“Best Builder Upgrades” was an interesting thread for me because of the close relationship to what our magazine is about, “Fine” Home building. I’d like to promote the discussion a little. What is “Fine” homebuilding? Is it custom cabinets and crowns, fancy decks and solid wood doors. Is it energy efficiency and useful space? Or is it simply doing everything, even less-attractive things (vinyl siding) as perfectly as possible.
Yeah, I know, “Fine” home building is all these things, but I still wonder what it means to others. So what separates “Fine” homebuilding from average home building?
Brian P.
It’s my job!
Replies
doing everythin "right"
putting in craftsmanship (eg shaker furniture is simple lines but beautiful when done with graftsmanship)
putting quality into whatever materials are used
guess these are all versions of the same thing
bobl Volo Non Voleo
For whatever style you choose to build, it's looking for the "most right" way to do it. It's choosing to not cut a corner just to save a buck or cut a day off the schedule. It's choosing to redo something if not done right. It's deciding that a flaw is a flaw--even if it can later be hidden with molding or caulk or paint--and needs to be fixed. A "Fine" home would have a fine foundation, fine framing, fine electrical, fine hvac, fine finishing...even if none of these was the most elaborate or expensive of the available systems. "Fine" is less about what was done, and more about the way it was done. This is so Zen...
This topic comes up repeatedly here in different forms, and it's always interesting to see how emotionally charged the question can be for some folks. I thought it might be helpful to look up the definition of "fine". From Dictionary.com, here are three choices that seem pertinent:
"1. Of superior quality, skill, or appearance"
"6. Exhibiting careful and delicate artistry"
"10. Characterized by refinement or elegance"
Those would make the vinyl haters happy. If you want materials like vinyl to fit, you can also include the following:
"11. Satisfactory; acceptable"
The one thing that IS evident, is that "fine" is not characterized by size or number of turrets. :-)
"A completed home is a listed home."
Brian,
I followed the thread closely myself. The one thing I came away with was how much it kept morphing into, what a builder could do to maximize value on a spec. house. ie. what the home buyer is willing to pay for. Granted some things might be overkill, but perhaps the title of the thread should have been more along the lines of "if price is not the primary contraint, what are the best ways to build a house." That probably wouldn't work either as it's kind of long.
Jon
but perhaps the title of the thread should have been more along the lines of "if price is not the primary contraint, what are the best ways to build a house
Wow, that's so close to a thread I've wanted to start, but haven't come up with a short way to express it. What might be interesting, would be to examine how to put quality in without expense. Not "How to build the house cheapest," but closer to "What epenses can be cut and still get a fine house?"
Like I said, not really for this thread, and not quite ready for its own.
"What might be interesting, would be to examine how to put quality in without expense. Not "How to build the house cheapest," but closer to "What expenses can be cut and still get a fine house?""
That's interesting, but tricky. Seems to me quality can come from three different directions (assuming that "workmanship" is a given):
1) Expensive materials. They can add a lot to the richness of "feel" in a house, but where do you draw the line?...the $400 sink instead of the $40 sink?...or the $3000 sink instead of the $400 sink?
2) Extra time/labor. Interesting effects can be had with ordinary materials but it can be time intensive. Paying someone else to put in an "extra" 100 hours of labor on one aspect of a house can get pretty expensive. You can DIY, but that opens up a whole nother can of worms...
3) Design. Nothing can make a house better quicker and without necessarily adding labor or using pricey materials, than good design. But will a customer pay for good design- for an architect to create custom plans?
1) Expensive materials.
2) Extra time/labor.
3) Design.
Ah, yes, my argument in a nutshell, and succinctly put. I try to "distrubute" expensive materials if I am the designer. I see no point in spending $75000 on solid stone detailing that could be much better spent inside--where the people live. Getting the most out of expensive labor hours is a consideration. I have no problem with paint-grade window trim, especially in MDF--though some trim carpenters shudder at the thought. But, if the trim is exposed, having head and jamb trim and stools and aprons gives a "finished" feel to a house--even if it is painted mdf. (I need to stir up a thread on triming windows versus shades/curtains.)
Good design is almost aways worth the dollars. Unfortunately, good design is hard to find. Like many other good trades, we want the best, and have to find ways to get what we want. It's possible, and worth the effort.
Is it custom cabinets and crowns
I don't know about those my parents POS in houston had custom cabs, crown everywhere, etc, still a POS
I'm going to go beyond quality craftsmanship, that should be an obvious attribute
Clean respectable workers who maintain a clean and safe site for starters
The right product for the right job, not using DW screws to hang cabs etc. (this one is for piffin)
Respect for your clients and get it returned,
Make appointments on time when you have them, don't be late if you can at all avoid it and call if you will be late.
Change orders: Use them
Use reputable sub's
Good communication with the client, espescially in remodel when they are living in your work enviornment.
NO SMOKING in the house, you would think this would be obvious but it ain't
Maintain your deadlines, if you say your going to be done in two weeks be done in two weeks, not two months
etc etc
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professional build the Titanic.
I basically agree, but your requirements are more like "polite homebuilding."
I don't think "polite homebuilding" is different then "fine homebuilding"
They should go hand in hand, the best builder in the world can basically suck if his customer relations are not up to par with his abilities.
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professional build the Titanic.
Just home for lunch right now but you might want to check search archives for a discussion we once had about excellence and what it means. not sure of the title - maybe what is excellence? or something like that.
Excellence is its own reward!
Piff - I'd like to hear back from Brian as to the useability of the search function. Or maybe THEY have access to a different program than WE do.
Do it right, or do it twice.
"I'd like to hear back from Brian as to the useability of the search function."
I don't know anything about it being "useable." <G>
Brian P.
It's my job!
Edited 5/16/2003 4:09:51 PM ET by Brian P
Ok, it's been asked before and answered before. But this is one of those questions that deserves constant attention, IMO - so let's not go archive searching. Let's discuss.
