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My local window maker claims that nobody makes wood window sash using mortise and tennon construction or dowels anymore…
His technique relies on the glue joint at the coped inside detail…essentially an end-grain to side-grain glue joint…never good woodworking practice in my experiance.
Its been many years since I’ve had anything to do with making wood sash.
I’d like to hear from those of you experienced in making or purchasing wood window sash before I conclude that this guy is a scheister…
BTW…the sash in question is replacement sash in a ca.1915 craftsman and is casement type.
Thanks,
Robert Hudson
Replies
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Robert - I wouldn't say 'nobody' but mostly high end makers like Woodstone, etc.
Jeff
*Help! We are trying to choose windows for a whole house rehab. Every window needs to be replaced. We are looking at Marvin, Weathershield and Eagle. Has anyone ever heard of/worked with Eagle windows? I can't find anyone locally who is familiar with this product and I don't want to spec something unknown, unproven. Thanks!
*If you are in the price range of Marvin and Weathershield, please take a look at Lowens as well.Especially if you will not paint them inside and want to show off the woodgrain.They use Douglas fir.
*This is strickly my opinion, but I would RUN from weathershield. While I have never installed them, my house is full of 15y/o weathershield casements. Maybe 2 out of the whole house still close properly.
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In FHb's book 'Windows and Skylights', 1995, they have an article on pg 35 on building casements. The author used mortise and tenon on the sash.
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Seems to me you would be better off to build your own from scratch.
Pete
*I use full mortise and tennon joints with a 2 part epoxy glue. I lay out so the stiles, or vertical members, sandwich the rails. That way any moisture will run off the joint before it works back into the joint. I have experimented with half laps, dowels, cope and stick, screwed half laps, and probably more I can't remember. Mortise and tennon gets my vote. The last batch I built I let the stops stand proud about 1/2" and caulked that joint. I really like that detail too. Oil base primer with latex top coat. And I second whoever it was that endorsed Douglas Fir. That was the reason I decided to build the windows for my own house 15 years ago, I didn't like the Pine virtually all the wood window companies used (and most still do). VG Fir, Watco Natural, a thin coat of polyurethane, and a few years to age to that deep golden red - it doesn't get any better than that.
*Hey Jim,That Watco Natural, what is it a stain? I've got 42 Loewen windows to finish and I was just thinking about doing them clear with Poly, but your method sounds nice, especially since my house is a timberframe. Please let me know. Thanks.Matt
*Yeah, M/T and epoxy is the nicest way to go (but not the cheapest). I'm not sure what you're saying about the stiles and rails; I lay out so the stiles run into the rails, which are the full width of the window (the rail lays on top of the stile, so there is no endgrain exposed to standing water). I've restored a fair number of old old windows, and the ones that have stood up best all had this detail.Dowels are in my opinion the stupidest way to join wood ever devised; I have to use them occasionally, but there are much much better ways to do it now. I would buy a cope and stick window over one made with dowels anyday; there is a fair bit of glue surface there.
*Hey Adrian - what I mean is that the stiles run long, inside and out, sandwiching the tongue of the rail. So when you look at them, it looks as if the rails are cut between the stiles. Now that you mention it though, about standing water, I guess this method does expose twice as much endgrain to the joint between the sash and the sill. Almost all the sash I've built were for either casement or awning windows though, and I try to leave a pretty healthy gap all the way around, say 3/16", to let any moisture find it's way out. The very first few sash I built were half lap joints, and I layed them out so the interior stiles ran long, thus the exterior rails ran long and the horizontal joint did catch water and eventually most of them failed. For a single or double hung sash, you have an excellent point. How's the wife and sweet child?
*Hey Matt - "Watco" is a penetrating Danish oil. It has changed hands at least twice in the past few years, but I think you will find it at most any home center. All the cans I have are real old (a few years ago they announced they were going to stop making it, so I went out and bought several gallons) so I doubt I can help with an address or phone number, but maybe someone else will chime in who bought some recently. They make several shades, but I try to stick to "Natural" and use a different species of wood if I want a different color. It's real easy to work with, and if you don't poly over it, you can rub on another coat or two anytime to freshen it up. Good stuff, well worth checking into.Another oil you might be interested in is "Meldos" by Livos. I used it last year on a floor and it is a bit darker than Watco, but it's citrus based so there are virtually no toxins in it. Just a pleasant orange scent when you use it. I haven't had time to experiment beyond that floor with it yet, but I intend to.
*Hey Jim-You have any drawings, or pictures of casements you've made? I've never considered making them, but when I read your post, this sounds like a hell of an idea. My place is a timber frame covered with vertical cedar. The 'Weathershields' are not cutting it. I'm guessing there is no reason I couldn't make up new sash to fit in the existing casements. For some reason I figured I'd have to go through the hastle of replacing the whole casement.
*Yeah, I have some photos, but no scanner. I'll take some with me to Petefest tonight and try to get someone there to scan them in. I'm sure you could build them yourself, nothing tricky about that.
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Adrienne,
Just looked at Eagle the other weekend, IMO no comparison to Marvin. I found that the window prices were very close but the Marvin Sliders are very expensive. Pella looks to be a much better constructed window than eagle too. Just my opinion, but I'm going with Marvin.
Ed
*I'm a slave to an 1820 brick house in a Landmarks Preservation district in New York City. Windows are like sieves (and I have heating bills to prove it). Went to a showroom today and was shown Crystal windows -- there was a choice of aluminum or fiberglass coated (to mimic wood) and are so ugly I couldn't believe it. Windows are obviously not standard sized and I don't have a bottomless budget. Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
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Ann - Consider rehabbing the windows, adding weatherstripping (to stiles & rails) and interior storm/screen combination. Your problem in NYC is finding people to do it, I'd guess. Out here (central NJ) we have a couple of terrific restoration painters of national reputation who do this work and have systemized it to the point where the rehab/strip/repaint/weatherstrip combination is roughly the cost of good-quality replacement windows, while preserving the old. One of them recently stripped, reglazed and repainted 40 DH sash windows in two days with two guys.
I'll ask around for NYC reference - maybe Vince would know someone you could trust.
Jeff
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My local window maker claims that nobody makes wood window sash using mortise and tennon construction or dowels anymore...
His technique relies on the glue joint at the coped inside detail...essentially an end-grain to side-grain glue joint...never good woodworking practice in my experiance.
Its been many years since I've had anything to do with making wood sash.
I'd like to hear from those of you experienced in making or purchasing wood window sash before I conclude that this guy is a scheister...
BTW...the sash in question is replacement sash in a ca.1915 craftsman and is casement type.
Thanks,
Robert Hudson