I have been asked to bid on trimming a highend ranch style house. I have never bid for this type work before although I have done tons of trim work. I have to set doors, casing, base, crown the whole magilla. How do I charge by the ft. by the room? I will be touring the house on Friday here in southern CT. Would like the work but don’t want to screw myself either
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
Fine Homebuilding's editorial director has some fun news to share.
Featured Video
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
No one here knows your production rate. Nor do you know ours.
Is the house being lived in? Furniture? Can you set up inside?
During your tour take pictures to refresh your memory when you get home. If there's prints, take a copy-transfer your notes to it when you price out your time. Since you've done this work, you know your probable progress-take your time and figure it out.
Best of luck.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I do it by the piece. One door, or one window, is a piece. Count the number of windows and doors, and figure out how long it takes you to trim one. Then multiply.
Do you have to set the doors? Allow for that.
Is the trim more than 3 pieces per side? That takes more time, too. Be sure the builder tells you what the trim style will be before you give a price.
With base, I just estimate how long a room will take me. I look for how many closets, and how many corners. But I've been doing this over 30 years. My estimates are getting pretty close now.
Don't forget to ask where you'll be able to set up. If you've got to walk a long ways for every cut, your production will go waaay down.
Charge by the piece and K.I.S.S.
Door hung and trimmed $50
Window Jamb, and Casing $50
Crown per room $50
Baseboard per room $50
Built in cabinet base $50/ft.
Built in cabinet uppers $50/ft.
Cabinet doors and drawers extra.
Closet shelving $15 per shelf
All hardware extra
"Perfect is the enemy of Good." Morrison
Crown and base, same price? That's KITooSS.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I'll take the base, you take the crown! Deal?John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
I'll take the hundred,
you take the credit.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
On second thought-why do I hate running baseboard?"The knees-it's always the knees."John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
I'll take the base, you take the crown! Deal?
I'd take that deal everyday! I hate crawling around on my hands and knees anymore, much easier to stand on a ladder...........at least for me.
Doug
After 3 days of crown, allow me.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Crown and base a room $100.
Whats wrong with that?"Perfect is the enemy of Good." Morrison
I'm still waiting to hear if it's lived in.
And nothing wrong with the base-but I think the crown is too cheap. Maybe it's the remodeler in me.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
To me, base, stool, casing, even hanging doors is a one man job. But crown, I always make sure I've got a helper. At least for the hanging. Especially if its Rangerboard. That stuff is like trying to hold up a wet noodle.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
I figure about a 1/2 day for crown in an average room. At my rates, that's $200, without materials.
It does include set-up and take-down, and caulking the crown along the wall and ceiling. I don't putty nails.
just curious if you don't putty why do you caulk ?
Mike, I would so I was sure that come the seasonal change I wouldn't get a call about some hairline cracks at the ceiling. Sometimes that 95cent caulk just don't make up for what I ain't.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
cuz hes prolly a hack :)
Be carefull keeping your tongue in your cheek like that.You might bite it off falling down thos stairs over there...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Putty is for painters, they are the ones ultimately responsible for making the nail holes invisible. Painters also caulk as a rule where I work, although some carpenters like to caulk to cover up excessive gaps (not all ceilings and walls are straight) to make the job look better at completion."Perfect is the enemy of Good." Morrison
Especially for paint grade, getting rid of that thin dark line along the ceiling and wall eliminates a lot of questions from the homeowner. And it covers up any minor variations in the walls and ceiling. But mainly the first reason.
And I don't putty largely because a few painters got annoyed with me years ago for filling the nail holes.
I'll cut, you nail."Perfect is the enemy of Good." Morrison
You caulk yours? Wow...my painters would have screamed at me for doing their work..
.
"Thank goodness for the Democrats! If you are terminally unemployable, enjoy living off of govt welfare and feel you owe society nothing you're in luck: there is a donkey waiting for you."
Thank goodness for superhuman republicans.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
what if the room is 20 by 30 and the crown 10 feet off the floor? I charge linear foot and add for scaffold setup if required."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
That is an answer for Steve in post #1.
What to charge for interior trim work is the name of the thread. I gave a simple price structure to quickly come up with a trim price for the basics on an entire house.