I certainly agree with those who speak of craftsmanship - not cutting corners - doing it right, etc. But let's not forget design. A poorly designed home cannot be fine, IMO, no matter how much effort, care or money is put into the finishing of the structure.
To me, a well designed home has just as much space as the family needs, and no more. It follows the landscape, captures the outdoors, lets in light, and is reasonably kind to the environment. It has enough personal design touches to appeal to the original owners and enough timelessness to appeal to future owners 100 years later.
Finally - as an homage to my "neighborhood" thread - a fine home does not turn it's back on it's neighborhood (assuming there are neighbors). It tries to fit in - to welcome others to walk by, and maybe even be bold enough to walk up to the front door, ring the bell and say "welcome to the neighborhood".
I didn't mean search instead of discuss. Just as a reference to additional comments. I didn't have time earlier and this is a worthwhile enough topic for thinking before commenting.
To me, fine is one step away from exquisite.
It means going one step further than the customer expects - in quality, in timing, and in researching the solutions to the problems that come up to find or develope the best solution available for them.
Breaktime is a great source for that research, along with a few others.
It means listening to the customer. Not only to what he says but to what he speaks from his heart sometimes without words.
It means keeping the vision on days when all is going wrong.
It means being the standard to which others are compared, or that they compare themselves to you and your work..
Excellence is its own reward!
I think that everyone here has the right idea on fine homebuilding. Can't argue with doing the best job with what you have to work with . Even if it is v#### siding. If you are there to do a job do it right the first time .
"I didn't have time earlier and this is a worthwhile enough topic for thinking before commenting."
Excellent point.
"To me, fine is one step away from exquisite."
Te me "exquisite" implies expensive and I don't think fine refers to price, at least not directly. Also - that seems to imply there is something better that fine. I'm not sure how a home could exceed "fine" without becoming excessive. To me, excess is every bit as much of a detriment to fine as an open joint or squaky floors or whatever. Like seeing garish jewelrey or makeup on a woman who would have been beautiful without it.
I think you misunderstand my use of the word exquisite.
let me give an example.
I put up some 7" crown with attendant trims. My first piece looked garish and clumsy. It did the room no favors. I stopped the work and had the guys go to sopmething else while I studied it. I also called the interior designer who had specified it. he suggested altering the angle at which it adressed the ceiling by a few degrees.
Voila!
That minor adjustment made alll the difference in the world in how it reflected the light back to the inhabitants of the room. what had been flat and clumsy - a wall flower at the ball, Frumpy Frau - became Le Bonne Fille! The long legged dancing princess. It made the room happen.
A hack would have just nailed it up according to directions and specifications. A fine buiolder took a minute or sixty to analyse the problem and find a solution.
Fine or exquisite - I don't care what you call it - it's doing justice to the job and making it a pleasure to own.
part of what makes it right is that a homne is not just a shelter but a fulfillment of our fantasies, a place of security, and something that satisfies our senses, vissual, sensory, spacially, and in other ways, we FEEL the place where we are. I design homes that FEEL good to be in. I recently went to a home that I built in about '89 for a meeting. Someone in the group asked, "is it just me, or does this house FEEL GOOD to be in" It was a combination of light flow, artificial lighting, traffic patterns, proportions and balance, materials choices, and innumberable other items woven together. I was responsible for only a third of those things but I was the conductor who wove them all together. It involves having a total vision of the end product and paying attention to the minutest of details both to make it all happen..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The long legged dancing princess."
You are a poet :-)
I understand. Good work.
I'd prefer "artist"
It covers both the work and the words.
Thanks.
Excellence is its own reward!
I would add to what Piffin said, that a fine home will strike you right away as something that people took the time and trouble to do right!! Some times, even if a home is a style I don't like, or in an area that is not a favorite, you still walk up saying WOW. Not from size, or marble entry, or whatever garish thing you see, but just because all the pieces fit. Hard to describe, but obvious when seen and felt. In my book, Exquisite trumps Fine, but not by much.
Dan
"In my book, Exquisite trumps Fine, but not by much."
It might be silly to get sidetracked by a word, but I'm quite satisfied with "fine". If you want to call something "finer" so be it. I have a friend who was having her bath redone and debating with her husband what kind of sink to install. He wanted some sort of hand hammered copper and she said "that's pretty, but I don't want something so precious looking that I feel like I'm defacing it by spitting my toothpaste into it every morning."
Everything feels perfect in my idea of a fine home. But in my idea of a fine home you also feel comfortable "living" in the most mundane sense of the word. You don't walk around on eggshells in fear of defacing the work of art.
Thanks for the great responses!
While I agree with just about everything said, the thing that I struggle with is that I feel "quality" building should be expected. (cutting corners is equally unacceptable on a vinyl siding installation and a coffered ceiling job) This expectation often leaves me wondering what separates "fine" building.
I like the idea of personalized building. Piffin said in another thread that good design goes along way. That statement resonates with me. I also feel that siting a house and treating a lot in the best possible way is ultimately important and is too often neglected.
CAG's sentiments are well received, but again I expect professionalism. I know everyone here prides themselves on their work, there must be more hacks out there than I care to believe.
Brian P.
It's my job!
Edited 5/22/2003 10:27:50 AM ET by Brian P
"CAG's sentiments our well received, but again I expect professionalism. I know everyone here prides themselves on their work, there must be more hacks out their than I care to believe"
Not exactly "fine" editing <G> Please don't take offense, just couldn't pass up the chance for a little good natured ribbing.
Ouch!
None taken.
Thank heaven for copy editors, or I might be out of a job. Just my luck, my spelling and grammatical deficiencies all seem to elude spel chek. <G>
Cheers.
Brian P.It's my job!
"CAG's sentiments our well received, but again I expect professionalism. I know everyone here prides themselves on their work, there must be more hacks out their than I care to believe."
Is this some Shakespearian double-talk? Maybe King Prospero?
~Peter, the former accidental janitorView Image
Come on we are not talking fine editing here . Don't be picking on Brian for using the wrong words . If he was talking to you you would not know that he misspelled / used the wrong word.
