Replies

1. 
   Gabe_Martel | Sep 25, 2000 02:44am | #1

   *
   Dave,

   Do you have any windows in this addition? If so, can you install heating in the window sill? Another way would be to have one of your cabinets faces customized to a grill????

   You can get radiant heat tubing in 1/4", if you want, but I don't know if they would be efficient enough.

   The regular heating guys will probably offer other ideas soon,

   Gabe

   BTW sounds like quiet a project....you must be in the market for another ragtop and you're laying butter down early.....

1. 
   FredB | Sep 25, 2000 06:27pm | #2

   *Just how cold does it get where you are and for how long? I can think of a couple possible solutions. But I doubt they would work in Edmonton, for example.

1. 
   drptop70ss_ | Sep 26, 2000 02:00am | #3

   *Actually, this is the easy part..the last 2 years I spent changing my 1 1/2 story cape into a full size colonial..added 18 feet to the length, the full 2nd story, full length front porch, etc..I did everything from excavation up, only thing I paid to have done was the central A/C. So now the wife gets her kitchen to match all the new stuff in the rest of the house. As far as the kitchen, there are 2 windows, one is (2)24"x32", other is a single 24"x32". (2) 60"x24" skylights also. Heating season is from around october to mid march, and temp can go as low as 0 degrees, but usually not for long. There is a full basement under the kitchen including the new section. There will be heat moving into the area from the old section of kitchen, which has about 13' of slantfin. So I could either go with something that would tie into the existing heat loop, or go with radiant and pull the slantfin out of the kitchen. I like the idea of running 1/2" radiant tubing in between 3/4" sleepers, with a backer board over the sleepers. This height would not be a problem, but I dont know if a backer board is strong enough to use alone without a backing over the sleepers. Also, I still need to learn what I need to tie radiant into my existing system, I have sent for some info on that. Since I have never experienced RFH, do they lend theirself to a system like this? The heat does cycle on and off by the thermostat, would a tile floor retain enough heat that it wouldnt get cold between cycles? I am still learning, but you guys are a great help...I knew nothing about construction 5 years ago, but figuring how much it costs to pay a pro made me learn fast! Dave

1. 
   Steve_Zerby | Sep 26, 2000 02:04am | #4

   *Dave,I was going to do radiant in my kitchen, but after all the cabinetry was in place I didn't have enough floor space to get enough btu's through the wood floors without supplementing with radiant ceilings.I opted for toe kick heaters with fans. They work well, and I've set them up so I can get at the fans and replace them if they burn out. Only one drawback, and it's a big one: the fans are quite noisey. I try to always keep a wood-stove fire going so that zone will be overridden by the woodstove and the fans don't kick in. But they do keep it from getting cold overnight when the fire burns out.In your case, radiant under tile, you shouldn't have any problem getting enough heat if the house is relatively tight. I don't know about the floor height issue. That's just something you would have to decide if you could live with. It's certainly done often enough for it not to seem too clumsy to the average consumer. But I don't know how fussy you are. I know I don't like changes in floor level.Steve

1. 
   drptop70ss_ | Sep 26, 2000 02:52am | #5

   *Steve,do you know approx how many BTUs of output from these fan heaters are needed per square foot? Just an idea so I could figure how many units I would need if I went that way. Also, are the fans triggered off the zone valve, so they only come on when the heat is on? I am wondering if I could quiet the fans by enclosing them some how, but I suppose that would lower their effeciency. As for the floor height, after going down to the original 3/4 subfloor, I can go up another 1 1/2" and be level with the entry ways from the other rooms. Does anyone know if 1/2" hardibacker board is strong enough to use over sleepers without a plywood backing? If I need a backer the floor height would be too high, and will need to go some other way. thanks,Dave

2. 
   The_Tennis_Court_Builder_...on_t | Sep 26, 2000 04:52am | #6

   *Radiant heat can also be placed in walls or ceilings...In ceilings it feels strange at first but is very toasty...near the stream,ajI would prefer the warm tile floor and I also do not like how loud the squirral fans are..I put one in the first home I built for a customer and I pulled it out myself before they even heard it run because it was just too noisey.near the stream,aj

3. 
   FredB | Sep 26, 2000 07:28pm | #7

   *Have you considered using a heat exchanger in the basement with forced air outlets in the toe kicks? I've used central forced air in this situation and it works great. Since you don't have central you can convert in the basement. Lots of pluses to this. Fan noise is out of the kitchen, installation is easy, everything is easy to get at for repairs and the cost wouldn't be any higher than going radiant.Besides it is rather neat to have a warm breeze on the tootsies on a crisp morning.

4. 
   Mike_Smith | Sep 26, 2000 09:21pm | #8

   *toe-space heaters work great and are a great compliment to your existing hot-water heat.... we use one in almost every house.. we've never had a complaint about noise.. so there must be different mfrs...get the sone rating and compare them...

