Has anyone ever figured what makes a carpenter? I have friends in the trades and some are more easily defined plumbers,electricians,etc.. After tralking to drywallers cabinet installers(not makers) and framers, are there any carpenters left out there?Everybody seems to be specialized and when I try to find someone to help me they want the top dollar but “don’t do that when asked to do the lesser things like dig or pick up after they finish.
Whatever happened to the guys who did everything from frame to finish,drywall paint?
Replies
"Whatever happened to the guys who did everything from frame to finish,drywall paint? "
They changed their names to remodelers.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
"They changed their names to remodelers."
Maybe, but around here we call them out of work Mack truck or Beth Steel guys. Unless of course you mean do everything well. Not sure if there are any of those around.
Yeah, it got bad when the "steel" shut down. I was there. Mack bailed to SC quite awhile B4 IIRC.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
When my Middle daughter was born I was traveling to the Far hills N.J area every day. She was sick and we were lucky she lived. My insurance company wouldn't cover her, they cancelled my whole family. Plus, my wife needed me home more to help with everything that was going on.
I had an interview with a pretty reputable builder in the Saucon Valley area (Starts with a B). After we talked for an hour he said he would call me. He did. Told me he was excited to be able to hire someone with my experience level as he needed someoen who could jump right in and run a crew for him. Then he made his offer,$12.50 an hour. At the time I was making over $20. I told him so and he told me he had guys who had worked for him for 20 years who didn't make $13.50 so I should be happy. Keep in mind this was using all my own tools and truck. I'm sure you can imagine what i told him
I know all to well, I was there till '94 and split. Lived over in Zionsville. Saucon valley CC was just going in.I had guys from the steel building guitars in Coopersburg..most lost their pensions, had no choice.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
I was in Emmaus. Now I'm in upper Macungie township. Know where the Sunset Grill is?
Not sure about the Sunset grill, it's been awhile since I was back. Off Rt.100? I was close to Limeport and Powder Valley did a lot of work in that area.Ate at the Emmaus diner at least 3x a week..had a shop off Tilghman St ( Lehigh Valley Woodcrafters) geeze, that seems like another life time ago.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
We have carpenter and cabinetmaker trades training to journeyman status, BUT!..... I don't think the majority are worth a damn. They would only be considered full carpenters if they were lucky enough to have worked for company(s) that provide all-around opportunities/training.
Unfortunately most companies here are so specialized, with limited skill set requirements/training ,like "joisters",framers,trimmers,sheathers,and other "skills"... that the kids(and not so young) DON'T get the full spectrum of skills available.
I have been lucky enough to (in my opinion) become a journeyman the original way,....journeying through most of the conventionally traditional trades/skills ,framing,finishing,cabinetmaking,boatbuilding,timber and log framing,furniture/joinery,(even custom private jet interiors)and others, that I can consider myself to be a traditional "carpenter" and all that that used to imply.
'I've no desire to hang around with a bunch of upper-class delinquents, do twenty minutes' work and then spend the rest of the day loafing about in Paris drinking gallons of champagne and having dozens of highly experienced French peasant girls galloping up and down my - hang on...' "Black Adder" (Rowan Atkinson)
robert,
I was at Mr. "B"s house two years ago on a house tour.
don't know if you have seen it.....but wow.
now I understand how the game is played.....
carpenter in transition
What area are you working in Tim?
just down the road, buddy,
http://www.butz.com/
just down the road........
carpenter in transition
How is it working for Butz? What do you do there?
It's great. It is still a family run corporation with about 150 people. I will be there 20 years next week. I am a project manager in the Property Damage and Restoration Division. We specialize in insurance related repair work which is heavily residential. The company is primarily geared towards large scale commercial construction work with project sizes nearing $100,000,000.
Our division, nicknamed the 'Fire Crew' has about 15-20 people and does about $5M per year. I was a union carpenter for 17 years before I decided to try wearing a necktie every day. It's quite a change.
http://www.butz.com/repair.htm
The owner of our company is a great man to work for. He is understanding, approachable, always at ease, a great salesman, and extremely generous. His interest in achieving the highest quality possible on every job makes him unusual in the field. I consider myself lucky to have this opportunity.
carpenter in transition
Not like the Other "B". didn't you guys do some new residential? I thought I remember seeing a bUtz sign across from the Wegmans on the west end of Allentown.
that would be the 'Trexler Estates' development of which you speak.
yes, Alvin Butz was the developer, but no so much the(a) builder in the development. we did build one or two custom homes in the development none
carpenter in transition
My mentor was a carpenter.We would literally take days digging the footer,making sure the ditches were squared,batter boards and everything.Would stay on the house til finished.
When I moved up here and watched back-hoes digging footings while cement trucks were pouring...wow.Whole different world.
Another spin on this topic: are transmission mechanics not mechanics? Or do they have to know everything from brakes to rear-end repair?
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
Another spin on this topic: are transmission mechanics not mechanics? Or do they have to know everything from brakes to rear-end repair?
lol another spin, Is a Knee Replacement Surgeon not a doctor.... actually he is more of one. GPs barely made it through Med school.
