*
Sather,
Pre-fab walls (or “panelized” walls) are definitely the present and future of home building. I have been a “stick” builder for 18 years and last year experiemented with a panelized custom frame. The 2200 sq. ft. 2 story home was set and framing complete in 2-1/2 days by a three man crew. The floors were also panelized sections. What I found as benifits were the time savings and the home was not exposed to the weather for very long. The minuses were more than I hoped for however. The stair systems from the factory did not fit and the second shipment of stairs from the factory did not fit also. I custom built the stairs myself. The front porch trusses had a built in sag, requiring a few hours of my time to fix. There were a few other small items that were not up to my standards and the factory would not correct them. The set crew (sent by the factory and I was told it was their best crew) were butchers only interested in finishing quickly. The costs of materials and labor were about $1,000. more than I could have stick framed the home for also. My conclusions from this experience are; I like the panelization concept but I will continue to stick build until I find the right factory. Production builders building the same plans over and over will benifit greatly from panelization but custom building is a different ball game. Training your own crew to set the panelized frames may be the answer to quality issues. I would also like to see more competitve pricing.
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
Fine Homebuilding's editorial director has some fun news to share.
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
*
Sather,
Pre-fab walls (or "panelized" walls) are definitely the present and future of home building. I have been a "stick" builder for 18 years and last year experiemented with a panelized custom frame. The 2200 sq. ft. 2 story home was set and framing complete in 2-1/2 days by a three man crew. The floors were also panelized sections. What I found as benifits were the time savings and the home was not exposed to the weather for very long. The minuses were more than I hoped for however. The stair systems from the factory did not fit and the second shipment of stairs from the factory did not fit also. I custom built the stairs myself. The front porch trusses had a built in sag, requiring a few hours of my time to fix. There were a few other small items that were not up to my standards and the factory would not correct them. The set crew (sent by the factory and I was told it was their best crew) were butchers only interested in finishing quickly. The costs of materials and labor were about $1,000. more than I could have stick framed the home for also. My conclusions from this experience are; I like the panelization concept but I will continue to stick build until I find the right factory. Production builders building the same plans over and over will benifit greatly from panelization but custom building is a different ball game. Training your own crew to set the panelized frames may be the answer to quality issues. I would also like to see more competitve pricing.
*
Is there any real difference between trucking the material to a building site, assembling the wall and raising it; and trucking the material to a factory, assembling the wall, trucking it to the site and raising it? One extra transportation step is all I see. Maybe that is offset by keeping everthing dry, using jigs, more comfortable working conditions, etc.
For large scale projects probably the way to go.
*
Factory built panels and housing has always been popular in the northern states with the severe winter weather. I like the idea of a house being framed in two days. Shoveling out a partially framed home after a heavy snow is no picnic.
*
I don't see what you gain by it, unless you want to move into contracting and away from carpentry. That's a few week's work per house you are "subbing out". Don't you have to do a higher volume per year to compenstae for that lack of work?
There I go, thinkin' like my grandfather again. It's just that I really like carpentry. Foundations, framing, trim, even the occasional roof. I would rather do any of those tasks than spend the day in the office coordinating changes with a factory. - jb
*Thanks for the response so far. Jim, I agree with you across the board, you have to remember where I am right now (in a design/construction program), and that many of the "academic prophets" are touting panelization as the future of building. I for one hope that it never becomes as big as some people predict, although I can bet we'll see it more and more especially in those building developments that are the same houses with different addresses. I sort of get worried(as a aspiring carpenter)that I will finally be worth something on the site, and become obsolete at the same time. I posted this to hear from you guys about predictions, opinions, and actual experience with panelization. Hope that carpenters stay carpenters and factories stay factories.
*Sather - I don't want to sidetrack your thread completely, but I will say that you have little to fear. As home building gets more and more specialized (even to the extreme of panelized framing) there are fewer and fewer of what we think of as "carpenters". No, you may not be able to frame as fast as a framer, or shingle a roof as fast as a roofer, but having a broader range of skills will make you rarer and rarer as this stratification evolves. The specialists may in fact already dominate the new housing industry, but remodeling still belongs to carpenters, and I think it always will. - jb
*
It's just another symbol of old style craftsmanship and
skill being replaced with prefab, mindless, kitformed crap.
I'm sure there's something good about it too, but I would
like to keep building walls piece by piece, that way
everything fits, and I don't have to worry about losing my
job to another assembler.
MD
c
*
This thread has taken what I think is a good turn. In fact today's new construction is in many cases really no different than what we would think of as "factory". Specialists in each phase go from site to site doing their thing. All that is missing is the walls and the efficiency that comes from doing it all in a central location.
Remodeling though is a whole different game. Now the worker has to be much more broadly skilled and experienced, for now. When the remodeling game moves to today's houses, in 10 -20 years I think it too will change. Today's mass built houses probably lend themselves more to demo and rebuild than the type of remodel most of us are familiar with. So, that game will change too.
