Architects or contractors?
Initial stages of rebuilding a cottage and trying to get most bang for buck, and love this magazine.
However, when I talk to architects they seem familiar with stuff but don’t know costs. Contractors seem to know cost of only stuff they work with and are unfamiliar with alternatives.
When I try and research I find most stuff: ICFs, SIPs, engineered lumber tends to be more expensive. Hard to find someone walking both sides of the equation: cost, quality, ‘worthwhileness’.
Thoughts?
Replies
Lumber yard sales staff, preferably a person who's been in the business for many years. Start by introducing yourself as someone who's planning to build a new home in the area. That should be all it takes to have a nice sit down exchange in a comfortable semi-private environment.
Have a prepared list of questions. Make notes of product names and recommendations. Later you can search the net for manufacturer's web sites.
Then come back here and use the "Advanced Search" feature in the upper left corner, above the topic's column, to find discussions about each product.
Finally, if you still have questions, start a new thread here. Be specific about your level of knowledge and give information regarding location and site conditions.
Those items tend to be more expensive because THEY ARE MORE EXPENSIVE!
And...don't let the manufacturer's sales pitch fool you. The labor for most of those items is MORE, not less!
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
You forgot to warn him about Frenchy!<G>
Just remember ... there ain't no free lunch! If you found the neatest thing since sliced bread ... there will always be a downside. Informed decisions is always knowing about ALL aspects of products.
Unless the architect is also a builder, he/she will not be able to advise you on saving money. They may be great with ideas and they may be able to save you money through design efficiencies but they are not the person to talk to about using specific products to save money.
The main reason for this is that every builder has their own strengths and weaknesses. They are good with the materials and techniques that they work with all the time. Their knowledge and experience allow them to use materials efficiently and at a lower labor cost. If you give them a new material or technique, they will be more expensive, not because of the products but because they have to learn how to use them.
There are builders with a wide range of experience but though they can work with almost anything, they may not be particularly efficient. Our own company falls into this category. We are often doing things that are a learning process for us. This is a lot of fun but it is hardly cheap.
If you are considering a particular project, my advice would be to find a good person in your area with experience in similar work. Hire them to give you advice on appropriate methods for your project. I am sure that this person exists and after meeting with them you may simply hire them to build the projcet. Possibly you will be advised to hire an architect. Maybe you will be advised to build the job yourself. There is a wide range of options for a wide range of budgets.
See this is your first post j88, WELCOME to BT.
You will find every flavor here, so I'll add mine.
Since you are concerned about cost, you apparently are not wealthy enough to afford an archy <G>
I'll propose the DIY avenue for you, which, if you make less than $100/hr at your day job and are not over 55 YO, disabled, or lazy, will save you money.
The ONLY persons able to get 'bang for the buck' are you and your family.
1st, educate yourself in building techology.
Then, start by early planning and amassing a range of materials at closeouts, sales, etc.
Then design your cottage rebuild (or mansion) around the materials you have been able to source or stockpile.
After that, do ALL the labor yourself, educate yourself as needed. If your day job is $100 per hr or more, you are at or past the break even point for DIY savings.
Here is one case history from 1978 - church trustee po'd the archy the council had hired for an addition, and the trustee needed to do the job. Archy had estimated $100K for the entire project, planning to occupancy.
By judicious planning, DIY design, plan drafting, permitting, and all DIY labor, the job was completed for less than $4000!!!!! This does not count donated machinery time, etc.
Note: the previous reference (warning?) regarding Frenchy is because he likely will chime in with similar comparisons, and give examples of being sure to make use of local resources, e.g. black walnut timber framing for 30 cents a BF, etc. <G>
Edit PS: If ya wanna build a shed out back of that cottage, can give you some case histories of 1 cent per square foot techniques. No joke on the cost.
Edited 5/29/2008 10:26 pm ET by junkhound
Thanks for the advice/warnings. I'll keep an eye out for this Frenchy character. Definitely want to go DIY route but not where it makes more sense to hire someone.With my relative inexperience am also contemplating 'shell package' kits but am having a hard time understanding what value they add other than saving time on finding suppliers. I'm sure they're knowledge/experience does have value, but part of this, for me, is 'the journey'. Just wish the journey was getting me to watching the sunset on my porch a little faster. :)
Shell? Where are you located?
http://www.shelladditions.com
j88
The real truth is it depends.. Are you going to write a check to have someone else do it for you and if so how long do you intend to live there.
