We have a dying septic tank that needs to be tied into the township sewer. It’s about a 300 foot run to the sewer and, with the fall, we’re about 3 feet deeper than the gravity main. Site is easily accessible and all the excavation will be over grass or small bushes that I don’t care about. Sewer lateral is already on front lawn so no street work is needed. House is 4 bed/4 bath.
Originally we were steered toward E-ONE and given the choice of a simplex or duplex setup costing a whopping $18000 and $22000 respectively. I want a solid setup but this seems like overkill. We’d probably move before spending that kind of money for a tie-in.
Two other contractors said we don’t need anything like that. They said that grinder pumps (like the E-ONE) are for pressure sewers and we just need something to move the sewage and dump it into a gravity main. One said we’d want the E-ONE if we were pumping up a mountain, but here we’re going up about 10 feet max. No estimates from them yet but they were ballparking about $4-5000.
I want to be a somewhat informed consumer but there’s a lot to learn and a lot of money at stake. Obviously we want an out-of-sight/out-of-mind pump that will give us years of trouble free service and won’t jam up if someone happens to flush a tampon or a diaper down the toilet. We want the alarm and like the idea of having a standby pump if one fails. It will be a distance in the yard so noise or access isn’t an issue.
Any pointers would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!
Replies
Bump
I have a sewer ejector installed for my shop, which has one bath and a utility sink... certainly a lot less load than you have... but the pump empties the ~35 gallon tank in just a few seconds. I ran it with the lid off a few times after installing it and it's impressive. It could easily outpace all of fixtures in the house. You might want to call one or more manufacturers and get their tech reps to fill you in on the right unit for your application. $20,000 sounds insanely high, my unit was maybe $550.
http://libertypumps.com/Products/Category/SubCategory/Product/?p=71&s=10&c=18
Around here they're called "turd grinders"!
Edited 8/27/2009 12:44 am by davidmeiland
I got a whole new septic system 200 feet away from the house and an ejector pump for $5500.00. Never had a problem with it.
No expert here. The only E-1 I have seen went into a subdivision that had a forced main. It used a 1" sewer lateral, and if for some reason the back flow preventer failed, the homeowner's day would very definitely be ruined.
I'd call the manufacturer of E-1 and the grinder pumps. They should have very specific specs on what their pumps can and can't do. The other resource would be the township itself. They should have someone there who knows which way is up.
18,000 would be a tough pill to swallow, but it would be even worse if you first put in a grinder pump that didn't work.
my son in law built a new house (3500 ft2) in south carolina about 10 years ago with a sump sewer pump with about a 55 gal size tank, in yard just outside house foundation- it lifts only a few feet and pumps to the street 100 ft away. works fine $3500 or so for the parts . Builder lost the wiring diagram and "made" the house electrician hook it up- he had 2 extra wires left over so just buried them (isnt that what the NEC says to do with unknown wires?)- every time it got full it tripped the circuit breaker (220v). on a friday we dug the top up found the problem, called the company in michigan (glad it was not China) , they faxed a wiring diagram , and we fixed it.
The township already made a few mistakes with their recommendations so I'm a little wary of relying on them for too much more info. And the variance in pricing and advice from contractors is even more of an issue for me. I just don't know who to trust. $18+k certainly doesn't pass the smell test.I guess, one other possibility is reversing the plumbing in the house. It would involve cutting a 40' long trench along the basement wall for a 4" gravity drain. Tieing into that would be two 15' trenches to collect a washer and floor drain. From there the concrete foundation would need to be drilled for the 4" pipe and then run about 150' gravity to the main.The good news is the basement is mostly unfinished so there is good access to do this. They'd have to slice a section of driveway away but it's a mess and we're planning to get it redone soon anyway.Why can't a pro come in, make a recommendation and give an estimate? It's like I have to spec out my own job and I'm certainly no expert in this area. Sewer pumps worry me.
