We are designing, furnishing, and installing the kitchens in a multi-unit lakeside condo project. Views of the water are everything here.
The owner has given us pretty much free reign to design what we think is best, but some of them have us stumped. Here is one.
Please tell us what you think as to which of the two versions is better, and of the better one, what would you add or change.
Version #1 has some counter seating at the end where there is a large door, and version #2 has the counter seating central, opposite the in-counter cooktop.
In both versions, the sink is centered under the window, the dishwasher is left of the sink, and the built-in oven and cooktop are in the island/peninsula across from the sink. Both versions have the island-mount hood; I only show it in #2.
Version #1:
Version #2
Edited 7/9/2006 1:58 pm ET by Gene_Davis
Edited 7/9/2006 1:59 pm ET by Gene_Davis
Replies
#1
In #2 the hood blocks the window view from the far end of the room.
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Oh wait, I re-read your post. #2 with the island is better.
Edited 7/9/2006 2:16 pm by Ted W.
IMO #2 with the open end would make a small kitchen look less boxed in.
#1 with the end closed would seem cramped.
As far as the vent hood/ view, would a down draft vent be possible or in the budget.
I don't like #1. It looks like you would be trapped in it and would hard for more than one person at a time in area.
What is off the door to the right. If that is patio/deck (outdoor living area) then #2 would be handly to serve drinks and cold food. But if that is the case then you might want to modify the island and make it wider on that end (square or L shaped) for a serving counter to the outdoor area.
I'll take the island #2 any day
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Where is the stove/hood in #1?
I prefer #2 with the Island in general...but without knowing the over all layout it is more difficult.
From initial thread post: "Both versions have the island-mount hood; I only show it in #2."
Def #2. Women dig the island with seating. Big selling feature around here.
I like elements of both. If I were choosing one, I take #1, but ditch the L shaped penninsula and make it an island. Dead-end kitchens = bad news unless only one person all the time.
I'd also extend the uppers to match the bases to the right of sink. To gain extra cab storage, you could even extend all cabinets toward the doorway on right...perhaps 12" deep bases to keep that kinda open visually. Could even do glass doors on uppers or a big pantry, also 12". That space would also lend itself to a seperate but different hutch or even a baking center.
Depending on where the sittin' and eatin' place is, a counter extension could still be on two sides of island.
The fridge on the sink wall in #2 would be a view blocker from ajacent room, and hey, it just doesn't feel right from here :-)
PJ
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
I like #2. In #1, people gathering at the counter would tend to block the doorway to the right.
I'm assuming that the water view is out the sink window, and the opening to the right doesn't have one. Is this the case?
Like everyone else - definately #2. BUT... if that's where the view is, why waste so much of it with cabinets and a fridge? Is there any way you can stretch the kitchen on the left wall and add another window each side of the one over the sink?
There is a water view out the window, when standing at the sink. But, the 8-foot width glass door has the long view out the bay and down the lake, provided you are looking directly out.
No more openings will be added. We are stuck with the window and the sliding door as-is.
With the pantry storage at the right in #2, you might be able to get rid of the upper cabs on either side of the sink. really opens up the view from that window, and lets in a lot more light. have you considered using a down-draft range top, a la jenn-air?Amateurs talk strategy, Generals talk logistics.
The downdraft is a no-no. We are sitting on a slab-on-grade.
One of the reasons behind design #1 was that we would route electric and maybe LP gas through the toekick space to get it to the cooktop.
With design #1 we lose that capability, thus have to chop a trough in the slab to route electric and gas to the island.
If we went underground with the vent, we would come out at or below grade outside, and we are in deep snow country, so down-low vents cannot be done.
Here's a pic of a vent hood, as I see it from about 8' away (I'm 6' tall). Plenty of view out the windows, and of course when you're sitting no obstructions at all. I was concerned about the obstruction when we installed it but it's a non-issue, and very functional as well - with 4 speeds and 4 halogen lights.
View Image
It would be nice if you could do something to leverage the view out the slider, rather than having people at the island facing at right angles to it, but nothing's coming to mind.
Edited 7/9/2006 5:59 pm by wrudiger
With the right tools, it can be suprising ly easy to get a line under the slab. Too bad nobody thought aar enough ahead on that deal way back when
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You are right about no forethought having gone into anything here, but hey, we are just the kitchen guys, called in after the war is over.
But, the 8-foot width glass door has the long view out the bay and down the lake, provided you are looking directly out.