If it is high end there will be extras...cabinets, wall caps, walk in closets, columns, faux beams, Deacon's benches, a pantry, a bar, a wine cellar, a home theater, garage cabinets, stairways, railings, wainscotting, attic hatches, tub enclosures, chair rail, fireplace mantles, bookcases....
And people are jumping on me for pricing $50 a room for crown???
I don't know how high the ceilings are, but if they are 10', fire the 5'-06" helper and hire one who is 6'-08" ;~)"Perfect is the enemy of Good." Morrison
Gordsco,I don't think your prices sound bad, depends on the material. I like to think of trim jobs as being priced by the cut. Therefore $50 gets you a 15'x15' square room for $6.25 a cut. A two piece base would run $100 for the same room. If the room is larger and requires a scarf joint then there are four more cuts and another $25. If a crown needs deadwood then there are cut counts on that too. Of course stain grade costs more than paint grade and different moldings/molding sizes are different costs too. Just think of it as "how many times do I need to walk to my saw" or better "how many times do I need to be accurate" because a trained monkey can measure,mark,and cut but only a real carpenter can measure, mark, and cut accurately.gk
You're hired! I can sit and watch you work, pay you, and still make some cash.
I've got $75 / pre hung for three years and am gonna bring that up soon.
Edited 3/25/2008 9:17 pm ET by MSA1
I charge more too, $65 per door if I route the hinges. $10 more for pre-hung. Headers $5 per cut piece, plinth blocks $2.50 ea. install latchset $5.
So a pre-hung door with simple return headers and plinths both sides and latch. $120
Do I still get the job?
"Perfect is the enemy of Good." Morrison
lol that's what I was thinking..
.
"Thank goodness for the Democrats! If you are terminally unemployable, enjoy living off of govt welfare and feel you owe society nothing you're in luck: there is a donkey waiting for you."
Will you come work for me? Crown a room-$50?
Will you come work for me?
Get in line...
(I'm waiting for Steve to hire me for the Ranch)"Perfect is the enemy of Good." Morrison
I can't come close to doing crown at the same price as base. Bedmold maybe, but not crown.
But I'll do most rooms for 200
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Based on the entire house being trimmed I'd give the customer a deal on basic crown.
Basic crown, not built-up 3 pc 10" dentil crown, 10' of the floor with angled walls with one 60º inside cope and octagon column corners.
(That would be so much fun it would be hard to charge for ;~)"Perfect is the enemy of Good." Morrison
that does sound like fun - love doing crown"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
gordsco — "Based on the entire house being trimmed I'd give the customer a deal on basic crown."
Why?
If anything I would charge the correctly set up (and value added) rate for the crown and give them a break on something that was easier, simpler, and low risk like throwing in bed mold as a loss leader. You don't give away or discount the high value (or high risk) work. And while crown isn't really high risk it is higher risk than bed, base or chair molding so I am very certainly not seeing just what your thinking is.
It's very easy to get into a job and discover that the ceiling have a whoop or dip to them making a perfect crown installation more difficult an time consuming. Better to give away something that is less noticeable that you are 1000% confident you wont run into any trouble with.
View Image
The assumption is:
This is new construction.
I'm installing the baseboard, trim and doors in all rooms.
There are other finish contractors bidding on this job.
With my equipment already employed, popping up a few pieces of basic crown is not such a big deal. When I was finishing, 3½" paint grade crown in a 14'X12' bedroom, added about 45 minutes to the room. While I was cutting and coping, my helper was nailing the rest of the trim.
In many cases, because of the price, customers opted for crown in rooms they had not originally intended. Each of those rooms was a net gain.
It is only possible to install crown at that price if you are already working that room.
My prices for crown outside that scenario, begin at $2.50 per lin/ft.
"Perfect is the enemy of Good." Morrison
gordsco — "With my equipment already employed, popping up a few pieces of basic crown is not such a big deal. When I was finishing, 3½" paint grade crown in a 14'X12' bedroom, added about 45 minutes to the room. While I was cutting and coping, my helper was nailing the rest of the trim."
In case you hadn't figured it out yet I'm having a real problem reconciling or agreeing with your pricing methodology so that's why I am pursuing this the way I am.