Don,
I was just following up on Mugsy's post .35 and, as he said, "Not exactly "fine" editing <G> Please don't take offense, just couldn't pass up the chance for a little good natured ribbing."
By the way, my concept of Fine HomeBuilding is one word: Quality.
~Peter the former "Best Entertainment Section Editor of the Year" for the year in which I was entertainment editor.No rainchecks. Subject to stock on hand. Not responsible for typographical errors. This message uses 100% recycled electrons and fat free, low sodium pixels.
Same here . It went right over my head till you guys pointed it out. Went back and re read his post , then made sure that I had dotted my Is and crossed my Ts.
I like your answer. About the stripper, Ah... I mean dancer. geez i'm always getting them confused lmao.
Where there's A wheel there's a way, got any wheels?
Edited 5/19/2003 7:44:40 PM ET by MuleSkinner
Unfortunately, cutting corners seems to be the standard in many places, especially in spec developements. One reason I stay in custom work..
Excellence is its own reward!
That sink example is a great demonstration of the things we are talking about. I once had to redesign a half bath in under a stairwell to accomadate a $3000 sink and cherry vanity. In a nicer bathroom, it would have been nice, but it was a waste of money for this little powder room just to be ostentacious..
Excellence is its own reward!
This is what gets me...a $3,000.00 sink in a little half bath under a stairway. WHY? Okay I know that they can do whatever they want. It is their home. BUT why a $3,000.00 sink? BTW very nice job. Maybe I am jealous...have to think about that one.Tamara
You are jealous because she has a sink in the guest/public powder room.
You want to know why she did it?
The photo 36 below shows the $250 shell sink she used in her master bathroom where no-one will see it. ( well I guess that's not true now, is it?)
So put those three facts together for comnparison and shake them up for a minute and see what kind of conclusion you come up with for an answer to your question why.
See #14 below to see what else went with that expensive sink, the whole thing that was originally a simple small pedestal and mirror over, plus moving a door and plumbing to accomadate it all.
Ostentacious is the word I choose for what I think NannyGee was thinking for exquisite. I like exquisite but osty is nothing but vanity..
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin
You want to see ostentatacious?
There is not one but two of these in this master bath! We built these and I would hate to tell you what they cost.
mediterranean ancestry there?.
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin
Kinda looks that way but they bought some antiques in Euro and we made these vanities to look like them. The whole house has a mideval look to it, sorta castle like?
I guess if ya got the money you can have whatever your heart desires.
Doug
Sometimes, that kind of thing can ruin a fine house. Try to design it with integrity and they want a little of Sweden because they went there once, and a little of Japan because they have a nephew there who sends them all kinds of things, and then their bes friend from Indioa dies and leaves them all kinds of Hindii stuff so they feel emotionally obliged to keep it and make it part of their house and then it haas become so eclectic that when the neighbor stops by and asks "What style is that anyway" you choke on trying to keep from laughing in puzzlement..
Excellence is its own reward!
Was the 3K for the whole 1/2 bath job, or just the vanity & sink material? In any case, it sounds too showy and too 'spensive for me.
Contrary to what it must sound like, I try not to dwell on how other people spend their money. But there seems to be a line in there somewhere that people cross. If someone wants a $400 special sink instead of a $40 HD one, I can understand that choice. The $400 one will look nicer, last longer and help make it a fine home. But if the person has their eye on a $1000 sink (or more) I start getting these visions of people starving in Africa. I can't help it. I guess I'm just a bleeding heart liberal.
Like I said, the stinkin' SINK cost three grand. Then, to make it look like it belonged there, the vanity selection with med cabinet and re building the room probably ran into another three grand on top of that.
I didn't mind any of that, except for the fact that her husband was standing around complaining all the while about how expensive this house was getting to be..
Excellence is its own reward!
Maybe it's just me, but that sink is TOO LOUD.
I wouldn't want it in my house if it was a gift. But, that's just me.
The bathroom looks great. As does the one upstairs. Actually the one upstairs looks better w/o that LOUD sink. You do nice work.
Oh, you can't blame the husband for complaining. Probably the only say he had in the job. She got to decide what to do, and how to do it. He got to gripe about how much it cost. Typical division of labor.
Once when he was gone and she was making an expensive choice about something, I asked her, "what will _____ think about that?"
She said, "Don't worry about that honey, it's just his retirement money. He can always work another year."
I went home from that one with alarm bells ringing in my head. Got paid promptly for everything. Last time I saw him, he said he was thinking about retireing soon..
Excellence is its own reward!
"Don't worry about that honey, it's just his retirement money. He can always work another year."
Ha. Somehow I knew that was how that house worked. Too funny.
Just curious, would you want that sink in your house? I just tore some wallpaper out of my bedroom that looked about like that. Sooooooooo much nicer without it.
my wife knows she better keep her return receipt if she brings anything that gaudy home..
Excellence is its own reward!
Whew, you redemed my faith in you. I didn't think you could possibly not find that sink gaudy, but. . . . when you didn't say anything. . .
The huge flowers just remind me of my house. The lady who built it loved roses. Just overdid them somewhat.
Here's a picture of our main bathroom. Gonna get around to redoing it one of these days. Maybe this winter.
Pink sink, tub, and toliet gonna go. Real heavy ceiling type texture on all the walls gonna go. Pretty rose tiles around the top of the sink, but way overdone, I may try to save a few for accents. If the same guy hung them as did the tile shower, many will have hardly any thinset on them. Right now there's a solid row of them above the counter, and 4 rows high all around the tub. Way too much in those doses. 5 or 6 strategically placed may look good.
Guess I'll get to see how well a cast iron tub comes apart with a sledge hammer.
Guess I'll get to see how well a cast iron tub comes apart with a sledge hammer.
