We took out a coat closet in our home only to find two pieces of romex coming up from the basement SD to our upstairs hallway SD. Those are the only two hard-wired SD’s in our house.
There is no easy solution for moving the wires. Keeping the wires where they are will require the construction of a faux beam which we really don’t want.
We live just outside of city limits and are in no-man’s-land regarding getting answers about code – I already tried. There is a good chance that where we live will be annexed by the city so I want to deal with this correctly.
So I’m curious how these wireless SD’s work and how they are accepted by code for residential homes.
I’m hoping I can install a wireless SD into our basement location and then place several more wireless SD’s around our house. I assume wireless SD’s have one unit hard-wired and the rest are just battery operated?
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I don't know code where you are, but here, the eletricians need to know what the smokes will be. I have three choices, either battery, hardwiored in electrical system, or hard wired as part of a security system that autodials FD.
Regardless, the home must have the smokes in each BR.
As an aside, I hate battery op ones, they are most prone to failure, and who ever checks or changes the batteries. I remember a case in this state from a year or two ago where a apartmant building burned and peoiple died. The landowner was up on charges that he failed to provide adequate alarm system. His defense was that he had the battery smokes all over the place, but the tenants took the batteries out for various reasons, some probably to alleviate the painfull noise that accompanies false alarms, but another to use the batteries for other items, like radios.
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Piffin has one more choice than I did. No battery units allowed here, for the reasons he cites.
I opted for smokes as part of a security system. Monitoring not required. Considerably simpler pulling alarm wire than romex. Any decent alarm installer could point you in the right direction for minimal disruption. Certainly no beam required.
DIY friendly, but you probably want consultation.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Am I missing something in terminology here?
He is saying "wireless", not just battery operated individual smoke detectors.
When I hear wireless now days, I think of units that communicate without physical connections between them.
The purpose of interconnecting the smoke, either within a security system, or just within the house is to give a whole house alert in the event of a fire. One goes off, they all go off.
I don't know if there is such a thing as a wireless smoke detection system available. but it does sound like a good idea for both retrofits and some remodels. Probably take years to get NFPA approval though.
Am I splitting hairs, or does wireless just mean battery operated?
Dave
You're mostly correct. Don't know what's available for smokes with wireless security systems as I don't think much of them. I'm sure they are available. Also sure they aren't allowed here.
Wireless is, obviously, battery operated. The fact that a receiver hard-wired to the panel would receive the fire signal still means a battery powered smoke and transmitter. Not allowed here.
Anywhere battery smokes are allowed, like for Piffin, it would be a far better system than a simple battery powered smoke if the whole shebang is "supervised", as in the system periodically checks all components to ensure they are working and warns the user if not. Without supervision (many wireless systems), you have no idea if anything is working. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I would put hard wired in wherever we can
but we dont have to
wireless meaning no hard wiring , no interconnected
but only in remodels, thats the code here
I have a similar question. We have an Ademco security system with 2 wire detectors. We are redoing rooms that are not on the present system. Do the 2 wire alarms just daisy chain or parallel with the others? Do they need a seperate zone?"Democracy is when the people know exactly what they want, and get it good and hard." HL Mencken
We have an Ademco security system with 2 wire detectors.
Are we still talking smokes here, or have you gone on to burglary? Either way, there's just about no chance everything's home run to the panel. 2 wire smokes are newer than my experience.
A separate zone is always nice. If fire, little point though, other than troubleshooting. Bear in mind that fire requires a 24 hr zone. Panels often have the option of any or all zones being 24 hr.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
The windows are reed switches, the smoke detectors go into the house alarm. I have a mother in law apartment and a two zone alarm. If the alarm trips up or down, the horns blow in both areas, which I prefer as either party now has another party alerted. The remodel is an older area with battery run, and I prefer the big horns. Our cats however, definitely do not."Democracy is when the people know exactly what they want, and get it good and hard." HL Mencken
I don't know the name brands used here by the local monitoring company, but they all home run to the master panel, and any zone can be put to sleep. The systems can have a number of different monitorings going on. Motion detectors, door or window entries, cold alarm ( so caretakers get notice of furnace going out before freezeups destroy things) along with the heat ( boiler room) and smoke alarms
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they all home run to the master panel, and any zone can be put to sleep.
Right. Each zone must be home run. Each zone operates like a separate system, all reporting to the same place, whether local alarm, dialer, central station, or a combination. The reason multi-zones are better is that one or more zones can be defeated and the remainder will still give protection. Single zone is all or nothing.