If you have the option of a gravity drain I would absolutely do it. The hassle of cutting and patching a concrete floor is nothing compared to the hassle of getting an ejector pump serviced when you need it, dealing with power outages etc.
I'd second for a gravity system, you only need to service a burned up pump or stoppage to understand why, & of course it only happens @ night or a weekend.
I was gonna suggest leaving the septic tank and putting a pump chamber after it, that way you would only be pumping effluent . I assume that it is actually your septic fields that are failing, they could still act as the emergency overflow if the pump failed.
That said, I think I would spend a bit more to get a gravity system than rely on any pump.
Are you saying that by reworking the drain/waste lines you could avoid the pump altogether and just use good old gravity.
If that's what you're saying, that's what I'd do. Gravity usually works pretty well, is free, haven't heard of a gravity outage.
(Friend of mine has a grinder pump in his front yard. Guess when it failed? Yup, Christmas eve two years ago when he had a house full of people.)
Yes, I'd vote for the gravity option if at all possible.
Gravity doesn't fail very often, and requires very little electricity to keep it going.
I don't know where you live or your plumbing code but, a lot of areas REQUIRE all sewer lines to be drained by gravity if possible, I think thats something you should check out.
"If all else fails, read the directions"
Sounds like my system except I bought a "kit" from a distributer here in North Texas. Less than $2000 with me doing the work. 2hp Myers cast iron grinder pump, 1" line to the sewer.
Have a look through this (page 6)
http://www.goulds.com/pdf/TTECHS.pdf
I think that this will do what you need, look at the PV51 series (since you have 4 bathrooms)
http://www.goulds.com/pdf/7362.pdf
I don't think that you need a grinder pump for residential service, a 2" sewage pump is probably a better choice.
The $22k option sounds like a municipal spec. High/low levels on each pump along with an alarm system. The cost can really add up when you use duplex pumps on rails. The tanks are also very expensive as I have seen many now use carbon fiber tanks that are pre-plumbed for all the pipes and fittings.
I am guessing this is in a rural area. Do you ever experience power outages? I have a friend that got tired of pump backups and built a new system to avoid the lift station. The gould pumps are quite reliable and last a long time, but if possible I would figure out how to avoid a lift station. If the depth is a problem due to basement, you could consider lifts for those fixtures and gravity drain the remainder of the home. This will allow you to raise you gravity drain. If pipe burial depth is also problem, something like Urecon pipe insulation will allow you to install the pipe much closer to the surface. Another common problem in these instances is the minimum pipe slope. If you increase your pipe size many times you can reduce the pipe slope quite a bit.
Brad
i have 2 places with sewer ejectors.
my home has one in the basement,pumps up 8' into a gravity main sewer.
the other one is at my cabin,it pumps up a hill about 18-20'. it is outside in a hole.
if possible i would prefer to have the the ejector out side in a hole,because the one in my basement is pretty noisy when it kicks on and off.it is the check valve slamming shut that drives me crazy.
the older i get ,
the more people tick me off
Edited 8/27/2009 5:47 pm by alwaysoverbudget
Why not just have a septic guy come and put in a 1,000 gallon tank and a pump that will be sufficient for the head you have.
I can get an alternative septic system (big $$ for the septic pad and modules) for $20k, so I KNOW I could do much better for your simple needs. A 1,000 gallon tank means that you have some buffer in case of pump failure or power outage.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
That E-1 system seems WAY overpriced. Let's back up a bit, and discuss 'lift stations' in general.
First, the tank: For most situations, a single-compartment tank is fine - no need for a 'solids separating' section. A round fiberglass tank is probably cheapest, but you really have to know your ground water levels. A high water table can pop an empty fiber tank right out of the ground.
A rectangular concrete tank will cost more, but the larger capacity and easier pump maintenance make it a winner in my book.
It's more important that the tank be deep than wide. You need the depth so that you can set the pump floats properly.