If you're looking for some one who can swing a sledge ask for Jencar. She's one mean dudette when it comes to sledge's. I've seen pics of her in action. <g>If at first you don't succeed...try again! After that quit! No sense being a dam fool about it! W.C.Fields
Yeah, I saw those pictures too. If I didn't like to break things so much I'd invite her over to break the tub up. That's ok, she's welcome if all she does is pick up the pieces.<G>
Maybe I should stop disagreeing with her politics. Could be dangerous.<G>
> Like I said, the stinkin' SINK cost three grand.
And I bet the next owner will rip it out and sell it in a yard sale for under ten bucks.... ;-)
-- J.S.
Wanna guess where I got the ash countertop the hole is cut into?
It was from a demo on another job I had done. I knew I would find it a home someday..
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
I've been following this for a while and thought I'd add my thoughts. There is a saying that a professional is one who does what is exactly right whether anyone is watching or not. Another says a professional is one who does what he does with joy, and the intent to do it better each subsequent time.
I think there are two elemments to FINE. The first has to do with design. We used to say, "you can't polish sh-t." If the architectural and detail design isn't there, there is little left to do. But, in all other respects, we all should know the best possible way to do it. How would you build it for your mother or sister?.
A last element to this is: YOu must select your clients. If they don't appreciate excellence, you can't possibly deliver it.
If one believes himself in the upper tier of his profession, then he can't work for the lower tier. You must learn how to present yourself to the clients who appreciate and value what you do.
Of this I know, from my own profession.
Stef
Good thought s for focus.
Now let's take it a step futher. You have suggested that I should be more pro-active in finding just the right clients to suit me. I agree.
Thus far, it has been my mode to let them find me and I do my best to weed out the losers by instinct. I do trust my instincts pretty well because they have served me well about 90% of the time and are getting more refined as I go along.
But what suggestions do you have for selecting all winners, all the time, pro-actively? I'm all ears here..
Excellence is its own reward!
"a fine home does not turn it's back on it's neighborhood (assuming there are neighbors). It tries to fit in"
NanneyGee,
I couldn't agree more. New homes going in all around me. Check out the all concrete "spec home." Any idea why it was (still might be?) on the market for two years. All pics are in the same cul de sac.
Jon
Thanks for the photos.
At first glance they look like nice homes. Then you see the total lack of vegitation & trees (do you suppose any builder ever devoted as much as 1% of the project cost to plantings? imagine what an improvement that would be!). Then you notice that the lots are large and featureless. Then you notice that the facades are just that - facades - like a bit of theater scenery - sort of vaguely like a classic design - but more like a charicature of one.
Then you notice that the facades are just that - facades - like a bit of theater scenery
Quite. And, far too often, the labor and materials for the facade (or more properly, façade) have eaten into the budget that the only interior details are sheetrock returns and slapped-together, cheap mouldings. Another façade all to common is in the cabinetry; it will all be outside. Open up the "face frame" cabinets only to find an "applied" frame tacked on the 5/16 or 3/8 'frameless' carcass underneath.
The point on landscaping is all too true, too. When I was working in the biz, the "talking point" was that landscaping ought to be about 10% of the value of the house. I'm guessing (hoping, too) that there is not $22K worth of landscaping in any of thouse pictures (and if those are 1/3 or 1/2 mill houses, instead, I really don't want to know . . . )
"Then you see the total lack of vegitation & trees (do you suppose any builder ever devoted as much as 1% of the project cost to plantings? imagine what an improvement that would be!)."
NannyGee,
Unfortunately, out in these parts, way too many people don't place much value on landscaping. Just part of the culture out here. Compound that with DIY attitudes of so many, and it explains why so many "mature" subdivisions still have minimal landscaping. The HO's stretched themselves financially for their "dream house" and now work so much they don't have the time to complete what they saw could supposably be done in a weekend on TV.
As an aside, the future Mother-in-law is really into landscaping. She had a small lake home with a deep lot ~200' from house to lake dropping ~ 40', with many terraces full of perennials. Probably $10K worth. Absolutely spectacular. Last spring she sold the place to a doctor just as the plants started coming up. He saw pics from the previous summer, but she was told he could care less about all the meticulous landscaping, (his way of getting her down on the price?). So the day before the closing we dug up about 90% up, put them in a temporary garden. Guess where they are going to go in now.
Hint, terraces are in my future.
Jon
Edited 5/20/2003 8:45:22 AM ET by WorkshopJon
Here's a bit of human psychology to chew on...
My home town (quaint & historic, pop. 9,000) experienced a fairly devistating tornado five years ago. Destroyed about 10% of the town & severely damaged another 40-50%, including just about every tree more than 10' tall in town.
As one might expect, insurance kicked in and folks started rebuilding right away. Within two years there was no sign on any structure that there had ever been a tornado, but there were still no trees to be seen above rooflines (they did plant several thousand small trees - so the future is set). When folks talk about the condition of the town's recovery everyone says something like "...yea, but I sure miss the trees"
Now consider the suburban development 10-20 years old and still almost completely void of trees. Point that out to someone and more likely than not they'll just shrug their shoulders as if you were some kind of rabid environmentalist or something.
Go figure.
Edited 5/20/2003 1:15:48 PM ET by NannyGee
Painfully clear why the homes shown on your post are still for sale ... not enough gables!
Seriously, though, imagine if the contractor of the "house of seven gables" had dispensed with a few of them (talking gables here), perhaps extended some overhangs, did away with the grandiose 25-foot entry porticos, and put the money where it would have created some curb appeal. In three simple words ...
LAND - SCAP - ING!!
Nothing can turn a structure into a wart on the face of the earth like having no transition from two stories to a flat lot. Much easier to roll out the sod and drive away, but a tasteful, sensitive job of landscaping, to create a soft transition from vertical to horizontal, may have put some money in the contractor's pocket long ago.Formerly BEMW at The High Desert Group LLC
LAND - SCAP - ING!!
Nothing can turn a structure into a wart on the face of the earth like having no transition from two stories to a flat lot.