As the old saying goes: Nothing is constant but change. So you have to run just to stay in the same place.
*Fred - I think the remodeler of the future will still have to be able to do some drywalling and taping, a little roofing, a little plumbing and wiring, some trim and cabinetry, as well as understand structural framing and concrete. The problems I see with using specialists in remodeling are scheduling, control and cost. I often work one area of a remodel to completion then move to the other end of the house for another "phase". Even if you could somehow schedule subs for a few hours now, and a few days next week, it seems an expensive approach. How will panelized walls change that? - jb
*I have to admit that I used to think "new" construction was the way to go, but find myself more and more intrigued by the problems of remodeling. Seems to draw on more skills as you guys have stated. From a different point of view, I think that how far this pre-fab wall idea goes is up to us. The "get it done and move on" guys will go for it, but from previous posts it seems like the majority of you go for the custom, challenging work. I think that the cost, lag time, inability to easily adapt or change, and weight would be a problem from a remodel POV. Since I'm in school right now I have access to wierd journals (Forest Products Technology, Wood Products Journal, etc.), you should see how they look at builders, just numbers with comments like "reluctance to change", "inability to integrate new wood products". From that end it is going to be supply and demand. If we want straight, engineered studs that are affordable and maximize wood use then we have to demand them. Cash is the bottom line for these guys and we should work them to get what you want on the site. I for one would like to see the best of both worlds, jobs that challenge us, and products that work and don't waste resources. Sorry if I went on too long on my own post, just feel strongly about this stuff.
*Jim:I thought we had moved beyond a literal pre-fab wall thread to "factory" building, of which prefab walls are the most visible part.After watching some of the large corporation housing go up in the rockies I have had to change my mind on the future of house construction. There is no doubt the goal now is not worker satisfaction in a job well done(a major theme on this board) but is maximum profit for the builder and customer satisfaction.Therefore, in my lifetime I expect new construction to continually change for more efficiency(and profits). The houses will not support the kind of remodeling we have been accustomed to. Instead, at the very least to stay competitive the remodeler will need to be more of a scheduler and manager and the trades will need to be more flexible. Even then, because of the way houses are put together the kind of major structural remodel that is common now will become less and less competitive when compared to a strip and rebuild.So, we will need to look at ourselves not as carpenters, masons, etc. but as builders selling housing. Similiar work but with a large difference in the work detail.
*This subject has been discussed quite a bit before. Check out:http://205.181.179.43:8090/WebX?128@@.ee7f29eAlso, check out this one. "Building houses with pre-fab panels" 7/24/99 9:35pmYou should find plenty ofinfo there.
*Thanks for the info on older posts, as a fairly new visitor I appreciate it. I'll try to do better research prior to posting next time. Thanks.
*
Sather,
I wouldn't worry about posting something that's been covered before, the archives are so huge and if your computer is as slow as mine, it takes forever to wade through. It's a good question. I guess what we like least about the way houses are built now is the wave of the future. I just don't want to slam up houses that all look the same. I wonder what the future of home architects will look like?
MD
*
Doesn't sound to me like your problem is with panelized construction in general, but just with that particular supplier.
I've made my share of mistakes, and had to deal with my share of mistakes from the plant, but I've always owned up to them. I've never turned down a request for a backcharge that was reasonable.
Seems to me that the customers have the upper hand in matters like this. (Maybe I shouldn't be telling you this !!) If your supplier genuinely screws something up, just backcharge them. (I would ask, however, that you allow for some difference of opinion - not everyone views things the same way) You mentioned on this job that you were out both time and materials. Did you deduct them from your bill ? did you make sure the supplier knew what was wrong ?
Keep on 'em, or take your business elsewhere. There should be plenty of other plants willing to step in and work with you.
*
I'm not a carpenter or builder but an Engineer. A few thoughts come to mind.
I believe that the panelized approach reduces the time to "close up" a structure. Whether walls of 2x4's, 2x6's sheathing, insulation and drywall built on site with pnumatic nailers and power tools or built in a factory with the same, and assembled on site. To call either "craftmanship" is a stretch when dealing with typical residential construction. (I'm sure that statement will make me popular) However, because it's not considered "old world craftmanship" does not mean it's a bad thing.
Much of the American population can barely afford to get into what would be considered "entry level" or "low cost" housing. If someone can devise a way to make construction more efficient, and safe for the worker, this can hardly be called a bad thing.
The fact is that today's houses are better designed and built than any before them. The old colonial homes that we all gawk at are the best of the best, for the time they were built. The other 99.9 percent have long fallen or burned down.
*
Sather:
Another vote for more discussion. On things like tools a trip to the archives is probably more efficient, at least until the models change. But for something like this it is a good way for all of us to sort of talk out our ideas that will drive what we do and maybe what the industry does.
M's post brings up a good point. Sort of like the gun collector; only able to collect what was stored in the closet or was lucky enough to survive. The rest are used up or are long gone to decay.