Contractors have gotten real good at building stuff they are familiar with very quickly.. New technology they are slow to embrace because it means starting out learning everything all over again.
Some have a life time of doing the same thing.. they are adamant about not changing.
I would say the advice to ask a lumberyard about things they don't sell such as SIP's and ICF's is foolish! They want to sell lumber not forms or panels..
Architects too aren't a good source of information. If you ask Benson you will hear all about timberframes. If you ask a stick building architect since his experiance is stick building he won't know either.
I'm prejudiced as well, I made up my mind after reading all about everymethod of building and came to my conclusion. Since I started my home I changed my mind.
I'm doing the finishing details on my home and if I had a clean sheet to do it all over again I would have built with ICF's right up to the roof line..
Don't ask here because most of the pro contractors are old hands at stick building (and could you ever admit that something you've spent your life doing is inferior?)
Another Frenchy sighting!
j88
By the way there are some pictures of my home during construction if you go to 85891.1 & 94041.1
j88.... well...opinions all over the map...
take a look at some of the threads in the photo section.... there are some very good photo essays on lots of different techniques
"Initial stages of rebuilding a cottage "
Rebuilding or replacing?
If you are rebuilding then what would reasonable work depends on what is currently there and how much is being replaced.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
You want it built cheap, find a good slumlord.
I've been asked to bid projects for a few landlords and they completely balk at not only the price but the thought of actually doing something right.
I have 5 houses and I use my rentals as examples of my work. These other guys think i'm nuts actually providing a place (for tenants) I would live in.
cheap
quality
on time pick two
Ha!
Brownbagg's got it!
If you want to save money do it yourself. Do it this way and you lose lots of time.
If you want it done in a reasonable amount of time hire someone to build it for you. This way costs more.
With not much experience I would lean toward hiring a contractor. Do thorough research on each one. Talk to past clients, go see current projects ask many questions.
I like the idea of going to the local lumberyard. Ask more questions.
Don't be bashful or think you might ask a stupid question, you only need to ask once then you've learned it forever.
I can only tell you what I do for myself and my customers when considering products we're not familiar with. I only rely on info from others to a certain point. Mostly I want to know I did a good check on my own. I got a good background to start with when I wrote specs for an architect a few years back, but anyone can do it.
First, go online and do the best research I can on the mfr's websites. Download specs so I have some data for comparisons. This may mean you learn some new terms like "tensile strength" and "porosity", etc, but you'll catch on.
Second, check out association websites for the products I'm trying to evaluate further or don't fully understand. Let's say I'm trying to compare 2 different types of laminate substrate - there's actually a particle board manufacturing association (forget the exact name, now). To check out wood products you can use the AWI, American Woodworking Institute, and so on. If you search online for the generic (fiber cement siding instead of "Hardi board") you should find resources for technical data and websites devoted to the industry. I've found most had understandable info, even for the average person.
Third, talk to suppliers or fabricators in the area. My building supply has been helpful in pricing different materials for me. I may not know how much a project will cost with one material or another, but I will know which products are going to cost more. Then I can go back to the specs and other info to determine if that extra cost is worth it to me or my customer.
I also like to check out magazines like FHB and others that periodically run evaluations of different materials for homeowners, like decking, roofing, siding, etc. Better Homes & Gardens usually has some specialty publications with lots of info. Also check out Consumer Reports and possibly Epinions to see what the general consensus is on a product.
Other posters have said that no one builder or contractor is familiar with every product out there, which is very true. You have to do some of your own research before you get to the contractor.
You're the one who makes the decision as to what products are or are not worth the extra cost to you, so you want to make those decisions from the best info.
If you get to cabinetry and get stuck, let me know! Good luck!
Im gettng the feeling your buck is fixing to get banged.
Tim
Hey J88
Fill out your profile so people know where you are.
There are local people here from one end of the continent to the other, and some even in remote islands in the middle of the ocean.
