I have a fireplace. Works good. Probably too good. The problem is the mantle face gets very hot. Can hardly put your hand on it. I had just paintd the mantle, the previous paint was discolored from the heat that it has been subjected to. This is an insert. The bottom of the mantle is just a couple of inches from the top of the metal insert. Behind the mantle is the plaster wall. Should I put some type of flashing to deflect the heat from the mantle? As there isn’t one there now.
A couple of years ago I had a fireplace dude come out, he cleaned and inspected the fireplace and gave it a clean bill of health. I did not ask him about the mantle heating up. Forgot………..
Semper Fi
Replies
wood heated over a long time at too hot to touch is not good
I was told in a fire safety class that repeated heating of wood can significantly lower its kindling temperature over an extended period of time.
That does not sound good at all. I suspect that the masonry mass is heating up your mantle somehow, but I would also hope that all the combustible framing materials are at least 2" away from the fire box, as code requires. More than one house has burned down in my neighbourhood due to improperly installed fireplaces.
bump
give us a picture so we can give some semi-valid advice
Alright all here are some pics, finally got to the house. Hope they are not too large. I did resize them, so after I post them I will learn from the experience. Learning curve. thanks in advance!
Also i don't light the fire with all the stuff as it is shown, yet. And no, I don't blow the horn!
Semper Fi
I was just going to ask about that, glad you cleared that up.
Same offering of apologies to you, I am beyond sorry if I wisecracked into you. I just ain't right.
Something about pain and fear makes me defensive, I need to work on that.
Yes we DO have a cameradity here, esp. you and I, hell, we get shiit from all over the place when we nut up, but, I did a Kramer and lost my cool...it won't happen again, OK?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
All's cool dude. For what it's worth I have a herniated disc too (C6 upper spine). I've had some luck with a non-traditional chiro. Swimming does wonders and stretching. There is an excellent stretch book by somebody Anderson IIRC. Diet also affects most ailments: you are what you eat.Again, didn't know the history behind the OP, thought it was a lark of somekind, hence the jocularity, otherwise would have got right back at you with a serious response.'Did a Kramer', I like that, sort of like 'going postal'.
C4 here/..( why does that ring a bell?)
Ya see...I have a real solid to ground reason to be pissed the fuuuck off..now that ya put it that way.
I'd rather do a Cramer/Kramer than a Broadie offa the roof..you DO know that one, being as you live in the same state as his downfall?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Broadie?? refresh my memory, vaguely sounds familiar..
Thought I would throw this in..........In the same room, I just finished this this past week. DW wanted a built-in book case and entertainment center so we threw this together. This was the first time I used MDF, not sure if I would use it again. Too many cons for me.
You did a nice job. Did you raise all the panels yourself and what finish did you use? Also what don't you like about the MDF, I'm not a huge fan of it either but it has it's moments I suppose.
You did a nice job. Did you raise all the panels yourself and what finish did you use? Also what don't you like about the MDF, I'm not a huge fan of it either but it has it's moments I suppose.
Thanks. No I didn't do the doors. I was going to just to save money. I was going to do the raised panel in five pieces which I have previously done. But I talked to the door man who does nothing but doors for cabinet shops. He could build the doors out a single piece of MDF without the all the seams. I had never seen this and it intrigued me because routers leave rounded corners and typical raised panels are squared off. Anyway, the doors, eight of them only cost $120.00. So I went with it. Wasn't worth the aggravation to build them and a sheet of MDF is twenty bucks.
I painted it with SW Monarch white. I love that stuff. And because it was latex and didn't want books and such sticking to the case I put water based poly on all horizontal surfaces and the inside vertical surfaces. Learned that the hard way.
I dislike the MDF basically because it is so heavy, dust when cutting it, hates moisture. I had a sheet in the garage one end on the floor, guess what, the next morning the end had swelled. Too much aggravation. I learned to store it on wood scraps. I do like how true it is, the costs and the way it finishes out. All in all it isn't too bad of a product, just need to learn to respect it more.
Semper Fi
Nice work.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Thank You.
I once had a similar install as yours. I'd bet what you are getting is normal convection.
sorry for my last tirade at you, somethin ain't right here on my end, and like a wounded wolverine, I can be outright distastefully nasty when I feel wronged wrongly.
Humble apologies.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Lets forget about it and get you healed........ Hey, by the way thanks for not burning the house down! Alls well Sphere. By the way thanks for all the suggestions!!!!
Semper Fi
If the navy had a slogan, I'd tattoo it on yer first available bare skin.LOL..Really. I would.
In the mean time, listen to the Piffen, he has a point.
Have you EVER gotten that insert up to glowing? Or Maybe a previous owner?
I have heated with wood for more than 20 yrs, with an assortment of devices...the only flaws you can muster up are ( in no order of importance) overfire, starved fire, and burning xmas paper wrappings.
Yer in a firepalce enclosure, the heatilator box must have a transition to the chimney, prolly a bent one at that..going out on a limb here, I'd say you have an 8'' exhaust from the heatilator, and it is stuffed into a throat that is 4''x 20'' with the cast iron throat plate sitting on top of the smoke shelf wwhere the transition begins to the actual flue tile.
With all that said, the fireplace was not designed to have an insert. Inserts will get a few farenhiegts hotter...I mean a LOT. The flue was designed to VENT ( IE, dissapate) the gasses for a normal yule log type of burn, you may be pushing the threshold by having a slower exit/exhaust. hence heating up the masonry mass or "spilling" heat off the front, and trapping it under that mantle ledge.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Piffen has it right.