The old panel in question only had 2 zones, likely a burg (with both delay and instant) and a 24 hr (fire, or whatever). With only one burg (or fire) zone the components will all be linked, daisy-chained was the term used. Could be either series or parallel, depending on the panel and components. Home run possible, but highly unlikely.
That's what I really enjoyed about the alarm business, apart from the amazing money, the availability of hooking up all sorts of pieces to get as creative as your imagination allows. I've got a pretty good imagination. Well, and whatever the client's checkbook permits. After awhile everybody quits spending, which was noted in my contract, limiting my liability.
One liquor store had problems with stolen pickups being backed through the block wall. Once, picked the wrong spot and moved a huge walk-in cooler over a couple feet. Very difficult to get back in place. I mounted shock sensors on the walls so that the siren would go off with the first blow. Cops showed up sometime later. Same sensors I used to protect a drop ceiling for a neurosurgeon who had a major lawsuit going with a hospital.
For that one we went considerably further with a series of 24 hr zones protecting the repository of the paperwork. To get into the next area, you had to turn off the zone, which triggered an opening/closing report, along with the identity of the individual, known by the on/off code used. Playin' and gettin' paid. The guy's house was similar, sans the multiple 24 hr zones. Then he listed it. Realtors wouldn't deal with the system. It was turned off when he got cleaned out. With the first 2 steps inside, the intruder tripped 4 sensors, which had nowhere to report.
I expect in your neighborhood freeze protection is top of the list.
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Edited 8/14/2005 12:00 pm ET by VaTom
Just a few thoughts,
generally speaking, you can add as many detectors as you want to your system,( there is a limit but you probably won't exceed that in your home).. either in parallel or by extending your existing circuitbut horns or lights are limited by the output of your panel. You may already have the max. # of audible devices for that system.Also, you should make sure that the new and existing devices are compatible,that is,......" of the same mfr." as the existing ones in your home, or Ademco might just wash their hands of your "modified " system"
Also, you should make sure that the new and existing devices are compatible,that is,......" of the same mfr." as the existing ones in your home, or Ademco might just wash their hands of your "modified " system
I can't imagine that anyone, especially Ademco, would be stupid enough to attempt to force any installer to use only their proprietary hardware. The only thing etherhuffer really has to pay attention to is whether the contacts are NC or NO and if the loop is end supervised with a resistor. That panel certainly has no warranty by now anyway.
The Ademco panels I've run into worked just fine, but weren't current state-of-the-art. Since then, Ademco has absorbed some of the mfgs. that I used hardware from. Etherhuffer's got an antique there, likely 30 yrs old. Well out-dated when I sold my business 20+ yrs ago. $100 worth of panel would bring the system up to something both easier to use and a more reliable system. A few more zones makes a better system.
My wholesaler, who thinks I'm still a security company (I didn't sell the name), was very happy to sell me mix and match parts when I bought the last system 2 yrs ago. Wasn't an Ademco, but they offer them. When they asked, I told them I'm mostly involved with physical security, like self-closing gates and large pieces of concrete.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I wrote that they were just thoughts, and your experience exceeds my grasp of those particulars. I was speaking from commercial / industrial experience with FA sorry if I added confusion"
Always good to consider other perspectives. Commercial is sometimes different.
I once was asked to wire a jewelry store. After learning the licensing requirements, I had a reality check. Small part-time security business, what were the odds that I'd ever run into another jewlery store? Turned out to be 3 weeks after I declined the first one.
At the time I was trying for a balance of security 1 wk/month with the other 3 weeks in my wood shop. Income was the same. What surprised me was the value of my monitoring contracts when I left the area.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Aside from hooking up some audible panic bars at a Costco, I have never worked on any security . ......I don't have the double secret clearance"
That same liquor store, with the trucks through the wall, wanted hold-up protection. There are lots of ways to do that but you're still dependent on police response. I put a doorbell button under the register. It turned on a small siren in his next door restaurant and alerted the kitchen crew. We hoped they liked him enough to go see what was going on. The testing worked out OK.