First of all as I alluded to in one of my earlier posts (msg=102690.33) I think posting dollar figures for work can be dangerously misleading and is therefore virtually useless. Taking your figure of "Crown per room $50" we would have to be in and out of that room in 35 minutes for that to work with our billing rate structure and as good as we are that just ain't gonna happen.
Also do your typical rooms have 4 corners. What happens when there is a simple column box in each corner of the room giving you 12 corners to cut (8 inside and 4 outside)? What if there are even more jogs in the wall?
And for arguements sake lets say the rooms are simple 4 corner rooms do you charge the same $50 per room for the 12 x 13 rooms as you do for one that is 18 x 28? The 18 x 28 room has 84% more crown than the 12 x 13 one does.
As for "Crown per room $50" and "Baseboard per room $50" industry benchmarks generally show (and our own company reporting bears this out too) that crown is 20% (18-22%) more labor intensive to install than base or chair molding even before you begin to consider scaffolding or other work platforms that may or may not be required.
"In many cases, because of the price, customers opted for crown in rooms they had not originally intended. Each of those rooms was a net gain
It is only possible to install crown at that price if you are already working that room."
I don't think so. Your logic is flawed. How can the crown be a net gain if you are giving it away as a loss leader? Either you are over priced on your base or under priced on your crown. If you are over priced on your base installs then you are giving back your 'windfall' when you install crown in a room and if the later is true that you are under priced on your crown then you are installing the crown at a loss.
"My prices for crown outside that scenario, begin at $2.50 per lin/ft."
There we go with the dollar figures again. In our area we're at least 70% more than that for a labor only install. The exchange and comparison of dollar figures in this and other forums are really just meaningless.
And just h ow do you come up with that "$2.50 per lin/ft." number in the first place? if your were to give your helper a $1.00 per hour raise how would it affect that number? If you worker comp rate went up how would that change that number?
I think it's a far better and far more robust method to think of pricing your work in terms of the time required to install a particular unit and then multiply that by a well thought out hourly Loaded Labor Rate.
View Image
You quoted a 20% higher average install cost for crown compared to baseboard. By your figures this would raise my crown price per room to $60.
Jerrald, your market is obviously different from mine. I would also assume your prices per door are much higher than $50. So if your door prices are $75 to $85 to $120 would it work for you to translate that same number for basic 4 wall crown?
Yes, more corners, more angles, larger and taller rooms could double, triple or octuple the price for crown
I am not adamant about $50 crown, and I was not trying to mislead the original poster who was uncertain about how to price finish carpentry. An independent, with little overhead could make money pricing a job with the $50 rule of thumb or if the market was different, a $100 rule of thumb. Pricing this way, also speeds up the bid, and not spend unbillable hrs. measuring the lin/ft of every room.
"Perfect is the enemy of Good." Morrison
Edited 3/29/2008 1:42 am by gordsco
"also speeds up the bid, and not spend unbillable hrs. measuring the lin/ft of every room."
if you don't measure, then how much crown do you buy? View Image View Image
This topic is about labor onlyJohn Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
not anymore...and it shouldn't be unless customer is supplying all material, and OP didn't say customer was. So you you need to know how much to buy and factor that in as part of the "what to charge for interior trim work".
don't know about you but I hate having to run back to the yard for being one piece short, and also eat the cost of being short.
View Image View Image
Edited 3/31/2008 10:21 am by alrightythen
if you don't measure, then how much crown do you buy?
Where I'm from, trim supplies are part of the new house package.
I assume that I am by and paid by the GC and not the homeowner.
It would be the GC's responsibility to discuss door styles. trim sizes, etc. Although, I could be consulted for custom items, such as mantles, columns, bookcases, or walk-in closets after I have the job.
Supplying material puts me in a position I don't like to be in...
First off, who pays for material if other subcontractors walk on and damage the trim before it is installed?
After it is installed?
Since I am not supplying jobsite security, who pays for material if it is missing?
Who changes the order if the homeowner says," Mmmm, I don't like that molding after all."?