Well, I've been reading this thread very carefully these past few days, thinking a lot about what others say. The original poster asked "are there any carpenters anymore, or is virtually everyone a specialist?" (that's a paraphrase, of course)
But the title of the thread posts a different question - "what IS a carpenter?" So I gave my opinion. Didn't mean to demean anyone else's opinion, or in any way imply that I was "right", or had a "better" definition than anyone else.
Still don't think any of those things...but...I will say this,
Roofing is part of carpentry. So are framing, cabinet making, stairbuilding, drywall, siding, remodelling, foundations, insulating, excavation, many, many more things we could name if we gave it a little thought. And today, all over North America, you can find people who make a living at one or another of these special areas.
Is a roofer necessarilly a carpenter? Is an excavator? No, of course not. Is an insulator? A sider or drywall hanger? No. Neither is a stair builder, a cabinet maker or a framer.
The profession of carpentry includes all those specialty areas. A carpenter has to be able to do a satisfactory job at every single one of them, or s/he is not a carpenter. Take the idea of money out of the equation, the idea of speed, of how much you can accomplish per day, say, and ask yourself this - "if left alone, with a reasonable budget and a set of workable plans, could I produce a home that would stand the test of time...say...100 years?"
I have no idea what makes a carpenter, but I think I'm one. . .
I appreciate everyone's interest in this thread. It is great to see so much thought put into your opinions.
As I get older roofs seem to get higher' shingles heavier and time seams to fly past. When I am older I want to be doing less of the grunt work and more of the finess work. The same will hold true for others, I should guess. I can't imagine framing houses into my late 60's.
It is great to find people who take pride in what they do let alone talk to each other about it. I asked my origional question recently in a local lumber yard and one "carpenter" with an apprentice said we come to work not to think. The rest gave me the cold shoulder. Maybe thay thought I was out to steal their help.
Best of luck to all in the new year!!
Yours is a very fine definition Jim
except that it overlooks all the carpenters who work on things other than houses.
AND
Of course you also realize that your definition included what is historically several different trades( carpentry, joinery, cabinet making....etc.----and that in many places---at many times you would be legally forbidden to poach in anothers trade.
BTW----hey---did ya get that little book I sent ya last Xmas?----how would you like to have been a carpenter on THAT house?---( or a joiner, or a cabinet maker...LOL)
Very best wishes,
stephen
Yeah, thanks Stephen, I still have that book. That is one fine place. If you ever get out this way you might enjoy visiting Buschart Gardens in Victoria, British Columbia. Same kind of deal, but the wife's gardens are what make this place worth seeing. Started out as some type of mine...borax maybe?...lime?...someone will know. Anyway, it's well worth seeing.
One of my uncles hit it big in business and has a place in New Hampshire where we had the first Blodgett dysfuntional family reunion a few years ago. Nowhere near the scale of the one in that booklet you sent, but awe inspiring to say the least. Apparently a crew of Itallians were brought to the site and spent a few years building it around 1900. There were at least a couple of "carpenters" on that job, man, I'll tell you that.
Limestone and gravel.Quality repairs for your home.
Aaron the HandymanVancouver, Canada
Hi Robert.
Sounds like you are from the lehigh Valley, where are you based out of?
regards
Mark
They call me "Aaron"
"Aaron the Handyman"
Quality repairs for your home.
Aaron the Handyman
Vancouver, Canada
Bill,
To a degree Sphere is right. New construction is too fast paced and often too cutthroat for a guy who " Does everything". In order to make money they need to specialize and become super efficient. Where I am new construction is the majority of all trade related work.
Consider also the whole " Subcontractor" thing. More and more places " Subcontract" their work. For example I used to install stair rails for a shop. Many of the "Installers" started out working for a guy who put rails in and learned what they could. Then they struck out on their own as installers. Truth be knonw they are really just a herd of One Trick Ponies. That's what you'll find more and more of when it comes to Cabinets or Drywall or anything that a guy can learn fairly quickly and then make money at it.
I have a friend who makes money hand over fist. This guy trims houses in the $5 Million to $10 Million range. He couldn't cut a rafter if his life depended on it but he just finished a $110,000 Cherry Library. IS he or is he not a Carpenter?
I consider myself to be a Carpenter even though I am employed elsewhere right now. I started out at 15 years old carrying my fathers scaffolding and tools from foundation to foundation when he framed in large developments in Florida. Later on I worked as a Job Super and punchout guy for a very large roofing and siding company. Next I worked on a crew that just framed. I eventually moved on to a crew that framed and trimmed and whatever else needed to be done but only on very highend new construction. I learned stirs and rails after striking out on my own almost by accident. At points along the way I've taken time out to work for Uncle Sam.
I don't believe what you will and won't do determines if you are a carpenter or not. Rather I believe it's what you know. I can hang and finish drywall but would rather spend eight hours being poked in the eye with a sharp stick.
I think part of the problem is that there is no formal certification process for carpenters and cabinetmakers, in my mind the most skilled of the construction trades. Plumbers, electricians, HVAC folks, welders all have this and are generally higher paid. Anyone with a skillsaw and a nail apron can call himself a carpenter.
Gettin pretty old and most I think are dead. They dont do it like that any more. Too slow. Remodelers are some , but maybe not cause framers were framers back then . Not many of those any more. If you had a good framer , you wouldnt want him painting . If you had a concrete finisher , you wouldnt want him doing your drywall. If you had a plumber , would he do your taxes?
