OK, so the subject title is designed to get your attention but there is a serious question/concern behind it. As a reasonably accomplished woodworking hobbyist, a homeowner who has survived two new home constructions and is in the early stages (design in but ground yet to be broken) of the last one, and a frequent and grateful poster here I have an observation that may be worthy of your commentary.
It seems to me that there is often a signifigant portion of responses to mine, and other’s, posts that seem to indicate that we would be well advised not to expect too much of a tradeperson’s willingness to do good or inovative work and/or explore new techniques. Forgetting for the moment the possible impacts of shifting cultural trends, technologies that speed our lives up and the fact that society may not explicitly reward good workmanship etc. etc. I wonder what happened to good old fashioned pride in dong a job well just for the sake of a sense of accomplishment? It seems that it is on the wane.
I do know that when my houses were built, one in NH one in FL (current adventure in western NC), the constant plea by any given trade was that difficulties were due to the trade that preceded and had just left! It was always someone elses fault! Perhaps there is a feeling in the building trades that their professions are under valued or appreciated? I certainally have a rudimentary grasp of the complexities and complications involved and try to be empathetic, but again why wouldn’t a person just do good work for their own personal good feeling about self? I sound naieve and at 68 welcome that! Perhaps it’s time to revert to the old guilds and apprenticeship systems/standards, without the Dickensian implications attached! Your comments are welcomed.
Replies
There are a lot of quality oriented craftsman out there. the problem is in the high production building trade the the market is so competetive that standards are lowered just to stay in the ballgame.
Its up to the GC to hold quality within reason. If you are not getting a satisfactory result someone is not doing their job
I recently did a big remodel where the home owner insisted on holding the line on cost. I brought in an electrician who did all the work within code but his eye for detail was noticeably off. When the job was done the HO whined about the elec. finishes. I told him I could have brought in another guy who I was sure would do great work, but at twice the price. He got what he paid for
You can get quality if you are willing to pay for it
Yes I understand, however it's precisely that equation, money buys quality, that bothers me when it comes to workmanship. It's clear that money buys quality, often dramatically, in materials but why should the same large range exist in workmanship?
Yes I understand, however it's precisely that equation, money buys quality, that bothers me when it comes to workmanship. It's clear that money buys quality, often dramatically, in materials but why should the same large range exist in workmanship?
I apologize, but that is a silly question.
Do you mean to say that it is ok for a manufacturer to charge more for a good product, because it cost more for the materials and labor to make it, but it's not ok for a skilled tradesperson to charge as much as the market will bear, because he knows that he delivers a superior product?
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
"why should the same large range exist in workmanship?"Because it can easily take two to ten times as long to do the fine kind of work you are speaking of.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
" but why should the same large range exist in workmanship?"
We try to maintain high standards of quality for our work. We tell our employees and subs to take enough time to do the job properly. We tell them to tear it out and redo it if necessary to meet our standards. We are willing to pay for this and we pass this cost on to our customers. We don't expect them to do the work for free and in fact, the best employees and subs cost more? Our customers are willing to pay for this. Are you?
Personal integrity and commitment to quality are not virtues that our society as a whole has embraced, but neither is the concept dead. And yes, each trade will find their path dictated to a certain extent by the trade that preceded. You can't allow a sloppy foundation and then demand flawless framing. As was pointed out, the General Contractor's job is to hold each trade to a high standard from the outset, with an eye on how the following trades will be affected.
Did you research your contractors before choosing? Did you pick them because of their reputation for quality? Such contractors exist, but are not low-bidder on production housing projects. The sad truth is that quality costs more. You don't always get what you pay for, but you seldom get what you don't pay for.
You don't always get what you pay for, but you seldom get what you don't pay for.
exactly....
but what i also find is that someone really thinks their crap is "good work" I'm not slam'n em they just really don't know what good is...
if the best you have ever eaten is McDonalds.... and some asks where the best place to eat is... you'll tell em McDonalds...