5. 
   Bob_Livingston | Sep 26, 2000 10:36pm | #9

   *Any opinions on who makes good residential air handlers (likely attic or crawl space installations).

6. 
   Steve_Zerby | Sep 27, 2000 08:21pm | #10

   *Dave,I think I used two 13000 btu units for my 300 sf kitchen. But you would have to do a real heat-loss calculation based on your particular situation for any really relevant number for your kitchen. So many variables affect how many btu's you need ie: how much window area, what type of windows, how much exterior wall surface, whether there is heated space above, etc.Mike,The brand I've used is Toester by Turbosonics, Inc.I don't know if they are overly loud for toe-kick heaters, I'm just very sensitive to the noise. I don't like listening to forced air heat either, or the wall oven fan (which always seems to finally cut off just as I'm finishing my dinner)Steve

7. 
   drptop70ss_ | Sep 27, 2000 10:49pm | #11

   *Steve, Thanks for the info. I am going to go to the local plumbing supply house, there are some good guys there that can do the heat loss calculation. Ill go from there..it would be much easier to go with the toe kick fan units, but I really wonder how cold that large of a tile floor will be during the winter, and I am sure radiant could take care of that. Ill see what they recommend based on the calculations. Thanks again for the opinions, if I go with the fan units I will be sure to listen to them run before purchase.Dave

8. 
   Mike_Smith | Sep 27, 2000 11:25pm | #12

   *steve.. i can't remember the mfr.. they had two basic sizes.. and it's the same brand i've seen for twenty years..very quiet. the plumber supplies them so i don't have the lit.and all the documents i did have are with the owners now...

9. 
   Mongo_ | Sep 28, 2000 08:06am | #13

   *Cabinets do rob a kitchen of much usable floor space for possible RFH BTU gain. Usually (not knowing your heat loads) you'll need 5/8ths-inch tubing as a minimum.Have you considered a RFH staple-up, stapling the PEX to the underside of the ply underlayment? Doesn't cost you any floor height and it works quite well, especially under tile which has a lower R-value than hardwood.

10. 
    drptop70ss_ | Sep 29, 2000 02:49am | #14

    *I just received my literature today from radintec, I may be considering the PEX for under the floor with the aluminum reflectors. Only problem is getting around existing wiring and plumbing on the original section of the kitchen, which makes the above subfloor install possibly a better option. I will see exactly how much of a floor height raise I can have once I get the original kitchen floor up. Ill post what I decide to go with. Thanks,Dave

11. 
    Jerry | Oct 08, 2000 06:24am | #15

    *Dave,If you really can't do underfloor radiant look at Climate Panel by Stadler. http://www.stadlercorp.com/product.html The idea is good but somewhat limiting as far as layout. I've heard it's also expensive. I had wondered why I couldn't efficiently duplicate the system myself, allowing more customization, then I saw some pictures from a guy who had done just that. He posted them on Dan Holohan's site, http://www.heatinghelp.com and he had done a beautiful and simple job. You may want to post there and ask to see his pictures (sorry, I don't remember his name, but I think he's a regular). Using this option you would only raise your floor height about 5/8" with 1/2" PEX.Jerry

12. 
    Jerry | Oct 31, 2000 06:11am | #16

    *Dave,I'm sure it's too late since this thread died a while ago but I came across some of the pictures on Holohan's web site (referenced above). Maybe you or someone else could benefit in the future. This picture is before the plywood strips:

13. 
    Jerry | Oct 31, 2000 06:12am | #17

    *This one is during HW install; you can see the strips between the PEX. I think this guy did a beautiful job.

14. 
    Jerry | Oct 31, 2000 06:13am | #18

    *And done...

15. 
    Art_B | Oct 31, 2000 03:14pm | #19

    *drptop70ss:Somewhat unrelated to this thread, but as one 100% DIY to another -- Re: "only thing I paid to have done was the central A/C". If you want to do yr own HVAC also but haven't due to refrigerant being sold only to certified techs, you can get certified for $20 on the net by taking a very simple 20 question multiple choice open book test(mostly on EPA rules and regs). (e.g. see IMACA web site). If you did your own car AC before 1992 your equipment is "grand fathered", especially if the work you do is only on your own stuff.

2. 
   drptop70ss_ | Oct 31, 2000 03:17pm | #20

   *
   I am adding a 10x22 area to my existing 12x12 kitchen, with the new section crossing the old making a "T" shape, the new section being the top of the "T". Plans are for cabinets to be on all 3 walls of the new section, so adding slantfin to my existing loop doesnt look easy. I thought of putting radiant in the whole floor, which is going to be done in tile, but it would end up raising the kitchen floor above the adjoining room floors. I have heard about small "radiators" that could mount under the cabinets, and have a fan to blow air out through the kickplate, that I could tie into my existing loop. Does anyone have any ideas? I just wonder how long a fan would live running all winter, in a probably dusty area. Is RFH tubing available in smaller than 1" sizes, say 1/2" or 3/4"?
   Dave