You just answered your own question........in #1, anyone sitting at the bar will have a great view of........... the refrig.
#2 is much better, since the view can be enjoyed from the "bar".
Also, coming in the door in #1, you walk into a counter with stools.......a traffic jamb at best......not really a good solution.
Gene:
I'd vote #2 with the island that looks similar to what we have. Our island top measures 82" x 42" and features a 13" overhang along the long dimension for 3 stools. I wish we would have extended the right end so a fourth (& maybe 5th) could be located here. (people seem to assemble here).
A 42" space between the island and sink-dishwasher- refrigerator allows doors to open and people to pass. We have Marmoleum flooring over a radiant slab, so HVAC vents aren't a concern. 2nd wish: If you're considering Marmoleum, use tile / stone where stools are to be placed since the stool feet dig-in a bit.
The 36" Wolf gas cooktop in the island has a Rangemaster / Broan down-draft vent - 2 thumbs up for both products.
#2.
Is it just me, or is the island too close to the wall counter though? 42" to 48" is good. And I think I like the full height cupboards over on the left side, leaving more room on either side of the slider.
zak
"so it goes"
If those are my only two choices, I vote for #2.
Ever try to get into the kitchen when the wifes in there? Everybody would feel trapped.
V 2 But, I would do a downdraft at the cooktop / island.
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Gene
Why not use the #2 but put the range & hood along the wall where the Ref. is in #1. By doing that you would have un obstructed view out the window from the island bar, but also an improved view from deeper in the room as well. Also sugest reviewing multiple face & bottom planes for the cabnets to break up the flat face look.
I'm using an island range & hood in an upcoming project; but rotated 90 degrees to minimize the visual impact.
Am I missing something?
How does this look now? The range is to the right, against the wall, as you suggested. The island has nothing on it in this version, other than some nice granite.
View Image
Edited 7/10/2006 6:28 am ET by Gene_Davis
V#3 not bad, except the ref is a little far from the stove.
Is the glass door the main ENTRY point.........if so, easy to load ref w/ groceries,
or just access to a "porch"?
Gene
I like the #3. I do a fair bit of cooking & would find that one convenient to work in.
I would probably move the island further back from the sink if clearance on the other side of the island isn't a problem; I hate kitchen walk congestion.
Is that really a 2 door side by side ref? Those things make it dificult to set stuff out onto the counter around the open left door.
One consideration, is this expected to sell to people who will use the kitchen daily or is it to look at & they eat out most of the time?
The wall araingement for Range, Sink & Ref in this size Kitchen is easy to work in while friends & family sit at the bar & schmooz.
Jim
It is a vacation condo. I plan to move out the island to yield a little more room. The design rule I like to begin with is 42 inches clear between countertop edges.
Even though the owner will outfit it with an expensive gas range, my guess is that it will be a snack-and-breakfast kitchen only.
A couple more inches would make it more comfy, and if we shrink the island width just a couple inches, it will make for more butt room when at the range.
You are right about those side-by-side fridges. I would like to talk the owner into going with the bottom freezer type, door hinges on right.
Gene, I like #3. I like to cook and it's great to have plenty of space between the sink and the stove, as that's where most prep work takes place. Secondary prep space on the island is good too.
Where would the microwave go? That's something too many people don't think about, and if it's a snacking kind of kitchen it's important. I would suggest putting it in the island across from the range.
Mike Maines
Thanks, Woodguy! The microwave! I had forgotten how essential to any kitchen a microwave is, and this kitchen has no provision for one whatsoever.
Can you give me any web page references that show below-counter microwave installations?
Gene, here is a link I found by googling "undercounter microwave installation:"
http://www.insideadvantage.com/products/install_instruc/8205303.pdf
I also included a sketch and a drawing of a similar kitchen I designed recently. I planned for a conventional microwave by including an outlet in the back of the microwave box, but there are built-in versions available similar to wall ovens.
Gene
I like the #3 even better then the #2, and I'd avoid the down draft at all costs. I have had several people tell me that they should have just saved the money and went without a vent! For serious cooks they dont seam to do the job.
Doug
I've been around some installed that do work ... even for the serious cooks ...
but U have to give lotsa thot ahead of time to the routing of the vent pipe.
I forget what the exact numbers are ... but I think it's something like each 90 reduces that run to 30% of capacity. If U can go down ... and then straight out ... just one 90 ... you're better off than most down/up/over/sideways routing done.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Thanks to all that have participated in this discussion. There has been some great input.