This is gonna hit hard . Most all """""""""do it all remodelers""""""""""" are piddlers when it comes to sub trade work , gettin it done. They cant hold up , unless they are really subs working as RMs. And then,.............. they only turn and burn in their real fields.
Tim Mooney
Edited 12/26/2004 8:05 pm ET by Tim Mooney
Edited 12/26/2004 8:07 pm ET by Tim Mooney
Your first post here rankled me a bit but after I reread it once or twice I realized you were right. I confess to having a couple other subs piling up behind me, waiting for me to finish a commercial trim job, which is definately not my main gig.
The most succesful builder that I worked for demanded my best possible work at about 80 mph ( read efficiency). I can still feel him looking over my shoulder years later and I feel fortunate to have that. If I were to designate an experience criteria for "Carpenter" it would include a couple of years experience doing "production" work. The guys who have worked for me that didnt have that kind of experience are the ones who tend to bog down. It's hard to create that kind of learning environment on the smaller jobs that I'm doing these days.
Overheard a builder telling his laborer, who was cleaning out footings with a shovel "I really apprciate the time and care your putting into this but we really need to get this house built".
Piddlin away here in NorCal,
Tom
The remodeler thing - he's kind of right. That's the only place the market seems to make being that utilitarian worthwhile. Specialised trades do better in the new construction market. If you think like a framer, then frame, and everyone will love you, but don't trim. And if you think like a trimmer, for your own sake and sanity, put the framing gun down. I can do both, I know how to do both, but I could never ever be competitive with full time framers at what they do, and frankly some of the math skills they have to keep around impress me. Figuring out uneven hips for instance. Man, I'd spend a few hours in a book before I went to work and keep the thing in my belt while I was there. But maybe it's just the skill set I've learned. I've had framers look at some fairly simple trim fixes I've done and get boggly eyed.
But what makes a real carp? In addition to the talent, he/she's gotta be open minded enough to see opportunity when it comes (i.e. new products / methods), interested enough to know the how and why things used to be done (old products and methods), and a good problem solver on the fly. Everyone tends to look at full time guys and say oh, they move so fast, and so they try to just blaze through something and get disappointed at the end. I don't think the real talented guys really ever worry specifically about speed so much as just efficiency of movement. Time is money, but it isn't just moving faster, its finding a way to continue some benchmark of quality while improving the pace at which it occurs. Thats where the old hands can become so worthwhile to us young pups. I know a guy, he doesn't move fast, he carries his oxygen in a camelbak pack, he thinks his way through things faster than . . . he's the FIL of a friend and so is sometimes around a mutual job site. Can't figure it out, ask him. He won't swing a hammer or lift a beam or whatever anymore, but just having that brain sitting there can speed things up.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
I see it this way: Some jobs are definitely carpenters jobs. Like framing, sheathing and trim. But then there are all the 'kinda' carpenter jobs. Mostly jobs some other trade doesn't do or want to do.
IMHO this is the biggest reason carpenters make, some times and places and in various ways, less money. Carpentry is a wide field. From highly experienced experts specialized in complicated assemblies and methods to rank amateur wood butchers who are best used to sweep up and hold the dummy end of a tape. All of them get called carpenter.
Carpenter is the catch-all term for a lot of generalists. Because of this I have noticed that carpenters sometimes have a hard time getting credit and respect. That is not to say a good contractor won't give credit and pay extra to a known outstanding carpenter.
A really good carpenter makes all the other trades more efficient and effective. I have worked with and around a few carpenters so very good that the estimated cost for electrical work went down when we knew they would be on the job.
On the other hand if a drunk can beg, borrow or steal a tool belt and a hammer. If he can manage to get up early enough to get to a job at a credible hour. He will tell the guy in charge that he is a 'carpenter'. He barely knows which end of the hammer to hold. He can't read a tape measure. He knows that wood goes into houses somewhere but he isn't sure just how or where or what it is doing in there.
On big commercial jobs he, assuming he has certain mimetic and acting skills, might last long enough to learn something. If there are enough skilled, generous and patient carpenters present to learn from he might become a carpenter worthy of the name.
Too often I see a tragic parallel learning path. This also happens with other trades. What happens is that people are specialized too narrowly. I have talked to carpenters who only did sheathing. It was all they knew. I have also seen, had the displeasure of working with, electricians who only knew how to install receptacles. In both cases they characterized themselves in terms of the general heading of the trade they work in, carpenter and electrician respectively.
Of course while these people are sheathing and receptacle installing fools, sometimes faster in their narrow expertise than the real tradesmen, they are neither carpenters nor electricians. Let them work outside their narrowly defined skill set and you are asking for trouble.
I am the "Do it all Remodeler" and I'm pretty good, no, very good at my own small routine. When folks ask me what I do, I generally tell them that I'm a carpenter. Whether or not I sub out some of the work depends mainly on the size of the job. Its often hard, if not impossible to schedule a sub to come in for a bathroom or small kitchen remodel and this is how I wound up where I am. I wouldnt recommend it though and have told younger guys that I would pick one or two specialities. I've worked on framing crews, roofing crews, pulled wire for an electrician and a few other construction related jobs. All of this just to stay employed but the end result is that I'm a fairly well rounded jack. It would be hard for me to compete with some of these sub trades but for the size of my jobs I am reasonably competetive and I have no problem getting someone else in there if the situation warrants it. I'm serious about what I do and charge accordingly. I do my best not to "piddle". My word for that is "flail". My old dog is starting to piddle and I have to leave him in the truck.