Bruce,
One thing I have discovered out here is that landscapers truly cater to the non-DIY types who are clueless and wealthy. Can't tell you how many calls I had to make, and the absurdly high quotes I got to do rough grading not too long ago. Even with a referral. Finally got a one man operation (old gentleman who raised trees and was an artist with a skid loader) who came out for less than a third of what the "pro's" wanted to charge.
I agree that what lanscapers charge is for the most part nuts, and the business is populated by (between the truly professional ones), by wannabes with a flatbed and a shovel. Hmm, not too much different from "contractors" locally, except they have a pickup, a dog, and a cell phone.
I am faced with a difficult lot to finish on the next project, and after getting a few quotes, the landscape crew is going to be me and my excavator who, like your one-man show, is a quirky good old boy who is a master of any machine with a blade or bucket, and can listen.Formerly BEMW at The High Desert Group LLC
"after getting a few quotes, the landscape crew is going to be me and my excavator who, like your one-man show, is a quirky good old boy who is a master of any machine"
Bruce,
Just thought I'd post a few pics of my guy in action. Driveway and adjacent to garage was only half the job. Everything all done in a day.
Jon
Pics to follow, (some problem uploading)
Edited 5/20/2003 5:04:33 PM ET by WorkshopJon
One more try...
I don't know why, but I can upload pics, but they don't appear. Anybody have any suggestions?
Thanx,
Jon
Ya, browse, and give the picture time to upload. All of which is a waste is the pic is over 100k in size, but have a blast.
And this whole topic is a waste, anyone that doesn't know what fine homebuilding is, is in the wrong place.
Howz your new job workin out, Brian? Man, I have to buy a book...
"Ya, browse, and give the picture time to upload"
Qtrmeg,
Don't think that's the problem as I have broadband, and can tell from the LED's on the modem when the pic's are done uploading (only takes a second or two). I'm going to try a couple things, but think ones lifetime limit on uploaded pics is ~10MEG. I think I may be close and will have to start deleting some.
Jon
I've been trying to upload a pic to another thread for 2 days ... no go. I wait, and I wait, and I wait. Gotta be on the server end, I think.Formerly BEMW at The High Desert Group LLC
i'm gonna try a real fine homebuilding pic, hope it's vented right<G> EliphIno!
Hey! There went the mouse!
Another try,
Hey it works. OK, this is my grading guy working.
Jon
Looks like a good little project. Isn't it nice when someone just wants to show up and do their work, and do it well?Formerly BEMW at The High Desert Group LLC
Brian P or Andy E,
I can't seem to upload pics anymore. It seems like I have space in my allocated amount of usage, and they seem to upload fine, just don't display. Happened the other day to. Any thoughts?
Jon.
I've got one of the slowest land lines in the whoole world.
Are you waiting for your dialouge upload box to show the name of the file you just uploaded? Their is a lot of interaction between you and the server before it is all done.
Another possibility is whether you might have high security settings on your firewall. I don't know didddly squat about it but logic says this is worth checking..
Excellence is its own reward!
2nd slowest land line...and I waited forever for a lil pic to upload. I agree, the spoiled cable brat didn't wait to get 'spero'd. Until the attachment shows, you don't have an attachment. The space? hmm, he might have run out, I only have like 100 gigs of spero space left. ;-) I pity you people if I live long enough to fill that up.
Qtrmeg,
"I agree, the spoiled cable brat didn't wait to get......"
Jealous?
Or is time not money? 4500KPS burst speeds.
Jon
Ya, I'm jealous, but today has been a bugger, try again...
I'm not kidding, I tried to upload a small file tonight, and it wouldn't finish. It timed out twice, and I gave up.
Qtrmeg,
For the first time, last night as I was posting my last message (was having trouble and it wouldn't post) a "(1)" appeared at the bottom under the error message. ..... Screener?
Jon
Piffin,
I've uploaded pics numerous times. Can't figure out why I can't anymore. Not doing anything different. Tried everything (starting a new thread, rebooting, closing all my "security" programs [Zone Alarm etc]... nothing) So my only thoughts are (1) posted pics someone? thinks I shouldn't have (can't fathom what), and I'm on pic posting probation, or (2) I've filled up my maximum allotment, or (3) there's a problem.
Jon
I am not responding to anyone in particular here. But I have seen it. And I am in full agreement , with a need for higher standards. I know it when I see it.
Fine home building is number of efficienct of systems ,working together to acheive an aesthectically, functioning and desireable end product.
The thing I like about this forum is the exchange of experiences, and ideas. I find it dishearting, when i see the attitude some people show, when some one asks a question about something that doesn't shed water in copper valleys, gutters and spouting. Hey but this is America. Freedom of speech and all that.
There is a lot of first class talent here. However,There are a lot of second class building problems in the world,too. They need first class solutions. I can tell you i won't hesitate to offer anything I can to help, when I feel I have somthing to offer. And I think everyone else does the same.
Here is another one. I wouldn't expect anyone to jump off A bridge if i said so. There you go. Freedom to not do stupid, things. May it always be that way.God help us when only some of us are allowed to think.....God help us.
Fine home building is the culmination of tried and true quality techniques and materials. All of which started from less glamorous beginings. Fine home building is state of the Art.
I wonder how many centuries houses were built from stone before the use of quoins, became the excepted practice. I've seen plenty with out. And yet i know they were used in europe, Well before the first stone home went up here.
Fine Home Building Ain't Pretty, It's serious.
Edited 5/20/2003 7:04:23 PM ET by MuleSkinner
Edited 5/20/2003 7:13:38 PM ET by MuleSkinner
Landscaping!
I couldn't agree more, but then again my experience (before I went to school for English-which seems to have failed me <G>) is in landscape construction--Site work, stone work and large scale planting (big trees), etc.
Who else agrees that landscaping is an important part of home building? Do any of you get involved in landscaping, even if it is to contract the work out?
Brian P.It's my job!