Yrs ago I moved a house and did exactly what he described (except my mantle went in according to code) Too expensive to move the masonry chimney with the house.
He is also right about the wood combustion temp being lowered.
There was a series of roof fires at a military base in the south west some time back. Housing units were empty but mysteriously were catching fire late in the day , all roof fires. Turns out that solar water heaters had been installed directly onto the plywood roof sheathing , no inhabitants, no water running thru the heaters, heaters slowly cooked the wood ( something about lignites? I believe) over time the heat lowered the ignition point of the wood and they ignited. Drove the fire inspectors nuts for awhile until they figured it out. My memory is that the ignition temp fell to something in the 200 deg range.
This is not an uncommon thing to happen around masonry chimneys that are supported by wood as was often the case in old homes.
Iam listening to all that is said. As Piffen said, no screws! Really, he said put a fire block in the attic on top of the cavity. I understand that.
Listen, I don't plan on burning another fire until i understand everything ya'll are saying. Sh!t, ya'll are scarin me. Especially DW likes to light a fire when I am gone. It's different if you aren't around. Momma, youngun, all our stuff.
Ok. There I am. What do I need to do to rectify the situation? Replace the whole unit with something new and up to date? Move the mantle? I want a fire place and need to find a way to get there. I want and desire a way to get there. I guess I am asking for input.
I'll run up in the attic and get another pic to help ya'll out some more.
Semper Fi
This might solve your problem. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/30/garden/30fire.htmlSorry, I forgot I'm not allowed to play with you anymore ;-)
Man you give up easy..you and I and Shep and MarkH got chastised MUCH more heavily, and you hung it out, c'mon ya whimp..LOL
Good link BTW..
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
You never told me who Broadie was??
The first "jumper" off the Brooklyn Bridge or the GW..I forget.
He didn't die fast, took 45 minutes in the hosp. to call him dead.
I picked it up from local 30B ( now there is a saga of Sopranos type storyline, the mob and roofing, caddys and guns, pinstripe suits...and a skinney redneck that don't capieche.., me)
So, when we get to a hairy development, we avoid at all cost, doing a "Broadie"
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Kill'in me....... :-) LOL
At least the wife won't burn down the house, just a few pixels now and then. ;-)
As long as me and the son are gone she can do as she pleases! Maybe she'll stay long enough to make sure the lamp is lit!! :-)
Best thing possible is to see if you can find something that gives you a manufacturer and model #. even back in the 50's they had to meet underwriters codes for insurance purposes.
If not , check out some online "zero clearance" units. Both Majestic (sp?) and Heatalator(sp?) are still made and sold today . Look for installation manuals. Most companies have them online, should give you what do to for a correct install in a PDF format.
Short of that I would follow the local code for mantle clearances and side clearances, including projecting distances/distance to firebox or surround ratios.
I am curious and don't remeber reading in the thread if you have a metal or masonry chimney, but if it metal might think about a thorough inspection of it as well , they do burn out over time. Not a huge deal in Metal-Bestas type, but lose the liner in triple wall and you are gonna have a fire, just a question of when.
Metal asbestos will lose the liner in a chimney fire too! I've actually replaced more of them from chimney fires than the triplewall type. it is a myth that the solid pak types do not suffer from the inner wall collapsing. They do have less creosote build up in same conditions otherwise, but once the chimney fire is raging, the updraft is so violent and the metal hot enough to be soft, that the draft vacumns the lining in to collapse it. This is actually good. The resulting blockage helps dampen the fire
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Thanks I will remember that .
I don't trust either of them all that much , but have seen the triple wall with the inside liner burned thru and the cooling space ending up being the flue. Not from flue fire , just old.
They do have a limited life no matter what causes the failure.
Google up the install instructions for heatilator and majestics zero clearance fireplaces. That'll make it cleaar enough what your goal is. Probably remove the mantle to start, then increase the size of the framed openning if need be. Use cement board to approach the openning on both sides and above, or just lay up realbricks there. Check the triple wall pipe to see if the joints have at least three SM screws in each, spaced approx evenly around. look for any stress cracks in the metal. This is easiest done by being in there in the dark and having somebody burn newspaper, a sheet at a time in the flue. Alternately, hang a flourescent lantern by a rope, gradualy moving it up the whole thing.Framing can be 2" from triple wall if it is installed well, but the firestop spacer - You have a big gap up there. Normally a metal piece surronds and supports the pipe and acts as a firestop, but to fill such a large space, you may need to frame and SR and tape it. stopping or slowing air movement stops or slows flame spread, and in this situation, slows the acceleration that comes with the "chimney effect"Wa sit this thread where somebody said don't burn Christmass wrappings? They are mighty hot when they flame off. I do my annual chimney fire that way, LOL
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Here are the pics from the attic. After a couple glasses of wine, I appreciate ya'll getting me into that dusty attic space. Got my azz in trouble for dragging the insulation into the house! Appreciate the help!
Now you've done it!
Have I ever mentioned how much I hate cellulose insulation?
