Replies

1. 
   Guest_ | Jul 30, 2000 05:20am | #1

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   All the wood and clad mid-range windows we have used lately use the same detail with a screw for fastening. No glue...I know 'cause I've taken them apart to replace glass. Haven't had any problems but experience dates back only a couple of years.

   Glue only in this detail seems suspect. It would seem casements put a lot of load on these joints.

   Don't know about high-end windows but I'll pull a Marvin sash next week and let you know.

   Bill

1. 
   Guest_ | Jul 30, 2000 05:25am | #2

   *The cope/stick bits work well, but I share your doubts regarding long-term stability. Whether making window sashes or glass paneled door frames, I'll float a tenon in the joints between the stiles and rails.

2. 
   Bob_Chapman | Jul 30, 2000 05:50am | #3

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   I also make doors and windows with a floating tenon. Haven't had any problems with that type of construction. i have always been concerned that the cope-and-stick joints alone were not going to last, but have no practical proof of that.

   Bob

3. 
   Guest_ | Jul 30, 2000 06:06am | #4

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   A good friend of mine was just shopping for windows. He tells me that the Marvin rep told him that no one made good double hung windows. The price competition was too steep in double hungs, so they never have the top grade wood, etc., etc., etc. The rep said buy casements if you want the good windows.

   Whether there is any truth to any of that, I have no idea.

   Rich Beckman

1. 
   Guest_ | Jul 30, 2000 06:59am | #5

   *Rich, I dunno. I just set a house full of Marvin Ultimate double hungs and, let me tell you,these are some damned fine windows. Order came 100% correct (although credit for this should go to sales rep) and on time.I've seen Kolbe&Kolbe, Anderson, Pella, Windsor, Eagle, and others and was really impressed with these. Based on my experience, they aren't too concerned with price.Wish I could convince more of my customers to use Marvin.Bill

1. 
   Guest_ | Jul 30, 2000 07:33am | #6

   *Rich, I agree that double hungs, in general, are inferior to casements in terms of eliminating air infiltration...but as for aesthetics?I've got no problem with Marvin D-hungs.

1. 
   Guest_ | Jul 30, 2000 04:59pm | #7

   *Well...I'm here to tell 'yaAny body using just glue on the cope is a lazy ass and doesn't care much about his product lasting. I work in historic restoration and one of the things I do alot is build window sash. I'm generally replacing sash that are in the 150-200 year old range and more often than not, the mortise and tennon joints are good, tight and strong. The sash will most often die as a result of sun and/or water damage. The problem that your local guy has is that most router bit type sash sets are set up so they will not cut a tennon, only cope so you must do a floater as mentioned above. The exceptions I've found are a Freud bit set that makes a short tennon that positively locks the cope in place, and a CMT set that will allow you to make as long a tennon as you want which is nice because you can peg it in place. If your guy is using shaper type bits I don't know what his problem is other than that it is probably a matter of production (time=money). There is a company that produces this type of work on a commercial scale and even pegs the tennons on their muttons, not just the rail to sytle connection. Their name is Woodstone and they are out of Vermont.REAL nice product but you have to pay for it. If your local guy just will not make tennons for you, have him (or do it yourself post-facto) run a 3" #10 galvanized screw through the styles from the outside edge into the end of the rails. It's not a bad way to go and you eliminate the clamp time on your assembly. The screws will never be seen and they will reinforce the joint consiedrably. If you want a modern, high effiency, low maintenance, grade A++ window, buy a Pella aluminum clad. Nobody can touch pella in my opinion. Their aluminum nailing flanges are worlds better than plastic or something that must be nailed thorugh brick-mould. With no leaks, they will last a life time.Good luck and dont pay for crap work!Be Well, Phat Bastard

4. 
   Robert_Hudson | Jul 30, 2000 08:48pm | #8

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   Thanks for the feedback.

   Much appreciated

5. 
   Robert_Hudson | Jul 30, 2000 08:48pm | #9

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   My local window maker claims that nobody makes wood window sash using mortise and tennon construction or dowels anymore...

   His technique relies on the glue joint at the coped inside detail...essentially an end-grain to side-grain glue joint...never good woodworking practice in my experiance.

   Its been many years since I've had anything to do with making wood sash.

   I'd like to hear from those of you experienced in making or purchasing wood window sash before I conclude that this guy is a scheister...

   BTW...the sash in question is replacement sash in a ca.1915 craftsman and is casement type.

   Thanks,
   Robert Hudson