In building and in all things... you judge quality (or good) by what you've seen or been exposed to
you can get great quality work from someone who has never done great work just by show'n em exactly how you want something done... letting them take their time and praise'n what they have done.... and sometimes you can't.... I use to think it was me... I'd explain what we were going to do... how we were going to do it... and even why we were doing it this way... and still got crap... it happened so often i'd ask... why is what i want so clear to me and others can't see it? I'm I assume'n they understood? did i not explain it well? got to the point... I'd have em explain back to me what & how we were going to do something... i was amazed with 2 things... 1. they never heard what i said...didn't have a clue.... or 2. they understood could tell me exactly how i wanted it... and still thought it didn't matter.... I had much better luck with number 1 types reexplaining it too them... cause #2 types just didn't care...
oh yeah... make sure the guy reading the level sees the level like you do... i like the bubble centered some think as long as it's beteen the lines we're good....
I have one great guy now he understands think'n 5 steps ahead and the time we take now saves trouble 5 steps down the line... priceless
pony
the constant plea by any given trade was that difficulties were due to the trade that preceded and had just left!
Limeyzen, that statement doesn't prove that a lack of pride exists. Quite often, trades following one another tend to find fault for their own inefficiencies by blaming everyone else but themselves. Contrary to common beliefs, the jobsites aren't really the domain of burly bright "real men". Instead they are often crawling with bi-tchy, whiny prima donnas.
We're all guilty of it at sometime or another...some of us simply suck up our pride and just shut the heck up! Then we get the job done....right.
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I agree that the statement on it's own proves nothing other than I have a particular point of view born out of my own reaction to my experiences. However, those experiences include getting responses to my various posts here and reading other's posts/threads. Example, I had missed a prior thread when I posted this one. It's under the heading of "Custom home quality?" and I just added my two cents.
I learned a valuable lesson in picking a builder/GC when I had my house built. I had it narrowed down to 2. One was a nice guy, #1, that told me everthing I wanted to hear. The other, #2, told me things I didn't like hearing, including a higher price, and wasn't all that personable. Builder #2 built nice cost plus custom homes and was known to be hell on subs and had even literally ripped work out (cabinets) and threw it outside and told them to do it over. Builder #1 generally built your average turn key custom homes. I chose #1 and regretted it ever since. I now think I could have put up with #2 in order to get a quality home. He had a penchant for quality and would not put up with crap from subs. I later met some of #2's subs and they were indeed happy, they had made the cut. I guess the point is if you want quality you should make that your priority in selecting a builder or GC. As it turned out #1 builder cost as much as #2 builder. He shorted the cost estimates to get the job.
The "good enough" attitude applies to so many aspects of our lives today, it's hardly odd that it shows up in building as well. Buy crappy, cheap products at Wal-Mart (at least it's cheap, eh?)...buy a mediocre meal that is less than good for you...at least it's fast. Some people don't notice, don't think about a lack of quality in a product, whether it be a house or a trinket. But I think those of us who do notice it should make the appropriate choices in every facet of our lives.
"Good Enough" is the enemy of "Best"...always!
remember that lots of the fine craftsmanship you see in older homes was done by recent immagrants who had lived generations working at homes that they could NEVER hope to own themselves (they got very low pay, compared to what the home owners had, money-wise). Many of them worked that hard when they got here and raised their families in rented apartments and didn't get a car until fairly far along in life. Their retirement was dependant on their kids. In other words, they earned relatively little and got by. Some prospered and others did not.Today almost everyone has a home of their own, and two cars and kids to put thru college and so on. Paying a living wage these days (to your builder, and his crew) that can support that level of lifestyle, when you (the homeowner) are living at pretty much the same level, is pretty tough.Of course, there are lots of builders who are also 'just getting by', but the cost of 'just getting by' these days is much more than it used to be, is my point.As it turns out, most of the immagrants these days are unskilled, so we get cheap gardening and dishwashing, but its harder to find a cheap stone mason or wood craftsman (i.e. recent immagrant with low expectations of income) than 100 years ago. It sucks but many new homes, even "custom" homes , are built kinda crappy because the really good stuff costs more, and that includes the people working on it, and how many can afford one that costs 2X the average? Also, high volume usually = crappy, except in special circumstances with very high control (like electronics and auto manufacutre), and homes are being built at an alarming rate for many decades now. The average home, by definition, will be "average".Norm
Edited 1/19/2005 12:26 pm ET by Norm
but many new homes, even "custom" homes , are built kinda crappy because the really good stuff costs more
The really good stuff shouldn't have to cost more. But it does, particularly with the big builders, because they won't spend wisely. The fact that they are running on volume (quantity) results means they can't focus on quality results. The best they can hope for is average.