I started coughing at just the sight of it. You DO need to vacumn that loose cellulose out of that space. Installers are supposed to build a shield around any heat appliance like this. Cellulose CAN burn. I have seen that in three instances. Don't trust too much to those retardent chemicals! That face wall is nothing structural, so it will be easy to rebuild.The joints in the pipe are twist locks, but for safety, should still have three sheet metal screws in each lock joint. Or pop rivets. not there fro strength, but to keep it from rotating. Metal will expand/contract, expand/contract, expand/contract, expand/contract, from heat and cooling, and sometimes will walk itself apart.What you have is not as bad as I pictured it, but does need attention before you go lighting off any big ones.Now go finish off that bottle of wine, put the kids to bed, and calm DWs feaars - or let her calm yours, whichever wing is working tonight.
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And while you're at it, put some traps up there, I think I saw some droppings in the corner.
He has a kitty litte box there, whaddya want? Never hear of fair chase rules?;)
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I thought that box was strategically placed to catch embers leaking from the flue.
He has a kitty litte box there, whaddya want? Never hear of fair chase rules?
;)
I was like what in the world are you talking about? I had to look at the photo's again myself. pretty observant......... Keeps the mice at bay.
Semper Fi
Here is the installation / owners manual for a Majestic Warm Heat zero clearance.
I am familiar with it because it is the unit I have / installed.
The whole manual is quite helpful but to answer your mantle clearance question, pay close attention to pages 13 and 14.
http://www.vermontcastings.com/catalog/elements/files/2006/20000583_WMC.pdf
You will find that the info in the link follows what Piffin has told.
I will try to get some pics of my setup fwiw.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Thanks for the link Jhole. If you can get pics that would be great!
Semper Fi
looked at the manual you sent. Looks like there is supposed to be at least 6" between the top of the fire place and the mantle. 12" to the shelf. Seeing I am at 0", it looks as though I am 6" out of spec. Well no more fires until I get this thing fixed. In the short term I will probably go ahead and cut out a section of wood so I can still light a fire. Then the long term will build one or use what Spere might bring down later this year.
Thanks for the manual.
Semper Fi
"will find that the info in the link follows what Piffin has told."Good to know that my memory still works occasionally
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Aside from from the attic stuff. Dude cellulose rules!! :-) I was and am concerned about the mantle face. Whatcha think I need to do to repair this? I was kinda hoping a simple flange might divert the heat, maybe not. Piffin, that face gets hot, real hot. Obviously nothing has happened this whole time. We have been in the house for 10 years. The mantle gets so hot the color changes in the paint. I just don't want to burn the shack down........
Maybe totally rebuild the whole mantle and raise the face from the firplace?
Remove the fireplace and replace it with something current and correct?
I'm open........ well somewhat.......
Semper Fi
At the least, I would rebuild mantle to get it up away from openning. I forget now what it looks like, style wise, but irf you can get it off the wall in one saved piece, just add plinth blocks under the legs?
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As I was just now shutting down those photos, I saaw there is apaper label stuck on the top piece of pipe. That should have a brand name or clue on the fireplace manufacturer for you. Fireplace pipe is proprietary, not generic, unless different fifty years ago.
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I forget now what it looks like, style wise, but irf you can get it off the wall in one saved piece, just add plinth blocks under the legs?
I don't think that would be an option. If I were to pull it off half of the plaster on the walls would come off! Been there done that. But I could cut some of the mantle away a little. Sounds like a new tool buy, "multi" tool or fein. Whatever ya'll call it.
Semper Fi
Fein multimaster
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I had ONE chimney fire in an unlined rock flue. No it wasn't Xmas wrapping, just some SYP in an airtite stove..that sumbiatch ROCKED the cabin like a C-130 on ramp up.
I will never forget that experiance, nor repeat it.
Watch me jinx meself here, I got the woodstove cranking with the ash door open to allow more draft...this is the first season with this double drum heater, I have a hard time getting the stack temp up to snuff. It draws well, with 15' of single wall then 6' of triple out the roof, but the second drum messes with the flue temp adversly.
Had a warm spell last week ( heck, this morning it was 70) and I ran the brush down and nothing was even close to being gooey.
Nuthin like a hot fire for chimbly maintenance.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Hell Sphere what the hay do I need to do? This is a serious thread. Take your arse somewhere else! :-) Gotta love it mate.......
Semper Fi
It is perfunctory and cursorary that every thread contains at least one (1) Hijack.
So ya want BIC pen tattoo or Japanese black.?
I do awsome work with a sharpie and a KBAR..if you really want art, I'd have to stuff yer neck for 30 seconds, in my armpit, then go for the guitar string hooked to a casssette player motor...I am sure you have at least one field tat.
I don't remember when some one got me.. I chose the Right arm art, but when I saw the Declaration of independence on my willy, I was shocked..it's long read.
My wife has it memorized..go figgure.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
I do awsome work with a sharpie and a KBAR..if you really want art, I'd have to stuff yer neck for 30 seconds, in my armpit, then go for the guitar string hooked to a casssette player motor...I am sure you have at least one field tat.
Field tats, yes. But not the real ones! Ink pen. If you are steady I am game. I'll be sure to catch you on a good day....... :-)
I do have two tats though. One is pretty obvious. Uncle Sams Misguided Children. The other is Japanese character writing. Funny is I got it in the states and not over seas. I was always scared of the practices of ink elsewhere. Probably better now.
Semper Fi
Yeah. stay away from Japanese ink...I knew a squid that went belly-up when he got sideways in a tat hall, drunk and they used Urushru or how ever they spell it in Okey-nawa. Apparently, there is a use in furniture making but it is a lacquer, not an ink.