Tom
I think a "carpenter" is a person who can do everything necessary to build a house - layout and excavate the hole, pour the concrete, frame, side, roof the house, coordinate with every seperately liscensed sub contractor (electrician, plumber, HVAC...maybe mason if there's a chimney involved) finish the interior wall and ceiling surfaces, build and install all cabinetry and millwork, install all hardware and wood flooring, prepare for tile and sheet vinyl floors.
A "carpenter" can start with a set of plans and a reasonable budget and produce a completed, weathertight home.
I knew a few when I was younger. Now I know far fewer. I hope some of the regulars here at Breaktime are carpenters. It took me over 25 years before I felt comfortable calling myself one. Now I aspire to be a "good" carpenter - but it's gonna take a while yet - too much to learn, too little life.
Edited 12/26/2004 10:27 pm ET by jim blodgett
Those were going to be my very words. A lot of guys call themselves "carpenters" because they have some knowledge of some phase of wood working. You defined my idea of carpenter exactly.
The recipe varies,I'm sure from man to man,But I think every one thinks I'm 2-5% mother-hen about my details and 95-98% Bull-spit...Scribe once, cut once!
I think you've touched on some fine points, the only thing you forgot was cutting down the trees, and milling the lumber. <G>
Things are very specialized in the building trades these days and I think it would be hard for someone who is starting out to get intimately involved with all of the processess you mentioned. When I started, in 76, it was the way things were done. 3 or 4 man crew, 1 laborer (me). Even then there was always someone just a little better at framing, or roofing or concrete or cabinets and they would take over that particular aspect of the job. I've run into some excellent specialists but have found the ones with rounded experience more in tune with the entire job and more willing and capable to adapt to problems should they arise.
I think the day I stopped taking home the job I was running, as graduation day for me.
Be Constructive
Gord
St.Margaret's Bay NS
Jim,
You nailed it dude!
For the most part these days Carpenters can be found in the Remodeling biz.
On such smaller scale jobs, relying on subcontractors can impede the "flow" of a job and cause a lot of delays and the resulting bad customer experiences.
So we do it all, whenever we can.
The trade-off is one of Profficiency vs. Efficiency.
I can do everything from pouring a slab, to cutting roofs, to wiring, plumbing and finishing DW, as well as HIGH quality trim and cabinetry.
I don't do most of then as efficiently as a one trade specialist.
BUT..
On a small remodel I CAN do them all WELL and keep the job ontrack and on budget.
There will be little down time and the customers will see progress daily without having to open thier home to a multitude of strangers.
Just one strange guy.. Me!
Another point about real Carpenters....
While framers, frame and trimmers, trim and plumbers, plumb and electricians, electrocute, etc....
A real Carp understands all the trades and how they work together and effect each other.
A carp who knows electric and heating and plumbing and trim will make provisions for those phases from the beginning with things like nailers and plumbing chases and conduits in concrete walls, and studs that are in line with joists and rafters and floor framing that is laid out so you dont have to butcher a joist to get your toilet in. etc. etc.
Mr T
I can't afford to be affordable anymore
I agree totally with your description and fall directly into the same boat as you. I may be better at some things than others, but I do know what it takes and how to build a house or addition from soup to nuts. It takes quite a long time of hands on and study to be able to do all these things from reading the plans, doing layout,framing, installing mechanicals, finishing trim and wiping the final coat of French polish onto the walnut raised panels you made and installed in the hallways. The next step like you said is to be considered really good amongst your peers. The problem I find though is that it is not cost effective to do all the work yourself. I suppose I learned to do most of these trades and crafts out of pure interest. Many of them I just don't do anymore and just hire others who do.
The description of what a carpenter is and does has changed drastically throughout the last couple of generations. Like previously mentioned it covers a very broad range of things. Good question.
Anyone else notice the big heads and biases on this post, and how everyones own definition of what a carpenter was included themselves?
Only one. It wasn't a big head, only a small minded wannabe.
My Hat Size is 7-7/8 but I don't have a big head.
I learned this trade from my mother's family they did everything from train tracks to runways and schools, and my father owns a collision repair facility (Auto Body Shop). I actually have learned more than one trade in my 39 years on earth. It seems to me that these days the 20 something group tries to use attitude in place of ability. I think it is called imputence. But then again I have been known to be wrong just ask my wife.
You can take me off your every ones list .
Tim Mooney
A carpenter has to want to be a carpenter and should act like a professional in all aspects of his work. He should avoid anything that could be considered amateurish. He follows tried and true practices and principles of construction and does the best job he can. He develops a feel for the work and the materials he works with. He makes carpentry his chosen profession and learns the trade. My dad was an electrician and I remember whenever he spoke of carpenters he always had a tone of respect for them, I think he respected them as tradesmen. My father-in-law was an old carpenter one of the very best I ever met I always had respect for his abilities, honesty, hard work and experience.
Very well said.
Jim,
I'm with your definition. I have a ticket from the Canadian government that says I'm a certified carpenter, but that isn't the true essence of it. Typically the guy who comes on site on day one, a bare piece of ground, is a carpenter, and most often the last one there when it is completed is a carepnter too. These days it is typically not the same person, but it can be. Carpentry is an amazingly wide ranging trade, so it is hardly surprising that many specialities within the trade have opened up.
