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We put three one-piece Kohler toilets in our house. They ain’t cheap. Plus we put in $$$ of other Kohler products. The day after moving in we saw water dripping into library. Traced it to one of the toilets, but couldn’t find cause (nothing as simple as a loose supply line). Called plumber. Changed wax rings even though no obvious leak there (clean water was leaking). Still leaked. Finally found it–a crack in the bowl right on the S-shaped part of the toilet where the clean water moves from the integral tank to the bowl. Gotta get upside-down to see it. Obviously a manufacturing defect be/c the glazing on the ceramic conforms to the crack. Plumber says it’s a 1 in 2000 piece of bad luck. I say lousy QA at the plant.
Call supplier. They call Kohler who says they’ll replace the toilet (still waiting 3 weeks later), but if I want the plumber’s bill paid, I gotta file homeowner’s insurance claim and let the ins co go after them. Supplier said they’d probably pick up the tab be/c of the hassle.
For a week my wife has complained of a bad smell in a different powder room. (Hey, I use the fan!). Can’t pinpoint smell or cause. She says maybe mold, but I can’t find evidence. Today I find water around base of toilet (black granite tile over 8″ slab makes wet spots difficult to see). Guess where I look first, and guess what is also cracked. Same damn place. I’ll call my supplier in the morning, but my question is: who should pay what? It’s Kohler’s crappy manufacturing or crappy QA that caused problem. Would you file insurance claim to make them cover associated costs, or would you let supply co pay for it figuring money’s money and the source doesn’t matter? Thanks.
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Jim,
Does it really matter? You want the problems repaired. If you file a claim under your homeowners policy the insurance company will subrogate the expense to the others anyway.
*Hi Jim,This is what I would do. Send registered letter to Kohler, describe the situation, give them 7 days to respond with an acceptable solution, wait 7 days, no answer, replace and repair, then file a small claim against Kohler for the entire amount. You have to be reasonable in mitigating damages. Document everything. Get three estimates of repair before awarding and proceding. Don't forget, you have to give kohler the opportunity to remedy first. That's where the 7 days to respond comes in. Check with your local requirements with your lawyer.If you pay the bucks, you should get the best.Gabe
*No Michael,You file under your home insurance, they pay and write off the claim because suing the supplier is not worth the effort. Meanwhile, your insurance as well as mine goes up to ensure the bottom line remains in the black for the insurance company.I say go after the one responsible not everyone else.Gabe
*I'd say contact your insurance agent first, but ask if you can proceed with a certified letter to Kohler before you file an official "claim" with the insurance adjuster. We had had some damaged carpet replaced recently and the agent told me, once you get three claims, it is harder to get a new policy - should you ever want to change ins. companies. No doubt - Kohler is responsible and they should take care of the entire repair for you and restore those rooms to their original condition and do something wonderful to smoothe ruffled feathers and re-establish good will. Rose
*My experience in a similar situation with Kohler turned out to be pretty positive. They shipped us a tub that was marked as being one color, but was really another, so it didn't match the other fixtures and tile. Problem was we didn't realize it until after it had been installed. (the two colors are very similar). We met with the local Kohler rep who reimbursed us for the cost of ripping out the surround. I would pursue this with your supplier and ask to talk with the local rep. Good luck.
*Read the warranty that applies to your toilets. Amazing how many people struggle around when spending a couple minutes reading helps answer the question.If the warranty allows consequential damages(which are what you are talking about) file with Kohler. If it doesn't still talk to them. They may still cover the damage as a PR thing.If the warranty doesn't allow consequential damages then get the new toilets from them and discuss the matter with your insurance company. Depending on the company and their settlement policies they may or may not go after Kohler and your plumber.But, why are you letting your plumber off so easily? Doesn't he have a responsibility to install undamaged equipment? Shouldn't he have taken a look at the toilets before installing them to see that they were, in fact, in good condition? In most States I'm aware of the answer to both questions is "yes".So, I would definitely include him in the deal and would be sure he is included in your damage payment negotiations.