Contains high levels of something akin to mercury or condensed poision ivy..I can't recall the whole saga.
My best work was doing a dogtag complete with chain on a guy, smack dab center of his chest..I knew that hurt like hell, but he was game..all the little balls were done in BIC blue, from nape of neck to his nipples.
I got a pic somewhere around here..we laffed heartily cus I left off the last digit of his SSN for no reason other than I could.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Okey-nawa
I had a good time there. Did massive amounts of diving and drinking Purple Haze.......
I will never forget how fast those taxi's drive!
But I will say this their beef rules like all get out!! Kobe beef. The story is they fatten them up on beer and have the little man massage the cow while it is on the hoof.
Semper Fi
My scariest was n't really a chimney fire. But close.It was when i had a wood stove store, and I was living in a room in the back. The display model was also my primary heat. I fired it up, and left the door open a crack for good reason, as you know, and went out to get in some more firewood. I guess I got distracted and dillied and dallied a little long. When I came back in the whol eplace was roaring and the heavy black pipe was red hot for 3-4 feet right off the topp of the stove. It was so hot, I could see through the metal! watching the flames damcing inside of it! could even see the wall paper patter on the other side too. I grabed a fist full of newspaper and stuffed i t over the fire, slammed the door shut and closed the draft controls on the stove, then stepped back and asked for help from above. I could hardly keep from looking at that pipe though, as it finally cooled down.
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Yep,
once turned the pipe hot enough to see the two holes in the damper plate inside the pipe.
Learned what the old saying "listening to a stove breathe " was all about, damn things joints would expand open and the fire would roar until it ran out of air to burn then it would contract , this with the whole stove shut down and the damper wide open! Spent one sleepless night that night!
the huffer puffer type pipe!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah..our first winter here I did that..imagine a 55 gallon drum with a 6'' flue glowing red..and 6 feet away you can see your breath.
We be toasty right now, but that 2 grand and change for the insulation aand faom sealing...was a cost I didn't quite figgure in.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
This might help:
http://www.heatilator.com/products/fireplaces/woodFireplaces.asp
Just remember if you burn the tree there as well to put it in tip first , pulling it out against the grain when it erupts is a bit**.
;-)
Just remember if you burn the tree there as well to put it in tip first , pulling it out against the grain when it erupts is a bit**.
Thanks! I'll push harder!;-)
What do I need to do to rectify the situation?
Well, I'd tell you that the first choice you need to make is "How do I want to use the fireplace."
That might seem a bit self-evident, but is not, in some ways.
If all you (or, more importantly, DW) need/want is 4-5 "decorative" fires in a year, then you're much better served with a sealed front gas burner (many of which come with remotes, even). Need the 'romantic' effect of a fire? Click the remote, there it is. Not only that, but the sealed units don't need expensive termite bait near the door, are not hoovering expensively conditioned air out the chimeny, etc. Now, you can't roast chestnuts, burn marshmellows, or hazardly dispose of xmas wrappings--which might be a greater good over all.
Now, if you want heat from wood to supplement the rest of the ehating package in your house, want you want is a good recirculating unit (preferably with a sealed front). You'd want a spot to store firewood, too, and all the fun that can be.
Either answer will want some changes in the mantel, surround, and chimney/flue/chase--all of which you are a bit "due."
Or, you could just leave the candle display in there, maybe get a ceramic log set to put on the grate, and call it even. Ok, you don't get to have fires in the fireplace, but you also don't cook the mantel either. But I know I'm being far too sensible in suggesting that . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Hey Sphere it is a new day! Besides what in the world are you talking about? :-)
Peace brother.
Semper Fi
Good quality pics.Next time you have a fire, watch closely and if the solder starts melting out of those joints on the horn, you ARE going to burn the house down. :)If you have a meat thermometer, you might use it to survey temp of air flow from the grate in front and the metal temp where the box contacts the mantelIf the hot mantel turns out to be from contact with the top flange of the box, it looks like you might be able to carefully cut back the horizontal face of the mantel a few inches above the box and cover the flange with 1/2" brick veneer that matches the sides. BruceT
Edited 12/1/2006 7:46 pm ET by BruceT999
now that I've seen a couple of photos, and studied this out, I think that the house was moved after demolishing the original fireplace and chimney and this unit (What you have is not an insert but a zero clearance unit. Most are by Majestic or Heatilator.) substituted to get it back on the market or in liveable condition as fast as possible. The mantle is either a fit for the shape of the original or it was an off the shelf item installed with no experience or thought given to whether it fit or met code. That in itself is a warning!!!
If thedy could skip essential safety points in one place, what else did they skip?Firestop spacer into the attic for one. If a fire starts in that chase ( fairly likely, given the low clearance at head of openning) it has easy run of the house. The flames could be rolling out the attic at the vents before you had a clue there was a fire raging. I don't think I'd burn more than acandle in it without extensive corrective action first.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
A pic would really help. It is common for the heat to rise up and cook the mantle, but thinking that you are in the south maybe, just maybe you are overfiring by burning SYP or liveoak? They both throw a ton of heat.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
I'll post a pic tonight. Am at work. I do burn live oak. No to the yellow pine, too much sap, worried about the cresote. I may need to get that guy back out and have him inspect again and tell him about the overheating problem. I was worried about the box not being sealed correctly and may be putting heat were it doesn't belong. Then I thought about a piece of flashing may divert the heat away from the mantle surround. But then again that would be a bandaid to a real problem.