"Perfect is the enemy of Good." Morrison
Yes most new house construction you won't have to worry about material supply.
many other jobs can be supply. Which also allows you to make some money as well. I can get trim 1/2 the price what joe off the street can, so makes sense to make money where money can be made. View Image View Image
none
My name is Brandon I have been in the trades for about 12 years. I got my experience in plaes like Salt lake back when the housing market was awesome. Since then i have done alot of commercial work which i hated so recently I quit the commute and went out on my own. The area in southern ohio where i live has no economy and no market. Im educated in running blow and go trim for .40$ a ft or building custom rails for 20 a ft. but those where prices set for me and they where give or take.But anyway i was listening to you on a forum and you sound like someone i would like to ask a question now and then. I do about all carpentry work right now me and my helper are finisning up a hanging and finishing gig. My first question is you lay tile? I do and i do well at it i like adding my lil touch but i got a lot of marble 12*12 and have no idea what its worth.
Hi Steve,
Here is a sample of what I do.....
Base trim (simple 2 1/4" colonial) 3.50 per linear foot
Windows are $60 per window
Interior doors with door / hardware / trim entire door would be approx. $260 per door
Watch the discussion on crowns there... those #'s are really cheap... depending on the crowns, I would get anywhere from $5 to $7.50 per linear foot... which may sound high, but think about it... a 10x10 room would run about $200 to do... keep in mind thats with me providing the material.....
As a note, just watch the materials that some customers pick out, of course trim that is getting built up involves a lot of work and time, thats where you could ge whacked.....
Good luck.
We're talking labor only of course.It's hard enough to generalize over labor, let alone throwing material into the mix.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
Wow!
I would only need to trim one house a month at those prices around here!
Yeah, only problem with trim work is that you are usually the one trimming the mansions...... not living in them! hahahahahah
your not the guy that hosted this old house are you? anyway, been trimming houses for a long time. took me years to fine tune my prices. every time I hire new people, I have to watch things for a while and compare cause the pricing will have to change to accommodate the producton rate they have. I'm not so fast myself anymore. years of crawling on the floor doing base has left me with torn cartiledge in my knees. Looking back, wish I charged more.
Just use common sense, think about how long it takes you to hang a door,trim, lockset,etc and figure out what the hourly rate needs to be and you will be able to figure a price per door. remeber to figure in in time for humping the doors thru the house, set up time, break down time, cleanup, etc.
framing is also important - one builder I can hang 10 - 12 prehung doors in 8 hrs, another builder 8 doors is a push. its not cut and dry as you can see.
some casings are harder to mite than others, stain grade trim takes more time, cutting near the work or far away can add a lot of time. I like to have one guy cut ad another nail on running trim - seems to have a faster production speed.
finally, anything unusual I have an hourly rate clause (mantles, access panels, unusual details, flex trim, high work, milling trim, etc) it gives me a way to pad the bill if I'm coming up short with the piecework.
good luck,
Jason
"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."
Bozini Latini
http://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
Not at al surprisingly this topical question has come up here before (many many times in fact).
Taking what I written in the past on this subject both here and over in the JLC and Woodweb forums I wrote this and put it in one of my blogs as Producing an Interior Finish Bid but to sum it up what you really need to do is develop a Unit Cost estimating system that works for you, In other words it's based on your real costs for running a business and your real targets for what you (and your business plan to earn).
While I understand and appreciate Gordsco's generosity and desire to help in giving you some real numbers for pricing I think they are virtually useless and potentially even dangerous to use. Gordsco is doing his work up in Nova Scotia Canada and the job you are bidding on is going to happen in southern CT. Even putting aside the currency exchange rate differences between US and Canada there are regional differences in costs for labor as well as what costs make up your Overhead for ding business here around the states. For example I've seen contractors from Texas post the billing rates here that they charge to their customers that were equivalent to just what I have to pay my labor here in NY as a wage so using dollar rates you hear or see someone posting online can potentially get you in a lot of trouble with either a price that is too high for you to get the job or one that is so low you'll end up paying for it out of your own pocket.
Plus no mention was made of whether those prices include materials or not (I just assumed they didn't).
Calvin brought up some good points that fit in with what I written in Producing an Interior Finish Bid in that things like "Is the house being lived in? Furniture? Can you set up inside?" are all things that need to be considered and costed out too.