The key planks of the trade are the three F's: forming, framing and finishing. I believe a strong working knowledge of all three areas is the hallmark of the true carpenter, even if they choose to specialize in one area.
There is still a strong need for generalists as opposed to specialists. Small communities can't support specialised subcontractors, so generalist contractors are more the norm. Anyone considering general contracting needs solid broad-based skills and experience. Even if they choose to sub out most of the work, knowing the basics of each speciality will make them a more effective GC or site superintendent.
Wally
Lignum est bonum.
I think it's interesting to read other's descriptions of a carpenter. It seems most here hold the term in high esteem and take great pride in calling oneself a carpenter. One of the greatest draws of this site is that many here choose to be in the trades not so much as an occupation but (as cheesy as it may sound) as a way of living and approaching life. Being a carpenter also includes having the right attitude in your approach to your work and respecting the history of the trade. I take pride in the work I do from laying out and building slabs and foundations to now getting to do a little bit of trim work. I appreciate the learning process and the "see it done, do it, master it," progression of the process. So while I possess only a fraction of the skills set required of a seasoned carpenter, it makes me proud to call myself a carpenter. Even if (using the aforementioned guidelines) I have to fudge on my resume a bit.
To all,
I enjoyed Zendos' comment because I think he cut right to the heart of the matter in about ONE sentence. I also liked Sam T's LONG list---because---to me it further elaborated the point Zendo made in one sentence.
All that said-----I enjoyed Jim Blodgetts definition----because I know that's what it means to him---and that he holds true to it.
However, I think Jims definition has some problems in general.
1) it is specific as to time and place----and is biased in favor of the attribute Jim values---versatility
2)The attribute Jim values---versatility---by definition limits proficiency and speed
Jim was kind enough to list the skill set valuable to HIM---in the time and place HE is working-------------however
it would fall short in another time or place. For instance my grandpa possesed a number of additional skills missing from Jims list----------and a person with Jims skill list would not be as competent in a number of things my father in law routinely did.
also----a number of folks mentioned a wide ranging skill set in which they felt proficient-----that's a mistake in semantics I think. more accurately I believe they could produce competent products using a variety of skills--------but the pace at which they would be able to produce those products would not accurately be labeled as proficient.
I own several books about japanese carpentry----and in one of them Toshio Odate talked about this very thing. I will have to paraphrase, but in general he said that a craftsman has a social obligation to work his BEST for the general welfare of society----and that whatever society requires---it is the craftsmans responsibility to produce.
In Odates trade, he says he was required to produce one very high caliber shoji per day which meant that he had to have both skill and speed----and that the WORST insult was to be called a slow worker.
that's kind of the attitude I shoot for---working with skill and speed for the benefit of the society I find my self in. Fortuneately, for me , the society I find myself in doesn't require me to work at trimming out $600,000 houses----that type of work would make me miserable. But I believe If I applied that same attitude I would be able to adapt to WHATEVER work I came to be required to produce.
Stephen
I'm just curious. Why would trimming out a $600,000 make you miserable?
Jer,
it's a personal idiosyncrasy.
It might well be a dream job for some-----a wonderfull chance to use their skill to their fullest potential------------
however---for me
Assuming I even had the talent to take on that project--------I suspect I would be overcome with remorse by the futility of it.
does the world really NEED another $600,000 house?( especially to shelter 3 people?)----why does a women who obviously doesn't cook feel the need for a $3000 refrigerator?---stuff like that.
I would much rather apply my abilities elsewhere.
But----the right choice for me---doesn't need to be the same choice for anybody else
Best wishes, Stephen
I would agree with your comments. I learned the trade from my father in law; a good man to work for, but a hard man to work with. We did everything from foundation to finish work, except electrical, plumbing, painting, and brick laying. The few houses which I have built on my own, have been better than many that I have been through that were built by paper g/cs who sub out most of the work. We know that if we make a mistake at one point of the job, that it will come back to haunt us somewhere later. Many of the subs seem to walk away from mistakes, knowing that they won't have to deal with the consiquences.
That being said, I find that about all the work I that comes my way now is remodel. You almost have to have a liscence plate from outside of the county in order to build a house in this town. All of the developers in the area are hooked up with big firms from out of town who can throw up a match stick house in no time, and sell to as if it was quality.
When drywall first came out in the 20's, the carpenters hung the rock and did the tape and bed. Somewhere the tape and bed work became the painters job. Now it's hard to find a painter to do T&B.
Framing, trim and cabinets - that's what makes a carpenter. Otherwise, you're a framer, a trim man, or a cabinet maker.
Carpenters don't paint or T&B.
Ed.
Framing, trim and cabinets
For some time now I have told people never to trust a guy who puts more than three things on his card or the side of his truck. He can only be good at so many things and four or more is too many.
A few years back traveling thru Los Angeles I met a guy who's truck sign read "Roofing, Drywall and Transmission Repair"
@@ A few years back traveling thru Los Angeles I met a guy who's truck sign read "Roofing, Drywall and Transmission Repair" There is a shop in Bellevue, WA that offers tatooing, body piercing and spiritual counseling. Have to look for those synergies.The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
Saw a shop in a small town in WY with the sign:
GEMS CRYSTALS AND AMMOI'm thankful for the loyal opposition! It's hard to learn much from those who simply agree with you.