*It's not the supplier's fault. It's not the plumber's fault. Leave them alone.It's Kohler's fault. They will honor their warranty. Take the replacement toilets and consider yourself lucky that the leak wasn't catastrophic. If you make enough noise, like a spoiled suburbanite-baby-boomer-asshole, maybe they'll even pay for the plumber. Maybe not. Or put in for it with your homeowner's policy and help contribute to all of us having to pay more and more for less and less. Yes, do that. Do it several times for minor crap, and I hope they drop you like a rock.Life is full of things that don't go right. Get on with it.In a bad mood,Steve
*Did the plumber supply the toilet, or was he hired only to install ? If the fault was something that could have been spotted with a quick inspection before installation, then he's probably partly on the hook, particularly if he supplied the unit. If he was only only heired to install, then maybe he's off the hook if the fault was hard to spot.
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>If you make enough noise, like a spoiled suburbanite-baby-boomer-asshole, maybe they'll even pay for the plumber.
>Or put in for it with your homeowner's policy and help contribute to all of us having to pay more and more for less and less. Yes, do that. Do it several times for minor crap, and I hope they drop you like a rock.
Hey, easy, slapper. I tell you what the manufacturer said and you give _me_ this crap? Did I say I was filing claims? I've had homeowners' for more years than you have digits and haven't filed a claim yet, so take your bad mood out on someone else.
And I didn't say anything bad either to or about the plumbers. There was no reasonable way they could have seen this unless they were benchpressing the damn thing or waited out a day's worth of flushing.
All I had the gall to ask was what others thought the right thing to do was. Sorry that's verboten on this site.
Thanks to all of you who answered politely. It was interesting to see the wide range of answers. Hardly unanimous. I have thus far eaten the plumber's bill for the first one, but finding a second identical manufacturing flaw on brand new fixtures gets a little irritating.
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When getting insurance quotes for a new house, I was amazed to learn that I could lower my bill from $800/year to $400 just by going to a $2000 deductible. The payback is only 5 years, and since I've never had a claim in 15 years, it makes sense to me to go the higher deductible and "eat" the little things. I was even more amazed when my agent said, "That's what I have -- saves me lots of money." How come they never tell you that? (Because we don't ask, right?)
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Crusty, my dad was an insurance agent and taught us things like that. That's why I wouldn't make a claim for something like this. And that makes it extra aggravating for Kohler to tell me this is my only recourse.
Their warranty doesn't directly address this. It mentions "defects occurring in normal usage within one year after installation." But ours were defects that undoubtedly, w/o question happened during manufacturing and would have been obvious even before installation if we had had any reason to crawl down and look there. (Of course, if we had seen them then, we wouldn't have installed them and would have not passed the final plumbing inspection be/c of missing fixtures.)
Mostly I'm just surprised by the following: On this board a lot of discussions evolve into "you get what you pay for." Well, we didn't try to get by w/ schlock products and we still were delivered so much stuff of poor quality and then received such disappointing customer service. It's just an unnecessary aggravation that I know many of the people here go through time and again.
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Minor Crap??????
Man I hope you're not a pro, Stevieboy. Thats the kind of attitude the rest of us have to fight against everyday we try to earn a living.
Get a better Mood or go pound sand.
*Hey there Jimbo,Don't get your undies in bunch there kiddo. I wasn't calling you a spoiled suburbanite baby boomer asshole, I was just noting that that's what the tendency of that particular subgroup might be in such an instance. Let's just call it a pet peeve of mine that so many people these days don't think life entails any risk that someone else won't pay for somehow.I'll try to phrase my answer a little less provacatively this time.I would eat the plumber's bill if I were you, or maybe I would grumble to Kohler a little bit about getting two bad ones in a row. The plumber did nothing wrong. The supplier did nothing wrong, and putting in frivolous insurance claims is bad for everyone, including you IMHO.Have a nice day :-)Slapper.
*Mikey,I don't know if I'm a pro or not, but I do make a living doing this stuff.No apologies for classifying it as minor crap. I've been around the block with insurance companies a few time in my life. In the greater scheme of things, that all it is. Now if a tornado takes out your new addition, that's not minor crap.Stevieboy
*If those toilets were supplied by a contractor - building, plumbing, whatever, you can bet that contractor made a profit on them. The reason it's fair for him/her to make a profit on the sale is because THEY have to stand behind what they sell you. THEY should replace the toilets and take it up with their supplier. If you bought these yourself, whoever you bought them from should stand behind them. That's simple, and it's fair. Sorry if I missed who you said you got them from.