Semper Fi
Ok. You may be just overfiring the firebox. This is supplimental heat I take it?
One can warp the damper plate and have flue gasses get diverted to unwanted dead space around the chimney / flue connection..this is not always a fire hazard as so much as it can be a trap for un-pyrolized contaminants, that will eventually gas-off and then become volitol...not something you'd wanna have happening behind a wall.
I see a good flashlight and a pointy type probe in your future to explore the nooks and crannies around your damper assembly, if the condition is not caused by an overfire.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
I guess I could light a fire and go up into the attic and look down into the box recess and see if I see a "glow" from the box or see if there is excess heat coming from that area. Thanks for the help.
Semper Fi
I'd also be inclined to look at the stack termination, you want to have a clean residue of ash that is fluffy, not gummy..if ya catch my drift.
I'd swabb out the flue first..get the fiberglass rods in 4' sections and have at it with an appropriate sized brush..you wil have to shopvac the smoke shelf above the damper plate after you purge the flue...that carbon can hold a lot of heat.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Pics good; but, while we're at it, can you describe how the insert is, well, "inserted"?
Is this a wood-burning box set into wood framing, or is it in masonry? Is this a from new, or a remodel?
How far from the insert is the mantle? Is this a heatilator (whether by brand or jsut type)? If the mantle is close to the circulation vents, and the fan is not on, there's a bit of heat coming out of those vents. That heat could be trying to cook the mantel.
I'm hoping for the best, but kind of cringing for the worst here.
Some folks I know are rather unhappy with their big national builder. Seems they framed up to the height of the insert box, then laid the very cool-looking 2" granite top over the back-venting front-and-one-side heatilator insert. The designer handily included al lthe conenctions a person could want for an a/v installation up over this 4' wide, 33" deep "mantel." Which would have been much better had someone read the insert destructions and put some insulation between the insert and the stone . . .
Oh crap..he did say insert metal box, my bad.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
can you describe how the insert is, well, "inserted"?
LOL.
I have an older home, plaster walls. Around the early 1950's.
Insert is in a wall cavity. At least two foot around the insert. The cavity is wood, like a column going straight up into the attic, cavity is at least eight foot tall. From the top looking down there is a large hole in the attic and I can see the top of the fire box. The front of the fireplace (the Box) is flush with the interior wall.
I'm not sure of the manufacturer of the fireplace, was there when I moved in to the house. The house was moved. Thus I am inclined to believe the fireplace is not original. The original was probably removed prior to the house being moved? but this is an interior wall and can't see where the original fire place might have been brick rather than an insert. Did they have inserts in the fifties? Not sure. The hearth is masonry. I did put split brick horizontal on the sides of the box where the mantle is but none on the top side of the box due to no room, the mantle starts there. The mantle actually covers the top flange of the box where the split brick covers the flanges on the side.
You might have hit the problem with the vent. I don't have blowers but the vent is on top of the fireplace just under where the wood from the mantle starts. The mechanism to operate the damper comes through this area. But for the life of me I can't recall that area where the "vent" is getting hot, must be though. If I look through this vent area I can see the flue pipe and damper mechanisms.
Edited 12/1/2006 12:55 pm ET by Jarhead
You must have a very warm attic.A suggestion that would possibly kill two birds with one stone... But would probably also mean quite a bit of work to implement...You have a big box there. Two feet clearance to all sides of the woodstove, and open straight up into the attic, if I read correctly.I would suggest you tear into that box. Remove your mantel. Now set up some sort of fan/blower in that area, and have it blow directly out over the top of the woodstove.The air can feed in at the sides of the stove, and blow out over the top.You figure out the asthetics yourself. LOL That is the basic idea, though.That will circulate air all around the woodstove, it will solve the problem of the structure above the stove getting too hot, and it will make use of heat that would otherwise just be going straight to the attic.Put a thermostatic control on the fan, so it doesn't blow cold air. You might even find a variable speed blower, and thermostatically control that, so that the hotter the air, the harder it blows.
Get over it....... The angry going eat you up. ~Brownbagg '06
Thanks Luka, I'll keep that in mind.
Did they have inserts in the fifties?
mantle starts there. The mantle actually covers the top flange of the box where the split brick covers the flanges on the side.
I don't have blowers
I want to say Heatilator has been around nearly that long. At least "we" are all pretty sure this is not a gas insert used for wood (and abomination that ought be stomped with six-league boots).
Bad that the mantel laps over the box, means you are getting conduction heating, too. That likely means moving the mantel up off the insert box is in your future.
How much in your future may depend on whether or not you can score the 1/2 price 3" red & green candles down at Hobby Lobby for the holiday season. Probably not a good idea to spot that holday village, garlands, cards, etc. up o nthe mantel if it's getting too hot to touch.
Odd that there's no blower. Many of the older models had to use the blower to insulate the outer box. (Excepting, of course, those that didn't--ain't this biz fun?)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
WQhat you are desdribing does NOT sound like an insert at all. it sounds like a "zero clearance fireplace" which is builkd of sheet metal and is not really zero-clearance, but requires 2" to combustables.An insert is a type of controled air wood stove made to fit into masonry fireplaces that in their original form are not efficient at all. you have not described any sort of fireplace into which this thing is inserted. you have described a "chase" into which the unit is installed.Regardless of any of the above, the facve surrond is subject to codes for setback of combustable materials, 12" above and 6-8" to each side, with a hearth floor 18" to the front and 12" to each side.Somebody mentioned that wood which is repeated overheated is not a good thing.