Next are the pumps. Pumps generally come in two classes: repairable and replaceable. I'd look for a decent quality 'replaceable' pump (Goulds, Myers, etc.) By the time one part of the pump fails, it's probably not worth fixing it - just pull it out and replace it.
Pumps need to be sized for the job that they have to do. In your case, anything over 1/2hp is way more pump than you need. Since 1/2hp pumps generally weigh less than 75 lbs, you need not bother with a fancy rail system. (Those rails usually rust apart and the flanges never work as advertised anyway).
Grinder pumps are designed to cut up fiberous or stringy stuff that might get into the system - things like tampons. This prevents a lot of problems down the road- though you still ought to try to keep that sort of thing out of the system.
The piping in the tank needs to be plastic. Anything else will corrode away. This greatly complicates later maintenance.
Two pumps are vastly better thyan one. Sized properly, either pump alone will be able to handle the load. The 'second' pump will come on only if there's something wrong with the first pump.
This brings us to the pump controls and the wiring.
All wiring should go to a handhole / junction box next to - NOT in - the tank. Float and pump wires will go, via separate oversize conduits, out the bottom of the junction box. This will ease the replacement of bad wires later.
The floats should be supported independent of the pump piping. I prefer the three-float arrangement; if the second pump goes on, the alarm sounds as well - letting you know there's a problem with the first pump.
The pump control panel should be mounted within sight; at service time, the guy at the panel will need to be able to communicate with the guy in the pit. I reccomend panels made by SJE Rhombus; they are reliable, use industry-standard parts, and the tech support is competent. I cannot say that for every panel made.
Total cost? While digging is the 'wild card,' I expect your cost will be somewhere between $5000 and $10,000.
I have more than a passing familiarity with this topic; feel free to PM me with specific questions.
Is the tank/seperator bad, or do you just need to eliminate the leach field.
You might be able to utilize the existing tank/seperator, and install an effluent pump to pump the liquids to the sewer.
That was my thought as well, if you have a tank already in place that can store quite a bit of effluent power outages and pump repairs should not be an issue since it will hold effluent for weeks before it needs to be pumped.
Just don't call the guy that wants 20 large to do the repairs.
You might even be able to use a timer and only pump once a week, or once every two weeks etc. and in an emergency you can always just call the guy with the pump truck to come pump out the tank.
FWIW get the sewage ejection system that is preplumbed etc. at a
plumbing supply house, not "the parts" at a box store. Just alot
better package. You don't want failure on these badboys.
I like Jon Blakemore's suggestion.
Here's another possibility:
http://www.sewagepumpsales.com/contractor-sewage-pump-outdoor-package.htm
Thanks everyone for all the helpful comments about the pump setup.One detail I left out of the original message... we actually have a 3 bath house plus a 1 bath outbuilding. There is some disagreement over whether the house can be gravity w/o re-running the main drain in the basement. The outbuilding definitely needs a pump of some sort.Rather than have one pump for everything-- tie in the existing pipes to one location and pump from there, I'm going to get the house on gravity *somehow* and at a later date have the outbuilding pump to that pipe. The bldg is not currently in use but the in-laws may eventually move in. It would end up being a 1 bedroom apartment. I think a 250 gal concrete tank with a replaceable pump might be the way to go for that. It gives us some time for reduced water usage if the pump fails and if its cheap enough we may keep a standby handy. Are there other parts of the system that tend to fail besides the pump?I'll do some research on Goulds and Myers. They both have a lot more local distributors than E-1. I won't say we're the only people in town with a pump, but I don't know anyone else with one. Also, any pump/plumbing contractor recommendations in the Philly area would be gladly appreciated!We have to get rid of the septic/cesspool as the tanks are old and falling apart. Here's the link to the E-1 Extreme pump. It does sound impressive with a correspondingly "extreme" price tag.http://www.eone.com/downloads/extreme/Engineered.pdfThanks again everyone! I'm sure I'll have some questions as I get deeper into this... haha. :-)