*Steve,If you're able to sign your post 'stevieboy' your mood must be improving!My thoughts on insurance claims are this; Where did the idea of not making claims against insurance that you've paid for is a good idea? Sure sounds like an idea that the insurance companies would like to push. I believe that the insurance companies are going to win no matter what. They have the money, lawyers and politicians to get their way. The premiums are going to rise whether any claims, large or small, are made. The banks seem to have latched onto this philosophy with all those grrrrrrrrrrreat fees they charge to give me the same old service I use to get for free.Mikey
*So Steve, I suppose when you buy your next new car and a week after you get it the $600 computer chip "brain" fails, you're just gonna say, "Oh that's minor crap, I'll just eat it. Wouldn't want to bother the dealer with a warranty claim." Yea, right.The reasonable thing here, is for the suppplier to simply replace your toilets from his stock, and then he deals with Kohler directly since he already has a procedure in place to do this. The assumption would be that they received damaged goods from Kohler and that the defect was not apparent. YOU should pay the plumber directly; if he's a nice guy, he'll give you a break in appreciation for your business, and to assure your future business and a good recommendation. I'd suggest your deductible as payment. I can almost assure you that around here (small, southern town) it'd be handled this way and everyone would be happy. Things like this happen, but if everyone is reasonable and keeps an eye to the future, then no one is going to let one unfortunate incident like this cost them more money down the road.
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To maybe close this out (now that Steve and I have kissed and made up) I'll answer the last few questions I see from Crazy Legs, et al. As the GC I bought the toilets through a large plumbing supply company used by all the contractors in this area. These weren't stock items and they're taking awhile to receive from Kohler, but the supply house has been generally responsive and will probably offer to pick up the plumber's fees when I call in the morning.
Why did I buy them instead of the plumber? Well, my original plumber, a reference from a GC, went bankrupt somewhere be/t my rough-in and final. So I took care of fixtures. New plumber is time & materials and has been very cooperative in fitting in a stranded customer (me). Their bill for these two removals/installs will probably be around $200--which of course I'll pay--but what irks is that I'd rather this go for books or toys for my daughter than for Kohler QA screwups.
The real shame here is that Kohler is sticking the customer for the cost of their manufacturing flaws. I expected a company like that to do a more complete job of standing behind their products.
Thanks for helping me talk this through.
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Let's not miss one rather counterintuitive aspect of all of this that seems to run in some products and industries (and possibly a topic for another thread):
The higher end the product within a particular product line (one-piece toilet vs. typical toilet in this case) the lower the production quantity and the less the manufacturer has to lose from defects. I've seen it in professional ranges, in high-end refrigerators and in the products of manufacturers recently mentioned in related posts.
If you sell a million plain widgets a year you can't afford to have half of them come back. If you also sell 50 fancy widgets, guess which product line will get more QC attention.
Jeff
*JK, It seems I must be lucky. Cracked Kohler sink, special order. Called supplier, new sink arrives in 3 days. Plumber installs, I didn't argue payment. Customer happy, I am satisfied, job done. Part of the job description, that general contracting. You can't always save it or make it all. Better luck next time.
*Jim, I wonder if it is worth it to persue Kohler for damages, but they will pay. There is no question they are at fault but it will take a little more than 7 days and a letter to resolve this.I had a situation where their tub units were misformed and they sent out a rep to confirm and asked for an estimate for replacement. They whined a little bit but sent a check, something like 3 months later.I guess it is up to you if you want to go thru the hassle, I think having them tell me to make a claim against my home insurance, when they are clearly at fault, would tick me off enough to chase them. Get an estimate for complete replacement and repair of any damage (use their retail prices for the toilets) and go for it.
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Epilogue: I am once again a satisfied customer. The Kohler rep just called me. Turns out his earlier comment to my supply house rep on filing an insurance claim came be/c of his concern that I might be hitting them up for ancillary damages for ceiling repairs, etc. I had never even contemplated that. Told him it was just the plumber's visits that bugged me, that I could take care of the rest myself. He said it was w/in his authority to pay for the removal/install costs, and he'd happily do so. Said typically the plumber wouldn't charge for those, but understood when I explained why this plumber was time & materials and not contract.
He went on further to explain how they manufacture and test each fixture (both a water and air pressure test). He's interested in tracing them back to which of the 3 manuf plants and which shift so they can see how inspections missed this. Very satisfying call, especially when he understood that I wasn't trying to be a "a spoiled suburbanite-baby-boomer-asshole." (couldn't resist, Steve!)