This is true. The wood becomes carbonized - that is, it turns gradually to charcoal like substance with each successive overheating. The flash point is lowered over the course of time from around 450° to less than 375°. Flash point is that temperature where any combustable material will burst into open flame only from application of heat and oxygen. I am suprised the chimney/fireplace guy did not pick up on the danger scenario. Maybe there arre so many like that in your area that he ignmores them anymore...I don't know...
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Looking at the pics I want to know about that piece of metal on the top of the insert that is in contact with the wood. Is that part of the insert, or a filler that has been added to fill the gap above the insert and below the wood mantle? How hot does that piece of metal get? Real hot I would bet. Is there an air cavity behind the metal that allows heat to rise directly to the wood above? The way it is installed, it not so much of an "insert" as it is a face mount. From both an aesthetic and safety standpoint I'd like to see brick showing between the metal top piece and the wood mantle. I wonder how high the brick that is unboundedly behind that metal goes up the wall? Really, even the side clearances are pretty small (4"?). There are building codes for clearances. Since this insert appears to be an after the fact add-on I don't think codes were observed. Might want to check with the insert manufacturer installed clearance requirements if that is possible.
If the brick goes up high enough, I'd like to see you remove the mantle, put plinth blocks under the legs of the mantle, and then reinstall it higher on the wall. If that doesn't make sense, I can get a pic. Also, reinstall the insert as an insert, rather than a surface mount if possible.
Not to be too much of a curmudgeon, but I think you are playing with the health and safety of yourself and your family in a serious way with the way that thing is installed now.
Not to be too much of a curmudgeon, but I think you are playing with the health and safety of yourself and your family in a serious way with the way that thing is installed now.
No, I understand which is why I am here now trying to determine the problem so I can repair and or replace.
If the brick goes up high enough
The brick only goes as high as you see it in the photo. I added the brick for asthetics only.
The metal that is in contact with the mantle is part of the insert and can't be removed or moved. The only air cavity I saw was where that vent is. Which extends to the top of the insert. When I look into the vent area on the metal all I see is the flue pipe.
I understand what you are saying about raising the fire place mantle and putting plinth blocks. Piffin suggested this also earlier. But the walls around the mantle is plaster, the mantle and walls has years of caulk and paint. This would pose a problem removing it to the point of just raising it. I will do what I need to do in the name of safety. I need to really look at the mantle set up and see if I might be able to cut away some of the mantle "if" it doesn't deter from the aesthetics of the whole unit.
I may and probably will need to just tear the mantle out and replace it in lieu of just raising it. I have the ability and tools to build one.
Semper Fi
>> I may and probably will need to just tear the mantle out and replace it in lieu of just raising it. I have the ability and tools to build one. <<
That sounds like a plan to me. Building a larger one will also cover the damage to the walls that will undoubtedly result with the tear out. You could probably build a pretty nice mantle for $100 or less in materials. Think about the style of the rest of the house and try to come up with something consistant.
I'm a little confused though - this is a metal insert in a masonry fireplace - right? seems odd that the opening is not bordered on 3 sides with masonry.
I wonder how a 3 piece slate or marble surround would look. In the houses I'm building I'm thinking the slate is $200, the marble is $400, and the (admittedly cheap) mantle is $200 - these are installed prices. On the slate/marble typical is 6" wide legs and an either a 8" or 12" header. Personally I like to see the mantle shelf up above 5'.
BTW - I didn't read all the previous replies - there are a lot of them. Hope I'm not continuing to be redundant.
BTW - I didn't read all the previous replies - there are a lot of them. Hope I'm not continuing to be redundant.
No, you are helping.
That sounds like a plan to me. Building a larger one will also cover the damage to the walls that will undoubtedly result with the tear out. You could probably build a pretty nice mantle for $100 or less in materials. Think about the style of the rest of the house and try to come up with something consistant.
That would be great! What is daunting is the mechanics of building the mantle. Or the way to do it. I have in the past looked for books on mantle building that utilized cut away views so I can figure it all out. Building my kitchen cabinets were no problem so this problem of building a mantle almost seems funny because most people see cabinet building a daunting task.
Semper Fi
Quick pics, pardon the mess.
good info in that attached manual.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
That is what I need to do, like you have the tiles around the box then the mantle. Nice mantle. Thanks for the tips.
Semper Fi
Oh boy, I just caught up with the thread. So would you now like a new (old) mantle /surround? I have 2 to offer up.
The best looking one is walnut (painted white) and I WILL measure the OA size if ya want.
I'll be headed south between xmas and Newyrs...I can haul it. It needs a good home.
The other is painted some ungodly orange and is white oak..both need work to be pretty, but structually sound in all respects.
Free for the asking.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
The best looking one is walnut (painted white) and I WILL measure the OA size if ya want.
Damm, that's nice! I'll give ya a kiss. :-)
If possible whenever you get a chance, could you try and measure them and show pics? That would be awesome! I would like to make sure they would fit before you go through the problem of bringing them any distance. By the way where in the south are you going to?