The only reason I'm (mostly) out of the business now is that in our small community, sole-proprietor businesses have major problems with vacations. In the city I could get another small alarm co. to do emergency work if I was out of town. Almost never happened (once in 10 yrs- amazingly, our place- panel fried), but somebody had to be available. In a small community, it's your main competitor doing that. Not a good idea.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Our Vista 20 is 9years old. It works well and indeed zones can be turned on and off. With our cats, you can't have pressure or IR sensors as the puddies sett of the system. But, we put in an IR anyway and just kill it(its one zone itself). This is really an ok system for us.
I can see where there is huge bucks in these systems. Its electronic tinker toys. We are not the paranoid types but we like having a system and this one suits us and our tenant just dandy. After doing the tear out for our remodel (almost everything is gone) you can see that the skill of putting in a system is wire routing. Getting holes bored without hitting a wire or pipe takes some knowledge of building styles. Imagine running the drill right into the 240V or the main water copper line!"Democracy is when the people know exactly what they want, and get it good and hard." HL Mencken
Installing isn't the most fun part. Design is. There are specialized tools that help immensely.
I gather you actually do have more than just one burglary zone plus one 24 hr zone, which would be the 2 zone panel you mentioned. Pretty hard to find one of them 9 yrs ago, but then very few would have been looking. I'm actually using one now on an outbuilding, but the panel dates to the 70's.
There are IR motion detectors available for use with pets, lots of them. A dual sensor one will work fine. They're often used by companies with inept designers to avoid false alarms. Other than user error (the major problem by far), wrongly placed IRs is the leading error. Suddenly moving hot, or cold, air is the culprit. Even a single sensor IR, properly placed, works with pets. Climbing, and jumping, cats can be a challenge.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Reporting process and police or fire dept responce time is both the best and the worst of these systems. Here, the report generally goes first to the caretaker for fire, but to th ehouse for breakin, then to caretaker, and to police if no other reponse. I have tripped break-in alarms numberous times for various reasons ( like the time the caretaker went home and locked and armed the system while i was still working in the other end of a house, or the time the HO gave me a key and never mentioned having an alarm system)False alarms generate distrust in the PD and so their responce can get lackadasical, or can generate penalties from the cops for false alarms. I remember that from reserve cop work in CO. There is not much police here, so first responder to break-ins would be a caretaker, at least fifty percent sober, with a .45. I'd rather have a cop catch me.There was one instance here, where the alarm company got a fire alarm, and called the sleeping "caretaker" who didn't answer his phone. So alarm called fire dept. They showed up and saw no signs of fire and sent a guy to the caretakers house for keys to open. They pounded on his door and he still claims to have slept through it all, so the fire guys broke in to search the house for smoke. This triggered the break in alarm. No cops on island to call out, so they called the response number automaticly per procedure. Can you see where this is going? He still didn't answer the phone, so a no-answer report was filed. Finally the next AM, this jerk went to the house for his daily walk-around and found the door broke in. He calls the security company to complain that the alarm didn't go off...but they told him about all the non-responce penalties that would be added to the bill...When the owner found out, you can guess which way the fan was blowing sh!t
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Love it.... I have yet to meet a cop who likes alarms. Unless he's selling them on the side.
A physical therapy business had a rape, near murder, on the premises. The victim, bleeding profusely had been alone on the 3rd floor and managed to convince the attacker to take the elevator down, where she jumped out into the lobby.
This was way beyond my normal burglary duties. We had an employee meeting where I gave everyone their choice of portable panic buttons, silent, audible, or both. All was well, victim recovered. They tightened access, of course.
A few months later one of the principals went in on a closed day, entered a code, saw the green light, and went on in. Not wanting to talk to patients, she didn't answer the phone call that came in seconds after she did. The code she'd entered was the alternate, sending a hold up signal to the central station.
10 minutes later she looked out the window at the SWAT team, Denver's finest. It came with a large bill. I declined the offer and pointed out the equipment had performed correctly. Offered to disable the hold up reporting, but they decided to leave things as they were. Didn't make that mistake again.
You never get away from user error.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Dave,You're exactly right - I was referring to SD's that "talk" to each other. One goes off and they all go off, even if they are not hard-wired together.I was hoping to keep my basement SD hard-wired and then use a wireless replacement upstairs.This is not acceptable according the city code that starts just 1/2 a mile down the street. I can do what I want but still prefer to follow code in case we are annexed in the near future.
we can put wireless smokes if they
1) are in an area not easliy accesible in ceiling ( in a remodel and drywall in place)
2) in a room wher no other drywall or constrution work is happening
3) we install with 10 year lithium battaries