Avoid like the plague: those guys work 16 hour days, 7 days a week, for $8/hour; it'll take years before you see the mature results; and no matter what you create, someone will want it changed..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Phill,
You often say a lot of good stuff, but...with respect to landscaping,
"Avoid like the plague: those guys work 16 hour days, 7 days a week, for $8/hour; it'll take years before you see the mature results; and no matter what you create, someone will want it changed,"
Good ones get paid way more (talking landscapers here, not the hired help) I could make a list a mile long, but I'm not. Sometimes good things take time.
When Frederick Law Olmsted designed Central Park, he planned it how it would look a hundred years later. not for the day.
Jon
OK, is it just me? Just look at the pics. This is going in near me. Comments ANYONE.
Jon
Comments ANYONE
The Central Park design comment leaps to my mind. What will these "gems" look like in 25, 50, or 100 years? Will the Hysterical Preservation Distrikt insist on "preserving" these examples of "historic" architecture? (Will they still be able to get puron to run the a/c systems in a hundred years . . . ?)
May actually be a bad example. There may be some really high quality construction in those houses (the varying pitched gables have to have some "fine" work in them). Do the house have rooms the occupants don't use (like formal living rooms or formal dining rooms)? I'm pretty sure that every one here would agree that "fine" home building does not come down to "I like the red one better than the white one" (that being the only real distinction between them).
Oops, this may stray into the "neighborhoods" thread . . .
"There may be some really high quality construction in those houses (the varying pitched gables have to have some "fine" work in them)..... I'm pretty sure that every one here would agree that "fine" home building does not come down to "I like the red one better than the white one" (that being the only real distinction between them).
Oops, this may stray into the "neighborhoods" thread . . ."
Cap,
You may me right, I might have posted in the wrong folder, but it's so all interrelated as design AND cratfsmanship both need to go in, as well as placement of the former.
Personally, I kinda' like the two houses on the right in the #2 photo. They were the first to go in ~2 years ago when the land was "developed." One thing I have noticed is that the homes that go in last in these new subdivisions are "different" from the originals, and at the same time seem to have a lot more DIY's doing the finishing "touches". like staining and ...um, "landscaping."
Those same homes seem to have had no architect (of any kind) involved, and the HO stretched themselves financially just to buy the land etc. etc.
What I thought was out of place were there red and white ones. The first two seemed to me to have set the standard for the subdivision. The red and white just don't seem to fit.
I might have posted in the wrong folder
Oh, no, not my intention at all--I meant that I was veering closer to the neighborhood discussion than the posted thread. This precisely because of the inter-relatedness of the biz, as you mentioned.
Years spent learning the archy trade make many details "pop out" to me. My only advantage is that I can put a name to some of them. The ones that are missing, are much harder to describe. This is often the case when people talk about design they do not like (like trying to logically prove a negative).
They do 'stick out' for being different. of course, I'd like to think that if I designed or built a house next to them, that people would say "What a nice house; it's a shame those others are next to it." I'd like to think that. I'd like to win the lottery, too :).
workshop...
just curious of the selling prices of those houses, im asumming they are in wisconsin
thanks
"just curious of the selling prices of those houses, im asumming they are in wisconsin"
Oak,
As none are "spec." homes I can't say, I've never been inside any, so I have no idea of the mtrls. used. But, from what I've seen on average the two nicer ones maybe $375K -$500K.
The two lesser ones ? $230K-$290K (red and white respectively).
This is in a middle to upper middle class suburban/rural suburb of Milwaukee, ~22 miles to downtown (lakefront)
Jon
$230K for a large custom ? Even assuming that doesn't include the land, that would be considered a bargain in many locations..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
$230K for a large custom ? Even assuming that doesn't include the land, that would be considered a bargain in many locations.
Phill,
One of the reasons I moved to Wisconsin. Growing up in NY, I thought the prices were nuts ten years ago. They have only gotten worse. My 2400sq. ft. home (plus attached 2.5 car garage atop a hill and on two scenic acres (partially wooded) cost $96K seven years ago. Granted it needed some work, but compared to what stuff costs on the coasts.....Maybe that's why Boeing is considering moving 777 production to Oshkosh, WI.
BTW. That house is mostly garage.
Jon
One of the reasons I moved to Wisconsin. Growing up in NY, I thought the prices were nuts ten years ago. They have only gotten worse. My 2400sq. ft. home (plus attached 2.5 car garage atop a hill and on two scenic acres (partially wooded) cost $96K seven years ago. Granted it needed some work, but compared to what stuff costs on the coasts.....Maybe that's why Boeing is considering moving 777 production to Oshkosh, WI.
Jon
It is true about the prices here on LI NY but its also all relative.
What you can earn here is far more than in Wisconsin.
I almost fell offa my seat when I saw the prices you listed.....not so much because of how cheap those houses were but because what could the trades have charged?
Those houses if across the street from me would be at least triple the cost.
Its really all relative I spose.
By the way.....nice meeting you and yer brother......I think I've only met one other BT'er. Your real good people!!!!!
Be well
Namaste
andy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy,
I'm finally back in WI. Thanks again for the tour, If you are ever in WI, maybe I can return the favor.
I remember when I was at the stage you are at now (With renovation). I still can't believe you have the desire and energy to do it all again. From your plans it should be a terrific house when done though.
In response to your comment,
"it is true about the prices here on LI NY but its also all relative.
What you can earn here is far more than in Wisconsin."
I have to say yes an no. In my particular field of work I earn about the same as out East. Most trades earn ~25% less. Government workers (police, clerks etc. about 35 %). Not enough to account for the huge price differences in real estate.
Some building mtrls. are cheaper. Good (premium grade) 2x4's are ~$1.88, and drywall (last time I purchased some a few months ago) $2.90 a sheet. Gravel ~$5.00 ton (u-haul from local quarry)
I think out East (and West) there are just lots of super high income earners who jack up the price of homes. There are not too many 6+$figure people out here. I know down the road from my brother there is a family where there are 2 cops (husband and wife) makin' over $150K a year (combined).
But winters out here are REALLY BAD.
Jon
Jon
Was real nice meeting you as well as your brother.
Far as doing another house again....well its what just might be keeping me young although I'll find out after this one.