Semper Fi
we'll be in thru Asheville, Atlanta and Tallahassee on the way to Ft Myers as the final destination.I am gonna be renting a car anyway..free mileage..I useually get a Nissan Pathfinder and the mantle will fit if i yank a few screws and nails.
Pics later.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Hey, no fair. What do I get. He got me in trouble, not the other way around.
we'll be in thru Asheville, Atlanta and Tallahassee on the way to Ft Myers as the final destination.I am gonna be renting a car anyway..free mileage..I useually get a Nissan Pathfinder and the mantle will fit if i yank a few screws and nails.
Pics later.
Hey look. If you have the need for one and you have room to tote it I'll swap you out for a Biesmyer 52" fence system I have laying around. Rails and all. Fits a contractor saw. I had upgraded to a cabinet saw and don't have a need for it. Lets make sure the mantle fits before you go to any trouble. Thanks again.
Semper Fi
Could always go with Art -Deco ..
One I did , whole hous is Art-Deco trim.
(Hope the pics transfer OK 1 st. time trying)
Nice mantle designs. Wouln't quite work with our decor though. I would have to find another DW!
Semper Fi
Totally wicked cool Art Deco fireplace!Trap set by new hole. Hole plugged. 2 other traps have not been gersnicked. Yet.
I'll second that on the deco hearth surrond. Looks like it belongs in Travolta's Florida home.
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Thanks for the kind words...
Home owner is a good friend. The columns are primed sheet metal bent over a plywood and 1x armature. I didn't come up with original design , the designer did, handed me 2 shts of 8 1/2" x 11" of paper with a sketched design , told me to figure out how to make it work. She spec'd the material ( maple, stainless, black formica). It was supposed to be finished off by having the columns painted like the old Seeburg juke boxes of the 30's, never got done. The tough part was making the cuts at the end of the horizontal maple that steps out from the fire place, because of the curve (which is elliptical) of the sheet metal each one changed just a bit as you came up to the mantle.
Fun project all in all though .
"I'm a little confused though - this is a metal insert in a masonry fireplace - right?"See above post - not an insert!
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Please, please, please, stop using the word insert here or you will confuse yourself and how to apply codes, how to find information on the web etc. This unit is not an insert. To have an insert, there must first be a fireplace to insert an insert in to.This is a zero-clearance fireplace, built in
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This is a zero-clearance fireplace, built in
Alright my bad. Don't know much about fireplaces. Thanks, learned something new. I have been used to real mason type fireplaces. I "assumed" all else were inserts if all you do is throw the "metal" box into a wall. So I have a zero clearance built-in fireplace.
Semper Fi
ps. sorry if I confused everyone!
OK, I won't need to take my ruler to your knuckles and wash your mouth out with soap now!;)
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Maybe I missed it somewhere in the post, but...
...agreed - it is supposed to be a zero-clearance fireplace and not an insert, given the installation. That doesn't mean that it is one though, and certainly would not be the first FUBAR situation to grace the hallowed halls of BT University. I don't know enough to tell which one it is from looking at it.
I did see in the pic down the hole from the attic what appears to be one course of firebrick above the unit, and what looks like cement board on either side. That would imply an attempt to try to get a zero-clearance install right. Personally I'd want more non-combustable above the unit than that one course.
If this were my house and family I'd be real tempted to yank it and replace with a replace with a new zero-clearance with external compustion air and a a sealed chase. I realize that can get pretty pricy, but I'd justify it from the saftey aspect and just find the $$.
Baring that I'd say pull the mantle, confirm that the enclosure meets at least minimum codes, seal the chase and install a new mantle with appropriate clearance. Definately Fein Multimaster justification!
you made me go back and look again, in between doing surgery on the wifes PC. i am as convinced as I can be that this IS a zero-clearance unit, without actually seeing the UL plate on it.The details of the front are same as any zero-clearance I have ever seen and the view from up top of the chase shows the web flange that all makers use on top to establish clearances.I see where the face brick was liad across above it, but no cement board along sides. There is a diagonal stiffener in the metal side that is typical for ZC units, and there is a bunch of cellulouse that has fallen onto and around the unit which he is going to vacumn out of there promptly after he builds a frame and fire stop above to keep more of it from falling down in there.
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while I was studying this all again, I see that the actual firebox openning seems to be about 8-9 inches down from the mantle and looking at it from above, it looks like the brick over this are standing on end, giving you about 8" from opennning to framing ( combustable material) This would be consistent with codes as they were many years ago.The main source of the concern we all have is the heata build up at that wood mantle trim. when you run the fan, it is dumping a lot of heat right out the topp there. I do believe it is possible to have a sheet metal shop craft a flange that would direct the moving air further out into the room as a temprorary measure. How it would look is another matter, but it would certainly help.
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Other than agreeing with Piffen on all his advice so far I wanted to add that I just re-read the early posts and realised that this unit has no blower or fan. It does appear to have an air inlet directly under the firebox.
Could be that you might lesson the problem by thinking up a way to install a small blower that would accelerate air flow across the box surface and thereby lower the temp of the air coming out the vent at the top of the fireplace opening.
Seems I saw a small unit once that was made for this style unit, fit right in front of the air inlet at the bottom of the unit
Too damn hard to second guess from here, so I will quit.
There are plenty of small squirrel cage fans for stuff like this.I missed that fact. I thought I saaw a plug tail hanging our, and most ofthese I've worked around did have fans, so I was prone to my own assumption there. Somebody spank me.