Was a place between where I lived and where my (not yet) wife lived called "Dave's Booze & Shoes".
Something for everyone!
"Whatever happened to the guys who did everything from frame to finish,drywall paint?"
They are all working for themselves!!!
Bill,
Search of Alphabetical Index in NOC-S 1991
From:http://www23.hrdc-drhc.gc.ca/2001/e/groups/7271.shtml
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7271
Carpenters
Carpenters construct, erect, install, maintain and repair structures and components of structures made of wood, wood substitutes and other materials. They are employed by construction companies, carpentry contractors, maintenance departments of factories, plants and other establishments, or they may be self-employed.
Example Titles
apprentice carpenter
carpenter
finish carpenter
journeyman/woman carpenter
maintenance carpenter
renovation carpenter
rough carpenter
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Main duties
Carpenters perform some or all of the following duties:
Lotsa help, hunh?
SamT
I used to be a "carpenter" ...
till one day a coula years ago ... at some "company funtion" I attended with my wife ...
and over heard her tell one of her company higher-ups that I was "a carpenter" ....
I told her ... from now on .... I'm a "remodeling contractor" ....
a "carpenter" is someone how shows up to remodel that guys kitchen ...
a "remodeling contractor" is the guy he calls to have said "carpenter" show up ...
then again ... even though we can't ever agree what it means ... when a customer tells me I'm a Master Carpenter .... who am I to argue! Why yes I am ... just sign the contract and give me the start check ....
how's that for starting up an old agrument!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
My wife is a school administrater at a private school here in the Philly area so I get to go to these functions with the ivory tower, pinkey fingered, bleeding heart/ fat cat crowd and I love nothing more than telling them I'm a carpenter when asked what I do...especially after holding my own in discussions of world affairs, literature or the arts. I find their reactions quite amusing and very genuine in their pleasent surprise and quite often they will want to talk about the techniques of the trade.
Good thread.
My Oxford American says a carpenter is "one who makes and repairs wooden objects and structures" and that the historic root of the word came from carriage / wagon builder. (same as "car").
I prefer the word "carpenter" to other terms such as contractor, remodeler, etc. because I like the sense I have of a few good carpenters who taught me here and there. If they called themselves carpenters and I can do the bit that I can to continue the tradition then I'll use the term, but with my teachers in the back of my mind just as they had/have their teachers in the backs of their minds.
I think one of the reasons the term is mis-understood is that it's sometimes easier to say "I'm a carpenter" than to try to explain to people what it is that you actually do. A framing "trainee" can call himself a carpenter and it doesn't bother me. I just hope that a few people continue the tradition.
Jim B, Mr. T and a couple of others came pretty close to what I generally think of as a carpenter, but I think I would have had a hard time describing it as well as they did.
Maybe it's just that my physical limitations have increased over the last three decades, but even though I don't do as much of the "actual" carpentry as I once did, I think I'm more efficient and a better carpenter than ever before. It's the thinkin-it-thru thing. And it's also the quality input from the folks here at BT.
Someone already made the point that quite a few tradespeople make enough to eventually just work on their own projects. Their are several guys in the small area I live in who might do a little for someone else here and there, but mostly build and/or rehab their own stuff for a living. A couple of them are pretty sharp and I like seeing their work.
I'm thankful for the loyal opposition! It's hard to learn much from those who simply agree with you.
You've all made some very good points... some I agree with and some I disagree with. When I think, "carpenter", I think wood. That's what comes to mind. To say that you are not a carpenter if you don't finish a slab or excavate a hole is unfair in my opinion. I'm thinking Norm Abrams is a pretty dang good carpenter.... but I'm not sure that is proficient at determining grades or running a Case backhoe.... although I'm sure he'd figure it out pretty quick!
I think to be a carpenter you should be proficient, but not necessarily an expert, at framing, interior and exterior trim, cabinets and built ins, form construction, siding, and probably roofing as well.
Is Brett Favre a "football player" or a "quarterback"? Great field general, but have you ever seen him throw a block? Ever see Drew Bledsoe try to run with the ball? Ever see a 350lb defensive tackle recover a fumble and make a run for the endzone 80 yards away only to run out of gas 20 yards short? Ever see Pedro Martinez swing the bat? I sure have.
We may be position players, but we're still carpenters, IMHO.
Les , that was a good responding post . Im attaching credits.
[Late 18th century. Origin uncertain: perhaps a blend of piss and puddle .]
Thats funny . I guess all men that work on rough construction sites are all piddlers.
I had no idea the word meant exactly that. I didnt know it meant disorganized either.
I think you know what I meant though and you posted a good post about it.
This should belong in Discussing Our Differences, but you need a reply or at least I need to give one. ;
There is a need for remodelers and they serve an important niche. They are responsible for comming up with fixes and solving problems along with knowing several trades enough to do them. Takes a people person to communicate with clients working in their homes often with pets and kids. Patience is a reality in that business. I make no less of that trade.
