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I don’t have a problem with it, but I’m a woodworker. So, as long as there’s wood to work with, great. Maybe if enough guys get into steel framing, the wood supply will get better! So be it.
MD
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I don't have a problem with it, but I'm a woodworker. So, as long as there's wood to work with, great. Maybe if enough guys get into steel framing, the wood supply will get better! So be it.
MD
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I have done 4 houses and remodels with steel studs. LOVE EM,
LOVE EM, LOVE EM. You still need to be a good carpenter to be successful with them.
cc
*Vince,We are Icynene foam insulation contractors and have worked with steel on many occasions. It sure seems to be the future. In our area of the midwest, we still have problems with the unions. It seems that the fight is over whether it should be commercial pay scale or residential. Who knows if it will really catch on here.Sue
*I have worked very little with steel framing, however I am of the impression that, with respect to residential construction, the main disadvantage is lack of building envelope energy efficiency - ie: thermal transfer. I am aware that this can be addressed with double studed walls, (as with wood framed walls) however the idea of having to double stud just to get, basically, what wood framing has to offer in a standard configuration does not seem like such a good deal. Perhaps it is less of an issue in cooling climates or in situations where thick, high R-value sheathing (thermal break) is more of the norm than in the mild climate where I live.Just my thoughts...
*VinceI do not have a problem with steel studs themselves. It doesnt make me feel any less a carpenter. But I have yet to see or do a building with steel studs that met my expectations when it comes to the details. The screw heads cause rock to bump out. God help you if your client wants crown mold or chair rail that you didnt put blocking in for. I keep getting told that there are ways around this but I just havent seen it. Also cutting a simple hole in the wall becomes a pain in the butt.As for lumber, we were spoiled by the past few decades. pre ww2 much of the lumber was s2s and from the old stuff I have pulled out of houses it was not straight or diminisonally true.Steel has been around a long time. But it doesnt have the versitility of wood. Concrete is replacing it fast around here as exteriorwall of choice (commercial). Rick Tuk
*We love steel, We use ICF's for exterior walls, and steel for the rest. I was a convert to steel, but I believe the steel industry has done a poor job of representing the issues of energy efficiency and fire resistance. First, the energy efficiency is terrible, no matter how you look at it.....so many tests and studies prove it. As for fire, true the steel doesn't contribute, but they fail damned near immediately after the heat of the fire (from all the burning crap inside the house). We still recommend steel stud walls, and roof systems, but the fire discounts are not there like concrete. I had one firefighter tell me that once the fire dept figures out that the house is steel, they will not go inside, for fear that the whole thing will collapse on them...Just like mobilehomes. We are working with a European Company to use a concrete poured in place floor and roof system that can be installed turn-key for $3.00 per sf.....To answer your question, "cold in the winter and hot in the summer", On a serious note, who is your supplier? we are currently using the House Factory, SteelMax out of Austin is not a favorite here...Almost anything beats wood. Ian in Texas
*Besides, a steel framed house makes a great antenna if it is bonded together. Will make sure all the rf in the neighborhood comes to visit.
*I have framed with steel, wood, SIPs, ICF, and engineered lumber. For exterior walls it is by far my last choice. To get any kind of TRUE thermal performance it is the most expensive choice both to build and for HVAC to the owner. My house whitch is not steel costs less than $70 a year to heat and cool in NY.
