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Any portland based product that has been sitting on a shelf for six months or so, should be mixed well before use. That is, the dry mix needs to be re-mixed, as the heavier ingredients will settle to the bottom of the sack, and what you scoop off the top is not going to perform as expected. Actually, any multi- ingredient dry mix should be handled this way. Try re-mixing the dry product, it will usually do the trick.
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...and is it considered an acceptable grout for kitchen wall tile?
I recently stood in a women's kitchen as she detailed to me all of the things wrong with the work done by someone else. Among the many problems was that the tile was grouted with polymer modifed dry wall grout. The finished grout can be scraped easily with a fingernail.
What's the story on this stuff? Thanks.
Rich Beckman
*I suspect that the material in question is regular grout. Most grout today is polymer modified. The "dry" in the name probably refers to it coming as power to be mixed with water as opposed to premixed grout or epoxy grout.Now on to the problem of it being too soft. My guess is that the grout was mixed and applied properly using a material that had exceeded its shelf life. I learned this the hard way once having used grout that was several years old. It mixed fine, went on fine, cleaned up fine, and looked great. The next day it had returned to powdered form and washed right out of the tile. Fortunately it was easy to get out and redo. Now, I don't keep any grout for more than a few months.I think in this woman's case she needs to have the grout removed and redone using new material.
*"Dry" refers to a non-sanded grout in powder form. Usage of this product does not constitute a problem, as your post seems to imply. Any problems are associated with the installer. Non-sanded--"dry"--is intended for use for grout joints of 1/8" or less. Is it possible the joints are wider than this? If so, use a sanded grout. Usually, I agree with Mike Mahan. But, if I understand his words, he is saying there is a shelflife for portland cement-based products. This may be the case, but certainly it is not measured in months. My take on the soft grout is that the installer used too much water in wiping the excess grout, or he retempered the grout while still in the bucket. This grout will reach a compressive strength of 5500 psi in 7 days. This will not happen if over thinning of the grout mix occurs. In fact, it can be as soft as chalk (1 on Moh's hardness scale) if excess water is used.
*Rich, I don't know what the shelf life is, but I am sure it is more than months, too. It is less than several years. After having had to redo one job, I think it is cheaper to risk throwing out good grout than it is to risk using bad. As you point out retempering or using too much water could be a problem, too.
*Rich,
Joseph Fusco View Image
*Some clarification. I saw the bag the grout came in. In big bold letters: Dry Wall Grout. The polymer modified in smaller type. I didn't read enough to know if it is a portland cement product...stupid of me.She is planning to have the tile removed and redone. Not just the grout is bad, but there was supposed to be bullnose at the ceiling where there is a full normal tile and a tile cove piece at the floor where there is a one inch gap covered by that vinyl cove base material.The gap is 1/8"Not just the wall tile, but the cabinets are wrong, the counter the wrong color, and the vinyl floor tile poorly laid. She is planning to have it ALL redone.There was something about injuries to her dog which then had to be put to sleep.From the responses, I would guess that the grout would be ok, but the installation was botched.I will try and get back to look at the bag again.ThanksRich Beckman
*Rich,
Joseph FuscoView Image
*Dont know about the grout, but id be careful and get everything she wants done in writing, and be specific. She may have legitimate complaints, the tile at least sounds like shoddy workmanship, or she may be one of those people who dont know what they want until you are finished, and its not what they envisioned, so its all wrong and nobody wins.For that many things to go wrong on a job there are usually problems on both sides, but she could have just been screwed over by a bad contractor.
*Rich,Charles is right. When I red your original question my loser signal went off. I wouldn't do the job. Sorry, I just don't think this i the right job for me. RUN!
*I haven't gotten back to see the bag yet, probably not til the end of the week.The "loser signal" went off for me too. I asked her about her expectations, and she is mostly interested in someone she can trust (apparantly some stuff disappeared during the work also). I am not concerned because she is a good long standing family friend with one of my best friends. He referred her to me. He takes great pride in matching deals that work. I am sure I am OK. But thanks for the point.The court date isn't until June 29, so who knows what will occur between now and then.Rich Beckman
*I'm with Charles, BE CAREFUL. Sounds to me like this woman has a serious "mad on". It is possible that no matter how good job comes out now, she will be less than satisfied. Pet had to be put down? man, that sounds like trouble to me. CYA brother - Cover Your Ass. - yb
*Court date? Did you mantion that earlier? or is this a joke? - yb
*Rich,
Joseph FuscoView Image
*I'm sorry. No joke. She is taking the guy to court to try and get the money back to redo the work.Rich Beckman
*man, Rich, do you really want to get in the middle of this? How is this ever going to come out good? - yb
*I'd guess 'shelf life' of portland based products has lots to do with humidity in the shelf environment. Did a test batch last week with some portland that had been in the garden shed for a year (or maybe it was from the prior year's project). Looked perfectly dry and powdery, no caking, only a few clumps. Mixed it 1:3, portland:sand, a little sloppy with the water. Might as well have been all sand and water. That stuff was dead. And that was with a heavy dose of bonding additive!Point is you can't tell by appearance. I'd guess it's a lot safer to just toss old stuff or at least do a test batch if in doubt.
*DScott: Now that is interesting! But let's go all the way back to the start of the manufacturing process. What is potland cement but merely crushed lime and silica that is burned to a clinker state, then pulverized. No man made additives, just natural, whole grain goodness. Now, how can that go bad, ie, stale? Other than adding water, how can cement be used, or otherwise go "dead"? Don't want to dispute, just want to know.
*Air borne moisture.
*Yeah, but moisture will render the cement unusable because the stuff dries into rocks. DScott said he used the stuff. I'm assuming he didn't use the rocks. Sugar kills the cure. I'm thinking along that line--something contaminated the cement. So, what do you think; if cement were packaged in such a way that would eliminate any possibility of air, water, or water vapour contacting the cement, would the cement last indifinitely? As long as the packaging remained intact, right?
*My own feeling is this: Over a long enough period of time portland cement particles will react with moisture in the air. If this process is slow enough, especially if there is aggregate in the product, clumping into rocks may not occur. In this case the product will remain powdery enough to be mistaken for an uncured product. If contamination is rapid, or caused by liquid water clumping will occur. This seems to be what I have experienced and makes some sense, but could be dead wrong.
*For those none of you wondering, I finally was able to get back to the lady to see the bag again. It is a portland cement product, so I am guessing that the guy just used too much water, consistently too. You can scape it out with a nail anywhere in the job.As for the other issues, she goes to court on 6/29, so no news there.Rich Beckman
*Any portland based product that has been sitting on a shelf for six months or so, should be mixed well before use. That is, the dry mix needs to be re-mixed, as the heavier ingredients will settle to the bottom of the sack, and what you scoop off the top is not going to perform as expected. Actually, any multi- ingredient dry mix should be handled this way. Try re-mixing the dry product, it will usually do the trick.
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Any portland based product that has been sitting for six months or so, needs to be mixed again before use. That is, the dry mix should be re-mixed to insure that the haevier ingredients that have settled to the bottom of the sack are evenly distributed. Actually, this holds true for any multi-ingredient dry mix. Try re-mixing, the product will preform as expected.