It really saddens me to see these 1/3 to 1/2 million "starters" in a tract SD, that could have been much more house as a one-off, with exactly the same crews.
Ok, I'm biased, I see it as a plan & design thing--you give builders a crummy plan, then you tell them to use the bargin bin materials, and faster faster faster, you are never going to get a quality product.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I don't think anything has changed. Pride of workmanship is rare and always has been.
The better qualities of human beings have always been exemplified by the few and shunned by the many.
I'm thankful for the loyal opposition! It's hard to learn much from those who simply agree with you.
King Solomon said,
"Do you see a man who is skilled in his craft?
He will serve before Kings and Princes"Not only does this say that only the top dollar people can afford the top performing craftsment, but that they are as rare as royalrty
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
And who's going to argue with Solomon? He has such a long standing reputation!I'm thankful for the loyal opposition! It's hard to learn much from those who simply agree with you.
Crikey! I leave for a few hours and when I get back there's all these replies! Thank you all. Many well made points.
The major common theme seems to be that we consumers, read customers, should expect to pay more for higher quality work. But isn't it a matter of degree? Should I expect to pay more for basics being performed well instead of slip shod? Examples: electrical outlets/switches not at constant height from floor but plus or minus 2 inches for switches and plus or minus 1" for outlets. Or drywall seams that show ridges prior to painting and without an oblique light shone on them. Or a foundation that is out of square by 4" using the 6, 8 10' measure. Or fiberglass insulation with gaps in bays of a half inch or more and on and on. Not all of these things, plus many others, happened to me, some to friends that I actually saw, and none were done by the lowest bidder but typically mid range and the houses (all on East coast outside of major metropolises), were in the high 200's to low 400's range none more than 2500 sq ft built within the last 5 years. In each case the GC (different ones) claimed shortage of "quality concious help". I can only conclude that that also included the GC's! <grin>
You can bet that we were very careful in selecting the GC for our final home and have had very frank conversations, confirmed in writing, about our expectations and quality standards. To his credit he replied equally frankly about what he was and was not ready to commit to and we have a mutually acceptable contract. But it shouldn't be such hard work.
Limey--You said you're in Western NC and looking for quality construction. I lived there for several years (left 11 years ago) and had "fun" building stuff. The good subs are all hippies/transplants, as the locals tend to have a work ethic problem. (Extremely prejudiced and undoubtedly flawed statement, I'm sure, but born of the ongoing frustration I experienced there.) In the county where I lived, local politicians had spent the previous 50 years getting as many people to go on welfare as possible, thus solidifying their political base by threatening to remove government assistance once the people had become dependent on it. Do that for a couple of generations, and you wind up with people who don't know how to do a day's work and don't care. Other contractor friends complained all the time that they'd hire a guy, and he'd stick around just long enough to hurt himself and get worker's comp.Another point: If a workman/"tradesman" lives in squalor and is drunk most of the time, how might we expect him to even know acceptable quality work when he sees it? At the time I moved from Western NC, 20% of the houses in the county still didn't have indoor plumbing.I wouldn't want to be a GC over there -- it's a hard go. I have no idea how anyone could commit to quality standards using local labor.
In my susburban area, the 2500 square foot at $200k to $400k range is a production semi-custom home bought at retail; if the buyer isn't the GC building their own home.
The only things the subs care about is getting it done as quickly as possible. I have worked in those houses, built by a nationally known builder. The homes are garbage. Everything in it is as cheap as possible. Yet they sell as fast as they are put up.
Goes to show you the wonders of a warranty on nice looking paper and the power of an advertising campaign.