You might be able to get some leads in your local area for experts who could refer/help/etc.
Most markets are not real busy so people are more apt to help a little in an opportunity to get some work out of it.
Some of the newer products are nifty, but I stick with more traditional stuff to build with. I am not comfortable with the idea that the nifty new product I chose has a fatal flaw and falling apart 5 years later.
JeffinPA
The trouble with building things the traditonal way is that we wind up driving Model T Fords in the year 2008.
Stick building was fine when we had endless forests of old growth trees. Today we are harvesting third and forth generation trees grown in a manner to assure fastest possible growth..
That results in wood vastly inferior to what was originally used..
Not only that but the cost of energy is going so high that the old methods are being patch worked in a vain attempt to extend their life.. Maybe it's time to look at something more affordable more sustainable and better able to use energy.
I've long been a fan of SIP's and ICF's SIP's have been around since WW2 and are well proven.. ICF's are somewhat newer but have been around since the 1960's That's plenty of time for weakness and strengths to become known..
The problem is that some people have spent their whole lives building those Model T Fords. They have little interest or desire to learn new techniques or buy new equipment to master something newer..
Less than 2% of all new homes are currantly being built with aternative methods including timberframed and even straw bailed. With that little exposure there are plenty who will be neigh sayers..
Keep accepting their word, (and driving that Ford Model T )
I hear what you are saying.
I am lumber concious. I use I joists, trusses, and dont over spec.
Some of the other methods are not widely received in my parts and I am not currently looking to find the niche market who wants to use other stuff.
Maybe I am narrow minded, but re-training a team who does things well the way we do them is a lot of effort.
I am all for proper sealing, insulating, higher effeciency HVAC systems, etc. but not looking at using the new roof sheathing where you only tape the joints and no felt paper is required.
BTW I have read up and understand SIPS and some of the other products, but have not had any motivation to give some of them a try.
JeffinPA
Your attitude is reflected in countless other examples. It's completely understandable and you'll find endless contractors in agreement with you.
That's why alternative construction methods are where they are.. about 2% of the market..
Not because of a poor cost benefit ratio or more difficult method of construction but because few see the benefits of learning a whole new construction method.
Here in Minnesota we had similar issues.. Towards the end the massive overbuilding and crowded contractor field forced some to seek a niche market. They switched from stick building to ICF & SIP's and as a result they were busy for a year and a half more than most tradional stick builders.
High end customers sought improvements in energy efficency and were willing to pay a premium for it. At first the premium was 10% but as competition forced tighter and tighter pricing, it dropped to a 2% premium and eventually they were willing to build ICF homes for the price of Stick built..
I've spoken to some contractors who did so and the learning curve was steep.. The first home they built needed every penny of that 10% premium. By the third home 2% was more than sufficent and by the 5th home they made extra profit over stick building. The profit comes from the same area that it comes in stick building.. being efficent, knowing what to do next and anticipating minor troubles before they become major..
That plus knowing which venders to use and how to get good pricing.. Surprise, no one vender is the most price competitive.. The Form dealer is willing to give a better price to those who do their own take offs, I need so many 15" straight forms, so many corners, so many 9" forms and so many corners etc..
Rebar is cheaper if not purchased thru middlemen, compare cement companies and even who you have do the pumping..
Prebuild window/door rough openings, and find electricians/plumbers equally willing to work in new media. They will be amased at how easy it is to wire/plumb in foam over wood..
Everytime I see homes destroyed in tornados or earthquakes I grieve for stick building, while it's a step up from moble homes, it's not much of a step. The 200 MPH wind resitance and up to 4 hour fire rating is motivation for high end customers to pay the premium not to mention the superior thermal efficency and quietness.
Yep. I know there are superior products and techniques out there.
I am willing to use those items so long as the cost/value benefit is a win for all. But here in the Philadelphia suburbs, there is very little alternate methodology. People joke that we are the last in the country to make the changes. The problem is that I had to go to the Minnesota code and other resources to attempt to understand why our stucco leaked. (still a moderate secret around here and I still see people putting 1 layer of barrier on and no weep screed)
I attempt to be enlightened to the extent that I have the time and opportunity to do so. I am probably less than average at it though.