The building business is another monster that plays by a different set of rules . The geter done method is a trump. Its a race against time and within budgets to make a project come under the line. Many times homes are built within 90 days turnkey. That of course takes another game plan. The buildings also have to be done cheap enough to get under appraisels for people to buy the work and give profit to the builder. Economical methods are but another trump.
The two businesses really dont mix in the general mind set. One might as well be white while the other is black. One speaks of speed and then other speaks of quality normally. Everyone knows those two words dont rub well against each other. Wiring as you mention is done by you and you care about the best results. In a new house a kid will be pulling wires a lot of times while the guy you hired is in an office.
Tim Mooney
Tim, I didn't think you meant that either.
As you can see by my signature tag line, my focus is quality. I cannot say that I am a success in the business of producing quality work, but am surviving for now. I am determined to give it my best though, because I believe there is a niche for quality, albeit a small one. Speed definitely dominates the market -kind of like fast food.
I am glad you mentioned the relationship with the customer, because that is important even to a carpenter.
I have succeeded in identifying the best builder in my area. A person can drive by one of his houses and see the difference, although it is difficult to define it. I had heard about him and heard also that he is retired. Recently, I found out that he still dabbles in one or two houses a year with his son. I went to their jobsite the other day and introduced myself, complimented their work, and expressed my desire to work with them, either as a subcontractor or in some other capacity. It is kind of like finding a guru or a martial arts master and hoping to be chosen to be a student.
I may have the opportunity to work with them when they start another home in the spring. This individual is also known for his ability to do every phase of construction. The father and son work slowly and never have trouble selling a house. They do everything right. If I mention their name, people immediately know who they are and that they build a fine house. It is my goal to be known for the same thing. I figure once that happens, I can do it my way and still make a good living. Meanwhile, the fast framers will continue to eat my lunch.
I especially like the feeling that I am proud of everything I have built. The source of much of my pride gets covered up by sheathing and drywall, but I know it is there.
I would also like to say one other thing about where this builder and I have the same philosophy. No matter which side of his homes you look at, everything looks good. It is not just about a huge facade facing the street. It is about an integrated three-dimansional design that gives importance to detail.Les Barrett Quality Construction
Id like to take our discussion a tad further.
We all have to do something to make a living . Ive built several specs and rentals. Ive also built custom. Ive remodeled for the public and for my self buying and selling . Plus rehabbing rentals for my self and the public. Ive worked in the trades as a sub and I hold a state contractors license to be a general contractor. Im also an investor . I currently am a city inspector enforcing "all" codes. Ive been on every side of the fence plus astraddle of it. Right now Im hung up on top in barbwire. <G>
Before you get critical of one of the other sides its neccesary to see their side at least. From your writing here you are interrested in quality. Well, some people here make a living doing it while the vast majarioty dont. Of course who defines it ? What set of rules are we playing by and where are they to be read? Would you define putting in a window air conditioner correctly , quality? Or would you save the word until you mastered a winding circular staircase two toned stain and paint towering four stories? I like to build things "right". If they serve their purposes and are functional , who are we to criticise? By the sounds of one retired builder in town thats slow and does things right , you may be over board and on tilt with reality. Hes not making a living worth squat , is my reaction thought. I believe it is our duty to make our family the best living we can, provideing its done honestly. Quality is not a plak to hang on our wall. Its to get repeat work and have self satisfaction. Our first responsibility is to our family and to our self.
If you are building starter homes , specs , apartments, and rental units , you better be building for the dollar . Its like the cowboy trambled by the bull in the ring ; "Give him a hand folks , thats all the thanks he will get. " Dont find your self bankrupt , divorced, homeless , pennyless, because you werent making solid business decisions that yours truly had control of the out come.
I like to think about what that guy was thinking . Sometimes , theres good reason.
Tim Mooney
>>I believe it is our duty to make our family the best living we can, provideing its done honestly. Quality is not a plak to hang on our wall. Its to get repeat work and have self satisfaction. Our first responsibility is to our family and to our self.
Emphasis on honestly, what more can you say. That could well be a company slogan.
Is everyone having a midlife crisis or something?? ;)
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Les,
I just want you to know that I appreciate your posts usually.
With out going into a big thing, I believe that we share some similar traits and or philosophies concerning work.
I am not fast, but I try my best to be good.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
@@ Whatever happened to the guys who did everything from frame to finish,drywall paint?
Good question.
You just named four trades.
I think the people that do this type of work are now remodelers or "handymen." I always thought "handyman" something of a perjorative, but I am changing my POV.
Handyman services seems to be a growing thing. One down in MV charges $85 for the first half hour, then down to $45. Going rate round here for people that can do that seems to be around $23/hr.
They are not carpenters. They have to have skills and tools for multiple trades. That costs $$$. BTW - you forgot electrical and plumbing <g>.
The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
Les,
I get crapped on all the time here, and mostly dont want to ever give an opinion. There is to much displaced testosterone and 'I can do it better than you junk', when it should be working the collective brain to help everyone. I know what I can do and feel I dont need to prove it.
I stay in business because of my quality. I get cool jobs and sometimes free reign of my design interests because of quality. My family on both sides back more generations than I know survived pushing quality including building houses. It is most important, you just have to find your market. The story about the contractor you met was a good and hard step. You studied the area, and jumped on a lead. Keep doing that. Keep doing what you do.
