of between "140 and 200 square feet" and was overlooking the North Santiam river. The 26 guests had asssembled along the far edge of the deck for a group portrait...
*How awful. You can see what happened -- at 40 feet above the footing, the posts provided little stiffness and bracing was probably absent. Put all the people (2 tons+?) on one side and it'll go over like an old tree held back by twine.
*Hey, Andrew, you never did answer that question in Casey's first post. It is a timed response, you may start now.
*I thought I did answer? Or do you mean the act of God part? You know, it's a funny thing -- when they pull a kid of of the rubble on Taiwan after 78 hours we sincerely thank God he's alive ... but we don't blame Him for anything. I want that job.
*The deck being discussed is just a few miles from me. Last word in the local papers was that the collapse was being attributed to the failure of nails and other fasteners in rotten unpressure treated wood. Building inspector was quoted as saying some of the wood was so rotten they could squeeze water out of it with their hands. I imagine he has been very recently counseled about making public statements under litigious circumstances.Word is that the bride (it was a wedding party) had just paid for an inspection of the deck prior to the wedding.JonC
*This summer my brother and a friend of his cut four of five dead trees down at my sister's place. It is true that my brother is a bit famous for irresponsible behavior, not thinking things through, etc., etc., but he has improved over the years. The trees came down with only one minor incident (the tree still fell in the right direction). I hear my sister explaining to a guest at a party that God must have had a hand in it, since nothing went wrong. Pissed me off, she would've given my brother all the blame if things went wrong, but gives him little credit.Rich Beckman