Just got a 40'x8'x8' metal storage container delieverd yesterday. Gonna pack all the tools and stuff from that addition on my house that I'll be knocking down into it.....ugh.
Anyway stay in touch
andy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I think the question/point may have been lost. No matter how much some landscape architects or owners of landscaping firms may earn; per the question, I don't work for them for what they'll pay nor do I try to compete with them by hiring some minimum-wage grunts..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
I design mostly commercial projects but a good programing question I like to ask before I begin to design a building is, "what kind of personality do you want this building to have?" Personality is derived from the entire mass of a structure all the way down to the color selections. Once I know the personality I'm shooting for I can design a stately and aloof queen or a kindly grandmother that loves to sit and play with her grandchildren in the kitchen. Both can be a fine home if they are correctly designed.
However, lots of people who really want a timeless, beautiful and faithful wife of a house end up designing and building a cheap floozy with a bunch of gaudy makeup to cover her flaws that will never live up to her promises. Folks can spend a lot of money on her but they will never have a home they will love for the rest of their lives.
To me a fine home is real. It has a face that makes you smile, it hugs you when you get home, it caters to you as you interact with it, it surprises you in a nice way every once in a while and it protects you without fail.
A fine home is not stuck up and pretentious though it is beautiful beyond description. As it grows old it becomes a sage that the younger generation of homes defer to in their design. It sits on the land in the shade of ancient trees holding a bouquet of flowers picked from the fields around it. It does not plow those trees and fields flat and build an elevated stone pedestal to sit on where it will be sure to be noticed.
Most of all a fine home is a place where fine people live and love and their friends can gather to share the experience of life. Without them, it may be a fine house but it will never be a home. I have been in trailers that felt like finer homes than some of the multi-million dollar mansions I've been in.
Really, it boils down first and foremost to the people who design it, the people who build it and the people who live in it. If all three love it enough to pour their heart into it, it will be obvious even if it's affordable. The personality of all three will be in the place for the life of the structure.
A fine home to me is a friend and family member that needs a fresh coat of paint now and then. I admire many of the same things in my favorite houses that I admire in my favorite people. Both are built about the same way - character and strength at every level, not just the facade.
A "real" fine "home" is pretty easy to spot - It's one that you see and think, "now there is a house I would like to get to know." I generally feel the same way about the people who live there. Their "fine" home says a lot about them that a McMansion could never convey. McMansions are just not "real" enough for such a sophisticated dialog...Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
I can't think of anything I could possibly add to that dissertation. It was beautiful. It was poetry. It was everything I hoped to hear from this discussion.
Thank you.
I couldn't agree more. Seems ready for print to me.
"A completed home is a listed home."
I think landscaping is a majorly important part of homebuilding. It's non-static, always growing, the outer dimension. Who wants a home that's only nice to be IN? Of course, I take all of this back if you're one of those who like to treat their flora like circus poodles<G> EliphIno!
Edited 5/22/2003 8:22:25 PM ET by bucksnort billy
I agree with wrecked about the personality. A home has one. A fine home has a fine personality.
That personality is extended throughout the site through it's landscaping. I believe carrying one or more of the house's building concepts through the landscaping facilitates the process. Like stone or brick retaining walls matching the stone or brick on the house. If it's a framed home, a outdoor structure of sort bearing similar lines to the house.
And once I found a Garden Designer. She was worth every penny. Selected some stunning plants I would have never known about! She brought the home's personality to life.
To me it's a blend of things which can only be assembled by someone of rare talent. Historic nods to architectural styles, keen attention to details for every trade, as stated, the right way as opposed to easy, customary, quick, or least costly, education for those of us willing to listen. Fine homebuilding isn't cookie cutters and rapid developments. It's the techniques and people who still care enough to do the whole thing right from the start.
Many moons ago, Taunton put out a best of remodeled homes book, had about 30 in there. All the remods focused on how well the whole package blended into multiple fronts. Believe it was reprints of past articles. That kind of thing strikes me as what you're about.
The education part too, for what are you if you don't serve to progress the knowlege base? This forum fits there well. Many opportunities to glean info or another way for those willing to listen.
"The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb " lyrics by Roger Waters
I think fine homebuilding is putting a client in a house they feel comfortable and happy with no matter what materials or techniques are used. Sometimes I get overly obsessive ( is that redundant or whut?) about details, and none of it means, or ever will, a whit to the folks that are going to live there. They want something that fits their needs and isn't going to fall down.
Then there is "Finer" homebuilding, where folks spend a ton of money on a lot of stuff they think should make them happy. Or, there's those that just plain want certain things, and can afford them. That's why I love FHB. You guys run the gamut from the beer can house to the 5000 sq' retirement digs. What's happening outside of my world is very neat. EliphIno!
You seem to be the only one here who puts the right of judgement in the correct place, with the customer. No self-righteous crap about only giving people some magic amount of space (as judged by ?), or some particular style of trim or furniture (as judged best by ?), or only using the finest and most expensive materials, or only building an architectural masterpiece (as judged by ?). No, I belive I'm agreeing with you when I say that fine homebuilding is delivering what was requested built the best you can within the constraints presented. When you can do that, you can go home every night with your head up.
Some might even say that delivering more than was expected within the constraints given is truely "fine homebuilding"..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
A "fine" home should keep the elements out, with a minimum of maintanance. Should be easy to heat. Easy to cool. Easy to live in and not beyond the homeowners' financial reach, not so expensive purchase or maintain as to force people to work at unfulfilling jobs just to pay for it.
A "fine" home is first of all a "home". Shelter. A refuge.
"...not so expensive purchase or maintain as to force people to work at unfulfilling jobs just to pay for it."
Very wise. Maybe the biggest unacknowledged problem for folks in home ownership is getting themselves in such a financial pinch that they can never be home to enjoy it.