*Thanks everyone. Hope this keeps up and doesn't die down.Mad DogI still love working with wood and don't turn down a job if that is what the customer wants.ccI'm like you. Wood is my first love, but steel is running a very close second. You still need to be a good craftsman in whatever you do!Sue V.Glad to finally see an Icynene dealer on this forum. Wish you had been here a while back when someone was asking about that new spray-in insulation they saw on "This Old House". From my responses, you would have thought I was an Icynene dealer. I am completely sold on Icynene insulation and prefer it as my insulation of choice. As for unions, they have their good & bad points. Personally, I try to avoid jobs that require union labor. I could never understand why there would be 2 different rates to put up the same size wall, etc.Matt G.As in all construction, a good quality builder will do everything he/she can to give the best envelope energy efficiency possible. In my case, as a Tri-Steel Structures dealer, I offer 3 different kind of steel frame homes:LIFETIME Homes uses Red Iron cold-rolled steel every 8' oc for structural support with light gauge studs every 2' oc in-between. SILVERWOOD Homes is a custom built home with structural grade steel replacing the 2x wood members. QUICKSILVER Homes is a unique design in that it has structural steel members every 4' oc with 1 1/2" channels/hats/purlins every 2' oc running at 90 degrees to the structural members.With all homes, I install wood sheathing on all exterior walls, not just at the corners. The QUICKSILVER models offer very little thermal transfer. For the LIFETIME & SILVERWOOD models, I install 3/4" polystyrene T&G panels to prevent thermal transfer. Here in central Oklahoma, we have some very hot summers, in the high 90's and low 100's and in the winter, it gets very close to or below freezing quite a few times. We don't get enough snow to go skiing, but have had ice on the ground for days at a time.RickYou cannot tell a home has been built of steel once it is finished if the right materials are used. This includes using pan-head screws where sheet rock meets the studs and screws. As for crown mold, baseboards or chair railing, we do it the same as for a wood frame home, we cut to fit, install a dab of adhesive every couple of feet and use our finish nails driven at an angle (one facing downward & one facing upward) to attach it to the wall. Cutting holes or openings in a wall is no different than on a wood frame home.IanFor energy efficiency, see my remarks above. Insurance - the steel industry is working with the insurance industry to do studies & tests in order to try and reduce the rates for steel frame home. Notice the TV ads lately about steel sponsored by the Steel Alliance Association? Check with you local or state Fire Marshall. What are the leading causes of fires in the home? * Kitchen grease fires, * smoking related fires (smoking in bed and falling asleep, dropped cigarette butt in the sofa or recliner) * overloaded extension cords * overloaded electrical outlets (causing outlet box to overheat and igniting the "wood" stud to which it is attached. We cannot do anything about the kitchen, smoking and extension cord related fires, but by having a metal stud instead of a wood stud, we are helping prevent that "in the wall" fire. Metal studs, used in conjunction with Icynene foam (here is a plug for you Sue) help reduce in wall fires. A fire requires 3 things: Oxygen, heat & a combustible material. Metal will not burn when a flame is held to it and Icynene will burn as long a flame is held to it, but goes out as soon as the flame is removed (heat does not cause spontaneous combustion). I am a former volunteer firefighter and know what a mobile home fire is like.Can you send me some info on that European company with the poured concrete system (a hot item here after the recent tornadoes last May.A quality built steel frame home is completely bonded and grounded and does not "draw" any more rf than a wood home.Ron$ 6.00 a month to heat & cool? Tell me more !!!!! The last house we finished was a 1200sf home with Icynene insulation, total electric and their highest electric bill was for $72.00 this past summer during the hottest month (high 90's & low 100's)Again to all, thanks for the responses and hope to see more.Vince
*I haven'r been impressed with steel yet. I'm not against it, I'm just not a big fan. We've looked at building steel trusses in the plant I work at. But they're expensive to build, so there hasn't been much interest from contractors. (They run about 60% more than wood trusses) It kind of annoys me - One of the things that keeps getting thrown up in our face is that steel is more stable in price, and doesn't fluctuate like lumber does. I've tried suggesting that we raise our truss prices 10-20%, and guarantee price stability for a year or so, but no one seems to be in favor of that................(-:Seems to me that there might be other, unexpected problems with steel framing. Like how do you fasten wood sub-fascia to the ends of steel rafters or trusses ?Also, what about remodelling down the road ? The average homeowner doesn't posess the skills to work with steel framing when they eventually want to move a wall or something. One final point that really gripes me is the advertising slogan used by the steel industry, saying that steel framing is "recycleable". If you tear down a house, are you going to pick out all the steel framing, remove all the drywall and sheathing, just to recycle it for 3 cents a pound ? I tend to think that's unlikely, and the advertising is misleading. Seems to me that wood is a renewable resource, and steel isn't. That alone makes it a more "environmentally friendly".