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I haven't googled to look for some type of fan yet but am I to assume the fan blows into the lower vent and convects out the top? Or does the fan pull the air from the top out the bottom?
Seems to me if the fan pulled the air out of the bottom, the temp at the top would be minimum, thus reducing the heat on the mantle face. But then again that might affect the way the fireplace draws and might pull the smoke into the house through the fan. I don't know, I am intrigued about the fan option. Would also be a way to really heat the room.
Semper Fi
Jarhead,
Your assumption is correct . Air is drawn in from the bottom and expelled thru the top vent. It is just a power assist to natural convection.
These fans were an after market set up. The older units sometimes came with the options of ducted inlet vents mounted either in the fire place face or off to the side a bit. Used 4-6" flex pipe to connect to the heating chamber, fans were optional. One things that set me to thinking about this was I thought I saw a "knock out" in the side of the unit in your posted pic ( the one taken from above that showed the side of the unit, might be able to get Piffen to crawl up there and peer down to see if I am right ;-)) . Pic wasn't clear enough for me to really tell though.
By the way , if you do this might want to vacuum out the bottom vent as best you can or you may be getting a new DW. Probably a lot of dust and fine ash in there from years of use.
Best of luck and very nice work on that entertainment center by the way .
I wanted to add that the fan is in no way a permanent solution to the "clearance to combustibles" issue. I would still recommend the permanent fixes that Piffen and others have. Follow the guidlines in the PDF you down loaded for that, put the fire stop in , and clean up in the chase.
But until you can get to that part of it I think this will help relieve the stress, and in the long run , yes the fan does help heat the room.
No you are right. Not a permanent fix by any means. Did not take it that way. Thanks for all the help.
Semper Fi
The side clearance is calculated from the openning of the firebox, not the side of the metal side flange, so the metal face and the 3-4" of brick are used together in total to see if it meets code.
It is the space above that concerns me
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The side clearance is calculated from the openning of the firebox, not the side of the metal side flange, so the metal face and the 3-4" of brick are used together in total to see if it meets code. It is the space above that concerns me
I am going to measure everything tonight. At work again. Can't get away from here! I feel the whole measurement thing is way out of wack. In the end I feel I will need to get another mantle put in. I just can't do it before Christmas for obvious reasons. DW would strangle me! I told her no more fires until we repair the discrepancy. I am glad I brought this all up on the forum. Ya'll have really helped me out tremendously seeing that this has been bothering me for sometime. I have been on borrowed time seeing we have been in the house 10 years now. I have been worried that as hot as the mantle face gets that it would self ignite.
Semper Fi
Semper Fi
Jarhead,
I hope this isn't too late for your planning for a new mantel....
http://www.fireplacesnow.com/mantel.html
Clearance distance changes with the projection. The diagrams show it well. I always do better when the books have pictures.
Also remember that covering combustibles with tile or brick do not change the fact that they are still combustible. A good product for working around stoves/fireplaces is "Micore" insulation/hearth board. It's a good substrate for tile and insulates framing from extreme temperatures.
Another "trick" for reducing mantle temperature is to use a sheetmetal shield and ceramic spacers to create an air space. The shield heats up first then the movement of air in the air space carries some of the heat away before it reaches the mantle. This can help to reduce the discoloration you are seeing. This shield can be camouflaged with high temp paint.
Please post some pictures of the finished project.
Garett
Please post some pictures of the finished project.
Haven't done anything yet. Waiting til after the Christmas Holiday season. DW wouldn't have "her" house ripped apart for the sake of the mantel. She is content to lighting no fires until we redo everything. Thanks for the diagram, that will help. But whatever we do pics are in the plan for download!
Semper Fi
As I remember, you are in Alabama, so there is certainly no hurry. You only get 3-4 cool days a year down there, so anytime in the next ten years will be soon enough
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As I remember, you are in Alabama, so there is certainly no hurry. You only get 3-4 cool days a year down there, so anytime in the next ten years will be soon enough
That is too true. Shouldn't have let the cat out of the bag. I was looking for sympathy!!
Jarheads don't need sympathy, Jugheads do;)
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That site is a geat resource and the drawings/charts on that page are great for explaining that.But notice the clearance above they show starts at a minimum of 6" according to the NFPA codes. I have never heard of them, but assume it stands for National FirePlace Asso..This was the clearance used a LONG time ago. Most building codes now require more clearance above and to the sides, pluys the protrusion allowance that you point out.
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NFPA is the National Fire Protection Association, these boys and girls write the codes that affect fire and life safety issues. They are the Gold Standard for any issues that fall under their area . Building codes often defer to them and they are referenced in code books and in fact are part of the Building Codes. Things like exits, almost any fuel burning device, ventilation , venting , need for sprinklers etc.
My Dad was Chief and Fire Marshal for many yrs. and that code book was part of his kit.
You can google their site up.
Which is not to say that the chart posted may not be out of date or contains misinformation or imply any thing else. I suspect that the manufacturers of these units have to show compliance with this code in their literature or prove why they can escape being held to it.Edited 12/3/2006 8:57 pm ET by dovetail97128Edited 12/3/2006 9:06 pm ET by dovetail97128Edited 12/3/2006 9:08 pm ET by dovetail97128 Damn I should use spell check more! lol
Edited 12/4/2006 1:09 am ET by dovetail97128