If contractors have to short work to stay in business they arent good contractors. How do they sleep. Id rather teach my family to be honest, fair,and take pride in thier workmanship then to bring home some extra bucks. Taking care of your family goes much deeper and wider than what you make financially. Corner cutters reap what they sew maybe thats the reason so many use drugs... even at work.
You can make it rich, it just takes patience and a lot more time and effort with quality then punching out a bunch of barely legal buildings. Notice I didnt say homes. Id rather pay extra for a strong and safe place that also looks nice. If I cant afford it, I cant afford it. Thats living within means, and taking care of my family.
Dont be a helpless romantic and starve yourself, not my point, but you are on track and some of us believe in your efforts. There is everything to be said about balance...some things you can 'let' and still have great quality, but presentation is everything.
-zen
IMHO: we have to work on your definition of quality though because Split Level shouldnt be in it. lol
Nice to see you are well read in philosophy. I think you may like Jung and maybe some Zen ideals- look to some newer work- Suzuki or since. If you havent read it Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, Stephen Covey.
Edited 12/28/2004 11:00 pm ET by zendo
Zen:
Amen!
I wish I had said that myself.
BILL
all you really need to do is go to home depot, and buy a hammer and a tool bag, and presto, you is a cah- pent- err.
I think the tools are why I became a carpenter. I will buy any tool once and a second if I like it.
I liked what you said. You may find that there are more people out there concerned about a quality job than you think. I too felt I was tipping at windmills, spinning my wheels, whatever, but it had to do with the type of job and therefore type of subs that came my way. For the longest time I wasn't a chooser of my jobs. I was too afraid that I would lose $$ otherwise. It's not that way now. If you want to change what you have chosen, then you have to start by choosing what you've presently got. Only then can you move on. I have found a whole group of subs who really care....mind you they're not stubborn or foolish enough to lose money, but the quality comes first. It's a good thing.
Les,
Quality was one of the reasons I gave up on trying to run a framing crew and became a one man band. In my area it is almost impossible to find someone who cares how well it's framed. Just how cheap.
That became obviouse to me when I stopped to see a local builder who had a foundation sitting for some time. He told me it was sitting because he was short framers. I asked if he would like me to give him a price. He answered " No, I pay $2.50 a foot and I'll just wait until someone comes along who will do it for that". No concern for how well it was built, only how cheaply.
As a one man band it took me a while to find the right relationships. I wanted to trim and install stairs and rails. The very first shop I installed for was a disaster. Every friday the guys would talk about what short cuts they learned over the week so that they could keep up the pace and make money. Only did a few jobs for them. The next two were all about the high end stuff and the wanted quality.
After a time I had developed a following of builders who asked for me by name and even a few who would wait if I was booked up. That morphed into being the guy who could set the stairs and do a hundred other things noone else could or would do.
I didn't realize the real payoff until I was called away on my current misadventure. A friend of mine was working woth me. He had worked as a carpenter early on in life. Recently he had been laid of from his sales job and couldn't find anything else. I started to teach him what I knew. When I was called away I set him up with my best account and the advice of " Be the guy they ask for because you are better then everyone else". It's working pretty well for him.
No matter what happens from here, the fact that he is doing ok, not great but ok, and that I still get calls to do High end stuff to this day tells me we were on track. You may never get rich but you'll feel good about what you leave behind.
Things will get better. Sorry about the dog.
interesting thread....
In my humble opinion, a carpenter is carpenter if he/she can be given a blueprint, an empty lot, a pile of lumber and make a house that will still be standing in 50 yrs...or a blueprint, a stack of sheet goods and wood stock, and make a kitchen full of cherry stain grade cabs....or walk onto a site with a saw, nailer, and install 1000 l/f of 4 pc base and crown....and I believe there are may of these carpenters out there and doing well at it....
...but the one I feel has earned his degree at "Carpenter U" is the one that can answer a simple question...."Why are you doing what your doing?" And the answer isn't' the noble "well..I like working with my hands..." or " I like the smell of cut wood..." This well educated person is able to tell the seeker of truth the correct answer...
"...I can't put this stud here because a heating chase will be here..."
"...I need to put a finished end on this upper because it has glass doors and open shelving...:
"...I start the cope in this corner because when a person enters a room, this is the piece that will be seen most often..."
"...we need to offset this joist to make way for the stool waste line..."
"...we need to put blocking here so the coffered ceiling will be able to be fastened properly..."
This is how I learned what I now know and how I continue to learn what I don't know..I asked people..."why are you doing that?"
now that being said...I like the analogy to carps and football players. What makes Peyton Manning a better quarterback than, say...Brian Greesie? Well.. natural talent for one, desire may come into play...but I think that Mannings' legendary work ethic and study of himself as well as his opponent is what makes him one of the "Master Football players". Just watch him play a game...he knows "why" he is doing what he has done, is doing , and will be doing based on the circumstances thrown at him. The same is true with "Carpenters"....the good ones are able to take any situation and know how to be able to deal with it...and more importantly..."why"
...and the best can do it well...very well.
...and oh, btw.....I aint no Peyton Mannning..
....but I do wear his hat...:)
Edited 12/30/2004 1:27 am ET by charlie the singing carpenter
when i grow up i'm going to be just like youMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
being a carpenter isn't just a job, it's a way of life...
it's like looking at a project & sayin "hey bud, let's party!"
greg