*Vince,My house was built in the 50's as a 700sf one story ranch. I attached a ledger to the foundation and built an new wall 9.5" out from the old wall that I insulated with Icynene. The roof was removed an I built a second story with 11 7/8" TJIs as wall studs. The second story is insulated with DP cellulose in the walls and loose cellulose with Icynene scraps in the attic. Heat is from an oil fired Buderus boiler with a Riello burner supplied with outside combustion air. A/C is a geothermal heat pump. Secondary heat source is 3 stray cats.Ron
*Ron<>There are a couple of ways to handle this. If the home I'm building is part of a Tri-Steel package, they supply a metal sub-fascia to attach to the end of the rafter tails. If I'm building a stick built metal home, I have a local supply that has the metal bent for me. It consists of a flat piece of 18 gauge metal 12" wide by 10' long. It is bent on one edge at a 90 degree angle and the other edge is bent to match the pitch of the roof. We pop a chalk line on the rafter tails and then use pan-head screws to attach it. We attach a 2" angle to the wall and then place out lookouts between the lower lip of the fascia and the angle. With this arrangement, The finish fascia can now be installed.>The average homeowner will have no more problems with an interior metal stud wall that they would have with wood. In fact, it will probable be easier since the studs are screwed from the sides at the top and bottom vice end nailing thru the top and bottom plates.<>I think you might be confusing where the recycling plays a part in a steel frame home. The recycling part comes in the steel that is used in a steel frame home. It takes an average of 3 to 4 recycled average sized cars to produce the metal in a steel home. As for the tearing down of a house and removing all the drywall and sheathing to recycle the steel, that is not feasible, even for a wood frame home. What I was stating in my original post was that the leftover metal after framing a metal home would normally fit in a regular size trash can. Go by any wood frame home and look at all the waste/scrap wood in their trash container. I've got an old dumpster that I dump my scrap metal in and when it gets full, I can either call the local scrap yard and they come pick it up or I can take to the scrap yard. This in turn can be melted down and recycled. I have yet to see wood waste/scrapes be recycled. Wood is either burned (pollution) or put in the landfill.Vince
*There have been a number of posts in the past regarding residential steel framing, including a post that I did earlier that included a couple of references on thermal performance.http://www.taunton.com:8090/WebX?230@@.ee821c2In particular, I found a comparison of R values for whole walls using various construction techniques to be discouraging for the use of steel:http://oikos.com/esb/34/wall-R.htmlI have seen several "design ideas" for "C" channel studs that have small raised areas to minimize the contact between the channels and the sheathing and/or wallboard and thus decrease thermal conductivity through the stud. Does anyone know of anyone who is actually manufacturing such a metal stud? Several months ago I posted a request for any information on any place that I could get construction blue prints for a "stick built" 24'x40' (or thereabouts) shop using light gauge steel framing construction, but had no responses. Anyone out there know where I can obtain anything like this?
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I got got finished reading Sather Ekblad's Topic "What's the feeling about Pre Fab Walls?". Since I have recently "converted" over from wood frame construction to steel frame construction, I was just wondering how you "wood" people feel about steel. For me, it has been tough convincing the "old timers" that is doesn't mean that they are no longer a carpenter any more than switching from a hammer & hand saw to a phneumatic hammer & power saw cheapened their skills. The main reason I converted was the quality of wood being offered for construction. Structural material available today would only have qualified as utility grade 10 years ago. I don't have to worry about twisting, warping, cupping, bowing or rotting. It doesn't contribute to a fire and as of right now, termites and carpenter ants don't like it. My walls are straighter, I don't have to worry about putting the bow of a floor joist or ceiling joist up. On the last house we just finish, the total amount of waste structural material fit in a regular size trash can. I don't have to worry about nails working their way loose and one of the best reasons is that the average size home can be made with the steel from 3 to 4 recycled cars.
Looking forward to hearing your comments.
Vince
When I said "old timers", I meant those that feel unless they use a hammer, you are not really a carpenter.