First don't use the word CHEAP..... Say INEXPENSIVE!
Neither !!!
cheap is cheap (as sung by the Kinks)
does cheap to you mean money wise or time wise...
Bill Gates can walk into an archy's office and right a blank check and say build me a house.
~zero time / mucho $$$
frenchy can walk thru the woods collecting walnuts and plant them and get 10s of thousands of board ft. of walnut...
~zero $$ / hundreds of YEARS of "free time"
you have to determine where you are on this spectrum.
you can stick build a roof with cheap lumber or pay some $$ and have trusses up ans sheathed and shingled in a couple of days.
less range of cheap vs fast there but still quite a range.
then there is Quality (not spelled with a K)
Quality ALWAYS costS more!!!
and also it Takes more MONEY!!!
and it is VERY EXSPENSIVE!!!
now some here will argue that but mostly they do not make a living providing Quality workmanship, so they are way under valuing their time...
If you go to almost any qualified remodeler/builder and mention quality and cheap in the same sentence, be prepared to keep looking.
especially if you put cheap in FRONT of quality....
The "Fast, Cheap, or Right, pick 2" is on the mark
but cheap + quality will only happen with ~free labor because quality materials are expensive.
You can't rely on home despot or blowes to supply quality stuff unless you do a lot of leg work. and driving back and forth to return shid that doesn't cut it...
I can ramble on here for a while but chances are you don't want to hear it...
Good luck!!
if you figure out how to do it then you will be the first...
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion"
-Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
T
Somewhere in that post is the absolute truth to this whole question.
I know a guy(diy'er) that was going to remodel his house and do it cheap but he still wanted to get some quality in it.
He did all the metal work(air ducts), bent his own stuff, made it all up and ran it all himself. This guy could write a book on "cheap ####" but even he will admit now that he would have been better off taking a job at McDonalds in the evening and paying to have it done right. You have to substitute a lot of time to save on the labor.
You hit it when you said that these guys are undervaluing there labor.
Doug
Edited 6/1/2008 10:07 am ET by DougU
DougU
If you consider it labor and detest it then you are correct Doug.. However some of us consider it a break from our normal jobs and are willing to do all that we can in order to achieve something we want..
What's your hobby? Golfing, hunting, collecting stamps? Whatever, you don't consider doing that "labor" do you?
The other advantage is that we are at home so we are involved when our children need us.. rather than being off someplace spending money entertaining ourselves. That's an additional savings there..
Plus we don't have to pay taxes on the money we saved..
Finally there is a certain pride and feeling of accomplishment knowing we did it ourselves. The same pride you get in doing a job well is maganfied many times because we stepped outside of our normal area of expertese and achieved something that not than many people can do.
Please do not minimise sweat equity. Intial estimates to do my home the way I wanted it done was well in excess of 2 million dollars.. by doing things my way I have 16 inch thick walls made of quaility materials and I don't have 1/6th of that cost. Others can profit from my experiance if theytoo are willing to trade time for savings.
Edited 6/1/2008 11:45 am ET by frenchy
Frenchy
For Gods sakes man, I didn't say that it was etched in stone did I?
If you consider it labor and detest it then you are correct Doug and you must have pulled this comment right out of your #### cause I never said anything like that either. I said that for this one particular guy, his comment was that he should have taken a part time job at McD's because it would have worked out better for him, quit trying to read something that isn't there. He doesn't like to do sheet metal work but thought that he'd save a lot of money by diy, after all the tedious labor, inadequate tools, doing it part time.............it wasn't the time/money saver that he thought it would be, hence the working at McD's!
I understand the concept of doing it yourself, hell that's probably how most of us got started in this business. I also understand the idea of accomplishment, but often times people diy because they are trying to save money when in fact they are not saving a dime. Regardless of what you want to say about diy your time is still worth something, whether it be building your own place or staying at work and making the money to have it done. Your time to work on your house was traded for time spent doing something else. Time does not have to have a monitory value placed on it.
I hate mechanic work, can do it if need be but really don't like it. I can work overtime on Fridays and do something that I like and pay a mechanic to do something that he enjoys. Same amount of time but no hassles for me.