And Shep makes good points too in considering should you charge by the cut or piece vs. by the linear foot. In my company we charge using a hybrid system in that we figure the installation of running trim by the linear foot but add 'by the cut' pricing when the cutting and placing of the running trim will exceed what we consider normal or typical.
Also pricing the installation of running trim "by the room" ignores both the fact that the larger the room the more linear feet of trim that will have to be placed and depending upon the number of jogs in the wall planes the linear footage will again be different plus more importantly the number of cuts will increase dramatically increasing the time involved in placing the trim.
And what about the time spent placing and setting up scaffolding or work platforms? So ceiling trim jobs require it while some don't. Hvtrimguy is smart enough to let you know that need to charge for that too (along with some other excellent hints).
My suggestion for you would be to work on develop your own specific set of Unit Cost figures for the time you expect it will take to perform/install a certain quantity of a material. You then take that time figure and multiply it by the quantity to come up with the total time involved for that material and then multiply that number by your hourly Loaded Labor Rate. While it really another topic altogether if you need to figure out just what your Loaded Labor Rate should be I would suggest you pick up and read How Much Should I Charge?: Pricing Basics for Making Money Doing What You Love by Ellen Rohr and if you need help crunching the numbers I have a piece of shareware I've developed that if you have Excel or Apple's Numbers you can use it to help you figure your rate: The Capacity Based Markup Worksheet (also known as the " PILAO" Worksheet).
This job you are looking at isn't down in Westport on the water by any chance (well almost on the water, the sound is across the street)? We're going down there next week to look at a project.
View Image
Great thread.
I'm curious, what is the hourly rate range charge for any miscellaneous stuff?
Runnerguy
What ever the the Market will Bear!
I'm in the same boat as you--done lots of trim, but not experienced at quick pricing on large trim jobs. I'd go room by room and estimate each element. Looking at how well the windows are installed might make my window trim costs go up 2x, same for sheetrock and base.
Still, I underestimate these jobs by about 25% since there are so many small details that chew up time that many guys try to leave, but I'd rather fix to make it right, so I'll add that 25% to my best guess.
Cheers
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
do a quick material take off - double it
then geusstimate how long it will take - add 20 percent
add those
tack on $ 100 a day for contingincy/profit
Unless your answer was toung-in-cheek, that's a good way to price yourself out of the job.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
actually, I close everything I look at.
its a pretty good way to give a ballpark figure. you can fine tune from there
"actually, I close everything I look at."
Now there's a credible statement.
That would make you the most awsome salesman of all time, or your prices are way too cheap even with doubling the material cost.
Either way that's amazing.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
And he flys fighter jets for the USN!!.
.
"Thank goodness for the Democrats! If you are terminally unemployable, enjoy living off of govt welfare and feel you owe society nothing you're in luck: there is a donkey waiting for you."
Sorry....I can't get passed "high end ranch house".
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Pp, Qq
JD I'm sorry if I misled you with "high end ranch". I am orginally from the midwest and a three bed ranch was a starter home, no crown, 3.5 baseboard, clam casings and plywood kitchen cabinets. This house will have all the bells and whistles, granite, marble, hardwoodfloors, wifi, stainless everywhere, things I feel make it a high end but small (not mcmansion) residence
I know Steve....I was just bustin' em.
The stereotypical ranch house is a far cry from the stereotypical high end home.
But I recognize that what we have come to expect with certain styles, aint always the case. (I'm picturing a "high end" salt box I renovated some years ago.)
I read through the thread and felt you had received all of the help I could have offered, so I decided to have some fun anyway.
Best of luck.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Pp, Qq
I charged by the cut plus a nominal fee to cover my drive and tools etc.
It would take me just as long to base a closet as it did a bedroom.
I would either look at plans and figure how many corners (cuts) or visit the actual house and do the same. Linear feet and square footage mean nothing.
What you charge per task depends on how efficient you are and how hard you want to work.
Pre-hung hollow core standard doors were $45, which looked like a bargain for the customer until they witness my super human methode of hanging 3.5 doors per hour!
.
.
"Thank goodness for the Democrats! If you are terminally unemployable, enjoy living off of govt welfare and feel you owe society nothing you're in luck: there is a donkey waiting for you."