So many, from the site superintendent down to the site laborer have some type of incentive based pay. The super gets more money if the schedule is squeezed a bit, allowing for a few more closings that month. Now the trades are sharing time while working on top of each other to get it done... me first, screw you.
Imagine being a contractor bidding on a project, told of a certain schedule. That is what you base the bid on- so many days, so many men. Now the builder wants more done so they get their money faster and close out the project. Now you need help NOW because you are falling behind, and there are penalties in that contract. Everything snowballs.
Drywallers are paid by the sheet or square foot. The faster they get it done, the sooner they go home, paid for 8. Same goes for roofers and exterior siders in my area- union or not.
Residential electricians are expected to install at least 800 feet of pipe a day, per man. Compare that to 200 feet if you are on a commercial job.
You can bet that we were very careful in selecting the GC for our final home and have had very frank conversations, confirmed in writing, about our expectations and quality standards. To his credit he replied equally frankly about what he was and was not ready to commit to and we have a mutually acceptable contract. But it shouldn't be such hard work.
That was the best thing you could have done.
"...but again why wouldn't a person just do good work for their own personal good feeling about self?"
Because the vast majority of people didn't pick their vocation based on what made them feel good about self. They are not in business to feel good about self. They are in business to make money. Just ask them.
Specializing in the restoration of Victorian homes I've earned a high level of respect for the workmanship and craftsmanship in those homes. And the work I do is along the same high levels. Yes it costs more, and takes longer, but the end result is done right. Unfortunatly what I'm seeing here in the past year or so (MA), is clients want work done fast, and cheapest, and don't want to hear about permits or licenses. Ironically it's that same attitude that has resulted me going back to 3 recent clients after being 1st told "you're too expensive", then seeing them hiring an unlicensed unskilled contractor, and me coming back o fix the problems the right way, at a much higher cost than my original estimate. As they say "you get what you pay for". I've also seen $700k+ homes that were falling apart a year after being built.
JoeF
Renaissance Restorations
Antique & Victorian Home Restoration Services
http://www.renaissancerestorations.com
I also wonder if how everything is segmented between the trades today is part of the issue. On older homes, the guys doing the frame would be building the cabinets and hanging the crown, and I bet they made damn sure they built square and had the blocking in to save time and keep quality later.
-Stevehttp://www.lukeworks.com
I am a tradesman, and I have pride in my work. However, there are conditions involved.
I am an employee. Therefore, after all is said and done, I must carry out my employers wishes. On most jobs, there is not enough time for perfection. Sometimes, there is barely enough time to get it "good enough".
As many of us know, there is a fixed amount available to complete a given job. Sad to say, but time is indeed money. If a builder only pays 32 hours for a particular job in a production home, then the buyer gets a 32 hour job. Simple as that. Anyone with half a brain will realize that the boss will withold some of that time right off the top, reducing the time even further.
Put another way, a sense of accomplishment in a job well done can give me a warm fuzzy feeling, but that same feeling doesn't pay the bills.
More often than not, different trades try to "claim their space" with little regard to others that may follow. It takes time to plan, and that time may not be available. It isn't uncommon for one trade to cause all kinds of headaches for another. Those headaches are not in the bid, so now you must work harder to stay on track. Why do plumbers run their piping down the center of a joist space and screw everyone else that could also use that space instead of keeping it tight to one side? There is a common example of a big headache.
Yes, there are workers in any field that do crappy work and find it acceptable. If that person is fast, and the employer finds the standard acceptable, then that is what you will get.
I served an apprenticeship. I was taught the proper way to do things, but that philosophy does not always hold true in the field. Time is money in the field.
A bigger issue are the architechts and engineers that couldn't find their backside with a mirror, a GPS device and a map. No one wants to pay for a mechanical overlay and check for collisions. Everything would fit on my current project, but someone forgot to figure the steel beams in the ceiling height. Oops. Now the guys in the field have to figure out a way to "make it fit" and still make the boss money. The overpaid suits that drew the mess got paid....
When a customer submits a project for bid, yet chooses the lowset bidder, what do you think the end result will be? If a client expects stellar workmanship, then those expectations should be detailed. A good contractor should ask what the expectations are, explain what the customer will get, and charge accordingly.
Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance
And that was just your second post here?Most excellent and welcome aboard.Edit: As to myself...I'm self-employed and hold myself to a higher standard than most guys around this area. Frequently enough, I pay for it myself because I won't do crap work. Can't sleep with myself if I do. But you've expressed much from the perspective of an employee. Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.Edited 1/19/2005 11:14 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
Edited 1/19/2005 11:20 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
Thanks for the compliment.
There are some jobs that I do on my own for myself, and I have learned to ask the client what kind of job they want.
Some want it done right, at any expense, and they are willing to pay for it.
More want it done right, but when they hear the bill, good enough is the standard.
Most just want it done as cheaply as possible because they will not be there long, so in the end, the next owner gets screwed. That is the biggest problem affecting quality work and fixtures/parts.
Either standard, if a bid is submitted for "proper work", and the client wants it done cheapo, you will not get the work. On the other hand, if you do cheapo work for a client expecting stellar work, there will be problems. I am proud of the work I do, no matter what level, because I can give most what they want, and are willing to pay for. At any level for myself, referrals are the best, and I get them from the primo and the cheapo folks. Even at a cheapo job, there is usually room for a freebie little something extra that doesn't cost me much, and people notice that.
I also hold myself to a high standard, and I have lost a couple of jobs as an employee because of it. That sucks. Now I hold my standard only as high as someone is willing to pay for. If I need to crank it up a notch, the standard falls a bit (or a lot), and I stay employed. In the end, the boss cares more for profit than a standard, that has been a constant anywhere I have been. Fortunately for me, I am now working for someone that also cares a great deal about how it looks and how it works.
None of this addresses employees with a poor work ethic, and I have met many of those. Unfortunately, it can take an employer a long time to weed through them. It is possible for a tradesman to make a career doing crappy work at a different employer every six months. Unfortunately, some problems aren't found until it is too late. Just as bad are the employers that only care about speed- the guy that gets an 8 hour job done in 5 or 6, and standards are nowhere to be found.
Let us not forget about builders or GC's that withold payment from the sub, and the kind of relationship that can create. I have been told many tales about subs never receiving that final 10% payout because the GC NEVER pays it- like a personal bonus. If a builder or GC has new subs every project, there is a reason.
Edited 1/20/2005 7:15 am ET by danski0224
I agree with you Dan, being able to adjust your speed and quality to match (or just slightly exceed) the expectations set for you is the hallmark of an experienced craftsman.
A guy I used to work with said he "refuses to do anything but the best work he is capable of." He did nice work, but man it took him forever! We're talking weeks and weeks to trim out the inside of a simple little ranch house. Scribing joints that he knew the owner wanted covered with trim. Needless to say, he couldn't hold a job for long. There's no need for shoddy work, but there is a need to adjust your quality down to meet the market demand.
I figure I usually work to maybe 80% of what I am capable of, most of the time. That last 20% takes the time and isn't noticed by many people.
There's a related article in the latest issue of Walls and Ceilings. Subs, specialty contractors, GC's etc speak to the subject.
When you finally realize that craftmanship takes time and start charging for it.......oddly enough you start making money. You're certainly not in competition with yourself.
Rest assured there's craftsmen out there in every trade. Not in abundance, but there to find..........and hang onto.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
pride is irrelavent. think of price, speed and quality as a triangle. any increase in one causes decreases in the others.
McMansions are crappy because speed and price are most important when building spec houses. quality takes too long and costs too much. large builders buy materials for several (or many) houses at a time to get a discount. this leads to lowest common denominator construction techniques. like 3 guys trimming out a 5000 sq. ft. house in a day or two, using materials that belong in a doublewide.
i like seeing what happens to all the crappy spec houses that people bought in the last ten years. good time to be a remodeler. listing agents walk in these dumps and say, "alright, to sell this place, this, this and this needs updating. like right now.
also, everyone in the trades places blame on the preceding crews. they should. that's why painters get blamed for everything, because they're last.
DCS Inc.
"He who xxxxs nuns will later join the church." -The Clash