Here are two views of the almost-final design. That island countertop will be a big slab of gray-green granite, 93-1/2" long by 44" at its widest, and it clears the adjacent countertops by a comfortable 44 inches. To give you some idea of scale, the window is 5 feet wide, and the patio door is 8 feet.
I added a soffit for the purpose of getting some 3-inch can lights down closer to the countertops, and to serve as a raceway for the range vent pipe.
Backsplash will be all tumbled stone tile. Undercab lighting will be Kichler xenon. Counter receptacles will all be black plugmold strip mounted up under cabs. Lighting will all be dimmable, of course.
The view from a mouse's perspective shows where the lighting cans will be placed. The cans over the island look like hockey pucks in mid air in the birdseye view.
A word about the microwave. The owner wants to dazzle the potential buyers with a.) the two way lakeside view, b.) the glitzy woodwork, including its fit and finish, c.) the high end SS appliances, d.) the lighting and controls, and e.) the knockout stonework of the counters. He has decided to forego a microwave, and will let the new owners buy one and put it in the far left corner of the countertop area.
These renderings don't show any detail for toekick, doors and drawerfronts, island apron finish, end fillers, crown trim, or light rail.
View ImageView Image
Edited 7/10/2006 10:37 pm ET by Gene_Davis
Edited 7/10/2006 10:37 pm ET by Gene_Davis
I like this one a bit more than #2. If the island could come out more towards the viewer of the picture, it would get it out of the path of the range/sink/refridge triangle.
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Gene
I'd opt for #2 because I like the idea of being able to go around the island. Better flow in my oppinion.
Doug
every time I demo a penninsula everyone is thrilled to see it go.
seems like 99 outta 99 times ... people just hate the old penninsula.
so ... number 2.
people do love their islands.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I would go with #2
But...
My concern is the space between the sink and cooktop cabinets . Also, is the Island deep enough so the you have ample room to use the back side as a breakfast bar and still be able to cook?
This whole Island looks like it will encroach into the other room more than in #1 . Do you have enough room?
#1 has the insurmountable problem of the bottleneck at the entrance, and that's made even worse by the location of the frig. When the frig door is open, no one's moving in or out. This makes it what one client calls a "one butt kitchen"--only one butt can fit in there at a time.
#2 avoids this. I'm not concerned about the range hood. If you use a really nice one--ideally with a glass hood--it can frame the view nicely. And if it's set at the right height it won't bother 99% of the people 99% of the time. The drawings are angled from above, but if they were angled from the height of the average person, you wouldn't notice it except as a frame for the top of the window.
In version #1, you have no pantry and what I like about this one is that the tall cabinets are on the side awall away from the door opening. Is a pantry cabinet needed?
In version two, the refer/pantry seems to obstruct the opening/ flow of light, but I like the island setting better than the pennisula.
In version three, I like how the range is off the island and opens up for more of a breakfast bar/seating, but for me, the refer/pantry location is still an issue. Because of the this, I still like version #2
How big is the remainder of the other room and what is it being used for?? can you continue some of the cabinets down the left side wall?, say like a desk area/serving counter?
#2 in a heartbeat. Better flow.
"Sometimes when I consider what tremendous consequences come from little things, I am tempted to think -- there are no little things" - Bruce Barton
Version 2, without the blocked off work area, seems like a no brainer to me.
2 nuff said ;)
#2 and the #3 is even better. #1 will drive you nuts because every time you want to do something in the galley of the kitchen, you have to walk around. #1 has the flow
It seems important to remember that these are vacation condos.
What's the first thing that happens when you show up at a vacation condo kitchen? The island gets stacked high with bags of groceries and misc. stuff. The groceries go in the fridge or cabinets, but a big island is key realestate for making drinks, setting out the snacks, and storing things that don't seem to go anywhere else.
When a group is ready to eat the island is a key place to set out the food if it's informal dining or grab and eat. Social gatherings are also a prime reason to have an extra large island.
On vacation getaways people are quite likely to hang around the kitchen to visit, since that's what many vacations are all about. Where do you hang, but around the island.
While working for a kitchen designer who remodeled, or a remodeler who was a good kitchen designer, he showed me the value of large islands of more than one level. It breaks up the space, hides what's sitting out on the kitchen side, and is just more visually interesting.
A third, higher tier on one end of the island is a great place to hide a microwave under.
Also making room for a small wine rack is functional and looks good. I'd also go for a small fridge in the island since there is rarely too much fridge space when a bunch of goodies are simply thrown in.
Cheers