Please do not minimise sweat equity.
I didn't, again, quit trying to read something that wasn't there!
Doug
DougU
The problem I have is that many on this post tend to assume that DIY is somehow inferior or not worth your time..
There are plenty anxious to discourage people from attempting things themselves.
I don't see it that way clearly. I've repeatedly given my reasons why and hopefully you can appreciate them..
I get a lot of heat for my can-do attitude and countless people here have claimed I can't have saved the money I say I have.. yet all my recepts are here for anyone's examination.
I do agree that a professional who is trained and experianced can build faster than a DIY but that's to his advantage as well.
Since he will be slow, it doesn't make any differance if you build with 2x4s or ICF forms. Actually it does.. a ICF form is faster easier and lighter to assemble by unskilled workers than a properly built wall made from studs will be..
Frenchy
The problem I have is that many on this post tend to assume that DIY is somehow inferior or not worth your time..
I know way to many diy'ers that can produce some pretty good work, I wouldn't ever say that they cant and don't produce some high quality work. They do.
There are plenty anxious to discourage people from attempting things themselves
I agree with this statement as well. I encourage anybody that wants to try something(within reason) to give it a shot. I installed a walkin shower using the Kerdi system last month, never did it before but I'm sure that it's damn near as good as if I hired it. Took a hell of a lot longer and I struggled with parts of it but I got through it and will probably do the three that will go in my own house. I had the time, saved some money, learned to do it and sorta enjoyed it, don't think that I'd want to do it for a living but it was fun.
I could not say the same thing though if I had to change the heads on my truck, there is no reward to me personally for doing that job, well that is if you don't count the idea that I'd be giddy as hell if the damn thing even ran afterwards but that's one thing that I'm better off if I hire it out.
My point was/is that all diy jobs are not done because one likes the reward/satisfaction/saves money............ There are times that hiring something out does make more sense!
Doug
even he will admit now that he would have been better off taking a job at McDonalds in the evening and paying to have it done right
Never would get me to say that,
I'll second what Frenchy said, plus labor of building beats the heck out of jogging for staying somewhat fit <G>, and think of the knowledge gained the first time you do something.
After 6 decades of building experience, it may be hubris but there are only a very few (like Stan Foster, etc) I could hire that could do any job 'more better' than me, even at my day pay rate.
Granted, most are probably faster these days <G>.... but, gives an excuse to buy even more tools to help every job along......
Think of all the tools you can buy with the money you save DIY.
Read my comments to Frenchy, didnt say that all diy work should be forgone for something else! Or that it should all be hired out, just that some of it for some people is not the time/money saver that they think it is!
Doug
i swear we must be twins....
it's not brag'n when it's so.... when u claim few can do the quality of work you do...
"why don't you just hire someone" I know i've heard that 100,000 times...
I have a guy working with me now who is clean'n up one of my warehouses and selling alot of my "stuff" it's hard but hey... i sold a shopping center where i had a 6000sf space that i used for "storage" now i have to empty it... anyway had a guy come look at some equipment and i was fixing the brakes on a forklift... my new guy was show'n him some ice makers and they started asking me some questions... the guy looking started putting 2 & 2 together... that it was my warehouses and my equipment... and was amazed i'd be working on my own forklift...
I know no other way....
at the end of each day i have a pretty good idea of what i've done... usually in things that i can see... a wall built, a ditch dug, something fabricated from steel that was just steel stock hours before... that has ...but even more value when it was done for 1 to 10% of what it would have cost if "i'd just called someone".... thats not just money i saved.... that is money i didn't have to make... the difference is huge...
just the idea of rushing through my day so that i could head to the gym to "work out" just doesn't register... when i can work hard all day vs working out...
p
[replying to post 1]
contractors. duh. a contractor who doesn't know how to build cost-efficiently goes out of business. but you need a good archy to make sure the design satisfies you and your needs.
if you have all the time in the world, DIY is a fun way to save some money and also learn something. same for salvaging doors and windows, but beware the extra labor costs that will come from using random materials.
for hiring a contractor, look for the jobs in your neighborhood that were done quickly and professionally. find out who they hired, and interview them.