Whether they are better, or just more fitted to today's lifestyles is something time will tell. We have had a lot of new material failures in the last 20 years so what others are out there waiting to bite the owners and builders is open to anyone's guess.
*
M Duval:
Good guess. I would take serious offense to your dismissal
of rough carpentry as "craftsmanship" even if you think all
carpenters just slap up studs. I'll have you know that
there is a definite art to nailing studs the way we do,
toenailing with hammers, not nail guns. We try to make
every cut, every driven nail, screw, whatever, as perfect
and efficient as possible with as little room for error down
the line in construction as possible, even on "entry level"
construction, if there is actually still that sort of thing.
It also goes for everything we do use nail guns for. They
are just like hammers only faster; the nails are still
carefully aimed and driven home if not seated properly.
MD
*
Mad Dog and Company:
I had to hold myself back a bit on the "craftsman" dig, but then MDuval said it would raise hackels. This post has gotten some varied responses, I like the way that they can branch off as each person adds a little more to the mix. I read yesterday in Forest Products Journal that "the lack of qualified carpenters is pushing many builders towards pre-fabricated components". They didn't back it up with any other info, but my guess is that they are talking about the slap-em-up developments that no self-respecting carpenter wants to work at anyway. There is such a divide in this country between the application people and the idea people, ignorance breeds contempt and the ability to say things about work quality that has no basis in reality. My wife is always trying to settle me down when people say that "carpentry, tile, etc isn't that hard". I love to watch them really set out to work and wrestle for 10 minutes toenailing a stud in the wrong place. I'm ranting now, so I'll just say that we will just have to take our own pride in what we do and that if we enjoy it that's all there is. If it's true what they say about the lack of good carpenters, then maybe they'll give us a little more money......
*
Sather, you bring another good point, sadly: I'm reading into it that yes, maybe those of us who care more about doing quality work than the pay, should just enjoy ourselves as much as possible while this IS still possible, and forget about the industry trends, future corner-cutting cost-saving means to a less labor-intensive end. Just let the thing run its course and let the chips fall where they may, and not raise any hell in the meantime.
However, I cannot let my carpenter ancestors rest peaceably if I don't fight back. They were true craftsmen, better at their work than anything else, and what they made and built stands solidly through the test of time. Why should we let their legacy of craftsmanship die just to save a buck or make things easier (Quicker?) and use more fabricated, environmentally unfriendly materials? Maybe we do have some sort of say. I'd like to see things change for the better, believe in sort of a renaissance of craftsmanship, someday.
MD
*
IMHO - pre-fab walls will one day have the equivalent market share of roof trusses. There will always be a need for custom "stick building" carpenters, but probably not at the levels we see now.
Anybody know of any good publically traded companies making wall panels, or of any IPO's for this type of company? Their stocks may be worth checking out.
*Re: CraftsmanshipIt isn't the tools used that makes Craftsmanship, it is the skill of the tool user.Those that mistake the two are doomed to fuzzy vision.
*Bob, Mad Dog, et al.:More good responses, have really been enjoying the different pov's. I too hope to fly in the face of the cutting corners approach and stick with craftsmanship . I figure that if all I wanted to do was make money, there are a million better ways to do it than being a builder/carpenter. I think Bob had a good point on the market share idea, will mean that the carpenters who can do the custom work will be in demand more than ever and will get the interesting projects. I have been looking at some of the engineered lumber companies as ones to watch if anyone has $500 to buy stocks. As a grad. student in the Wood Construction/Design field most of our attention is focused on the new products out there. There is no doubt that dimensional lumber in the conventional sense is on the way out. The new materials will work with the same tools and some new techniques. Sort of an exciting yet uncertain time to be building. Wish that things were the way they were 45 years ago in terms of wood, time frame to finish a house, etc., but they're not. Have to become craftsmen and women of the new world. Look at this medium of exchange for example......
*
Well, to me, if you invest in the company that makes the
stuff, it could be looked at in two ways: one, it makes for
hypocritical sandwich or two, give up and get on with
it--and why not make a buck or two if it works! The smart
mone
*
Seems odd to me that everyone thinks it's possible for a carpenter stick building on site to be a "craftsman", but not a guy who works in a wall panel plant.
We're all hiring out of the same labor pool............
*Sather & allI just got finished reading this post and decided to put up a post concerning Steel Frame Homes on the main page. Give it a look & leave your comments. Have enjoyed reading all the comments on all the subjects on this forum. Have learned a lot and had a good laugh a time or 2.Vince
*
I have been seeing a lot of info on Pre-Fabricated or factory built wall panels lately and wanted to know what experienced builders think about them. See the latest FHB for a short article on regional suppliers. Does anyone think that this is the wave of the future. I have seen this done in a very "craftsmanlike" fashion for homes in Switzerland and Finland, but what about here in the states. Note that I'm asking about panels built to prints and not structural osb/foam components. Interested to hear what you vets think.