My idea of fine homebuilding is no matter what the materials, that the materials are used in the correct manner with craftmanship. If you use vinyl flooring, that means invisible seams with the pattern straight along walls and edges. If you use tile, that includes even grout lines, with appropriate colored grout for the tiles used, with the tiles laid out in a pleasing manner to the eye. (evenly cut tiles on the edges if whole tiles can't be used, for instance) Etcetra.
Another aspect of material use, no matter what materials are used, is to use the appropriate materials in conjuction with other materials.
You make a good point - but only if the customer you are serving posesses taste. Without it, no fine home can be built, no matter how dutifully you execute their wishes.
But then who do you get to judge the taste contest ? For example, lots of people in the southern US seem to like "arts & crafts" (sic ?) style homes; most of the people I know around here consider them a butt ugly waste of time and wood..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
"But then who do you get to judge the taste contest ?"
No one needs to be the judge. After all, no one is being punnished, right? I'm just saying a lot of mediocre homes were built for folks who got exactly what they wanted. If that was the qualifier for "fine", then the magazine would feature lots of tract homes - after all a lot of grateful home owners are quite happy with them, sadly.
I think our impasse here is based on our differing interpretations of the phrase "fine homebuilding": IMHO, you are stressing "fine home" while I'm putting the emphasis on "fine building". Still IMHO, some of the finest examples of "fine building" may be the folks who deliver sound, good-qaulity homes within tight budgets and schedules. Also, your are unfairly penalizing the many craftsmen in this forum who only build a piece, or even a piece of a piece of a home. A sound-quality plumbing job is "fine homebuilding" whether it's in a 8000 sq ft custom home or a 1000 sq ft condo town-house..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
I couldn't agree more with the first part.
However, a sound-quality plumbing job is "fine plumbing" - which one should take pride in - but i think it's fair to say fine homebuilding in this context is an all-encompassing thing which involves not only all the trades simultaneously, but also architects, engineers, interior designers, landscapers, homeowners, etc.
By all means, take great pride in whatever role you play.
Perhaps the most important part of being "fine" is being built to last a long time before it needs to be fixed. This means attention to the things that get hidden in the process of construction, like flashing.
It can't be considered "fine" unless nothing leaks, not the roof, not the windows, not the walls, not the plumbing. If structural members get wet, they get eaten up by dry rot and termites, and that's definitely not "fine".
There are certainly things that are better than others. Plywood is better than OSB. EMT is better than Romex. Copper pipe is better than plastic or galvanized. Plaster is better than drywall. EPDM is better than roll roofing. Anything is better than vinyl. The questions to consider are what's necessary and what's sufficient. I don't think that better materials by their mere presence can make a building "fine". They have to be installed correctly.
Can the cheaper materials be used so well that the result is "fine"? Maybe -- The test to apply is whether the building will serve its occupants' needs for a long time without needing additional work. For instance, some of the romex that gets installed today will remain safe and useful 50 years from now. But the galvanized pipe sure won't. If that romex job puts enough circuits to the right places for 50 years, it might well be "fine".
We also have to consider the interaction between components. For instance, a plumbing job might have been "fine" except that it weakened the structure to the point that the floor tile will crack within ten years. The tile job may have been "fine" up to that point, and it's not the tile guy's fault.
Bottom line, it doesn't have to be big, it doesn't have to be fancy, it just has to be built to last. At least that's my opinion.
-- J.S.
The answer is quite simple.
Its like a woman....look at her and you needn't scratch your head. You just say. She looks "fine". No matter if shes white black or purple, or overweight or too skinny (yeh sure lol). Fact is, its what turns you on. Thats what fine is in building as well.
Some like vinyl some like wood..spose its like politics isn't it?
Be fine!
Namaste
andy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Now, that's a fine response. Just as fine as any i've seen.
I love comparing our workmanship to women. Must be why shipbuilders did the same. Sometimes, both are a pain in the side. Adam woke up with a sore rib... Other times, both are a sight for sore eyes..
Excellence is its own reward!
"Fine" homebuilding is designing, planning, and executing a house while keeping in mind the relative inconsequence of the time spent (or saved) in building as compared to the years & decades or time spent enjoying (or suffering with) the result of that work. For someone to go back and fix the cut corners, whether they be due to improper materials, design, or assembly, is so much more costly and time consuming than the first time around, that it's usually not worth it.
My squeaky second floor is probably the result of a couple thousand $ savings in materials (undersized joists, insufficient decking) and a few hours saved when they decided not to glue & screw. I'm not the original owner, but I'd have kicked in the extra $2k in materials, plus beer money for the crew, and knelt on my knuckles for the amount of time saved to have a solid, quiet floor now. And for me to go back and do it now is another matter altogether, and probably just not worth it.
DIY'ers, no matter what else you might say about them, have in mind the ratio of time spent building vs time spent enjoying... that's why everything takes them so long to finish... lol
For me it really has nothing to do with spending money,
I'm trying to be tight but wise.. For example I used trees that were well over 200 years old in some cases.. a wise use of resorces demands that the house I build last well over 200 years so replacement trees have a chance to grow..
It's using stainless steel connectors to ensure that there isn't a reaction between the white oak/ black walnut and steel. Sure it might take well over 200 years to fail if steel was used but just by shopping I was able to purchase hardened stainless steel lag bolts for the same price I would have paid for regular steel.
By buying locally I was able to purchase decay resistant woods for much less then I could have bought pressure treated wood, or the typical plywood used in homes etc.. The energy not used to transport lumber around the country is a consideration as is the suitablity of the local product for the local climate.. If I lived in the dry southwest I would build with adobe or elsewhere with stone..
By super insulating a home in the northern climates I insure that future generations will be able to afford to heat it. Thus ensuring the value to future generations.. SIPS may not be the fastest way to build or the cheapest but the energy efficency of them is worth the added time involved..
Instead of banging together some 2x4's and covering them with sheetrock/ plastic siding, I used care to assemble the frame and as a result will have a home that will not need to be remodled to suit the whim of the next style to come along..
I may not have a central vacum cleaner or the latest computer controlled sytem, yet the fundamentals are there to incorporate them whenever really needed..