Again, thanks for talking this through. The variety of approaches and perspectives was really interesting to see.
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Glad it worked out for you JimK. Glad you were able to include everyone in the dispute negotiations and resolution; and that everyone ultimately was able to see the light.
Isn't it amazing the differing attitudes from people when something goes wrong? Frankly, I still have a hard time understanding why anyone would just eat the cost of someone else's defective product or work. How else to get them to do it right unless you require them to bear the financial consequences of their errors?
*jimk.. sounds like your basic policy is the one we use too.... our plumber always supplie the fixtures.... i explain this to my customers, when we go shopping.. i tell them we're only ther to make the selections.. if they say they can buy it cheaper.. i tell them they will assume all the liability of dealing with whomever they have to to rectify it..if we buy it from the plumber, and there is a problem.. i make one phone call.. and the plumber takes care of it.. he has the clout.. with his supply house,.. i don't.. and his supply house has the clout with the mfr.. i don't...don't you just love a good chain-of -command ?they usually buy from the plumber..
*Jim, Mike, et al,Glad everything worked out fine for everyone.As a little background, I put in a low-end American Standard toilet in a bathroom I did a few months ago with precisely the same defect. Homeowner had gone shopping at home depot and came back with this toilet. I put it in, it leaked like a sieve around the base. I pulled it off, saw the crack, pointed it out to the homeowner who was bummed he had to drive 120 miles round trip (small rural northern town here) to get it replaced. Not only that, it was not the color marked on the box!I did not charge him for the extra hour or so it took to remove the old one and re-install the new one. It was no skin off my nose, he was happy, gave me a bottle of wine, and he's one of my best referrels.A little common sense goes a long way.Mike, As to insurance, I've been dropped by both homeowners and automobile for filing repetitive relatively small claims in the past. It's maddening as hell, but understandable. Insurance isn't really there to make all your repair bills go away, it's there to cover catastophic losses (it is for me anyway). My health insurance is very high deductible, as is my homeowners and my automobile now that I know better.Crusty, about the automobile repair scenario you spun, I expect that would be covered by the terms of the warranty.Sorry for my nastiness the other day. Those who know me from back a ways on this board can attest to my relatively even keel in the face of nastiness on this board. Though a little snide sarcasm can creep in now and again.Best to all,Steve
*Kohler paid for the plumbers bill and now all of us are going to pay more for Kohler products to cover that!Rich Beckman
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Actually, Rich, the rep told me that you would be getting a discount. Because now they finally have evidence of that QA problem, they will be able to identify and remove the bad inspector, saving his/her salary (he said they pay them big bucks) which will trickle down specifically as savings for you and all customers. You're welcome. :)
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We put three one-piece Kohler toilets in our house. They ain't cheap. Plus we put in $$$ of other Kohler products. The day after moving in we saw water dripping into library. Traced it to one of the toilets, but couldn't find cause (nothing as simple as a loose supply line). Called plumber. Changed wax rings even though no obvious leak there (clean water was leaking). Still leaked. Finally found it--a crack in the bowl right on the S-shaped part of the toilet where the clean water moves from the integral tank to the bowl. Gotta get upside-down to see it. Obviously a manufacturing defect be/c the glazing on the ceramic conforms to the crack. Plumber says it's a 1 in 2000 piece of bad luck. I say lousy QA at the plant.
Call supplier. They call Kohler who says they'll replace the toilet (still waiting 3 weeks later), but if I want the plumber's bill paid, I gotta file homeowner's insurance claim and let the ins co go after them. Supplier said they'd probably pick up the tab be/c of the hassle.
For a week my wife has complained of a bad smell in a different powder room. (Hey, I use the fan!). Can't pinpoint smell or cause. She says maybe mold, but I can't find evidence. Today I find water around base of toilet (black granite tile over 8" slab makes wet spots difficult to see). Guess where I look first, and guess what is also cracked. Same damn place. I'll call my supplier in the morning, but my question is: who should pay what? It's Kohler's crappy manufacturing or crappy QA that caused problem. Would you file insurance claim to make them cover associated costs, or would you let supply co pay for it figuring money's money and the source doesn't matter? Thanks.