I’m going to build 22 wooden sash, double hung windows for installation in my own 1873 Second Empire style home. I need project-specific reading material on the following subjects: sash joinery, choice of materials wood, choice of materials glazing. What’s out there?
Replies
Are you serious?
Yes I am. I'm serious about building and installing the windows and serious about my desire to read what other people have to say about the process.
Jim
Jim, Are you just building the sash or are you actually building the whole unit with weights and frame as well? That sounds like a very interesting and challenging project. You might look around for sash thay will fit your frames if you still have the original frames. I recently replaced several rotten or missing sashes by taking the few existing parts to an architectural salvage yard and was able to find exact replacements. This was early 20th century, 1873 might be a different story. Have your original sashes been replaced with thermopane junk? I mess around with old windows a bit and would be happy to help although the only thing that I know about building entire window units from scratch is that it is out of my league. Is your top sash rounded, that would make the salvage route a tough way to go. If you have options other that building from scratch I might be able to help. Good Luck. Jay
Not sure of books but you might want to start by going to an architectural salvage company and buying an old dbl hung window then taking it apart.
Regardless this would be a huge undertaking to say the least. I think i'd go nuts b4 i finished 2...... and the counter-wieghts, ugh.
Jim, I entered "Building window sash" in the advanced search option of this site and discovered a trove of information including a few books that should get you on your way. I would also recommend poking around the "Knots" site as they might be better positioned to answer questions concerning the level of joinery that building windows requires. Good Luck again. Jay
Hi Jay,
Thank you for taking the time to respond to my question regarding wooden sash windows.
I am building the entire unit; sash, weights, frame, and some kind of counter balancing or friction system. The original windows were replaced years ago with a shorter version. Plus, they used 'eight over eight lights' (I think that's the proper phrase). The windows that I am taking out are very well made, it's just that they were designed for a different kind of architecture. I will be building a much taller window, total height about 9 feet. And, thank God for this, the original style was a 'one over one' version (no cross-members or muntins, just two big pieces of glass inside two big frames).
In answer to your question regarding the shape of the top of the window, the originals were squared off and not rounded.
You mentioned that you entered 'Building window sash' in the advanced search option of this site . . . do you mean the Fine Homebuilding site? And what is the 'Knots' site?
Thanks again for taking the time to respond.
Jim Glose
You might try over at Fine Woodworking, as this is shop work rather than job site work.
I'm replacing 40 windows, and just painting them before I put them in is really getting boring. Two windows might be fun, but 22 is going to be a huge amount of work. Try doing a couple of the less important ones first to learn some skills before you go ahead with mass production.
-- J.S.
Hi John,
Thank you for taking the time to respond. I like your idea of building a 'not for prime time' version first. This project will be made simpler because the original design was that of a 'one light over one light' style. Not having to build in muntins will save me countless hours.
Jim Glose
There's a dandy article including many pics and illustrations on the Fine Woodworking compilation disc if you can lay your hands on a copy.
Article is entitled Making Window Sash and was originally published in the Dec/83-Jan/84 issue.
Hi,
Thanks for responding. I have the Fine Woodworking CD that you refered to, it's on loan from my brother. I'll do another search, because I scanned the various headings in the thing that I thought was the index, and came up empty.
Thanks for the site listing of the original article. If all else fails, somebody will have a copy of the original issue.
Jim Glose
I goofed! ......again. The article on making the window sash IS NOT on the FWW disc, It's on the Fine Homebuilding disc.
I've got the search feature set up to search both indexes simultaneously, hence my confusion. The layout of the article appears as if it would be in FWW, but alas is not.
On a side note......I think you already know this, but just in case.....Although the shaper is the preferred machine for sash production, there are sash sets available from several of the big names in router bit manufacture. You'll need a hefty enough router to spin these and a router table.
Sorry about the goof.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Hi,
I went home last night and nosed around the Fine Woodworking disk again. By now you know what kind of results I had. No big deal. I later discovered that issue # 18 of Fine Homebuilding is the one you were referring to.
When I tried to buy that particular back issue on line, I discovered that it is no longer available, or no longer in print. Go figure. Anyway, one of the responders to my question suggested that I purchase a book called the 'Ed Knox Window Book' from an outfit called buildersbooksite.com. I ordered it last night. It's one of those situations where the book is $12.95 and shipping is $9.95. I hate when that happens.
I'll read anything I can get my hands on.
Thanks for your input.
Jim
I used to do repairs and replacements for old style windows. Originally used stock left in the attic of an old 1927's lumberyard that we bought and converted to a Building Center. The elderly gentleman that had been part of the old yard became my mentor for many things including the repair and building of sash.
It is very tedious and time comsuming as we had to do cut downs and customs by hand. The BIG Boys have special machining set ups to all the individual cuts. The FineWoodworking article will show you what is involved with a shop set up. If you need a copy mailed let me know and I will photocopy and forward.
Here is the phone of a company that I used after the old stock ran too low to cover the common calls for rebuilds. I asked for the sash to be shipped "KD", knocked down, in order to eliminate shipping expense.
Salb Sash & Door 312-247-7255 Chicago, Il
Salb handles alll manner of thicknesses and styles, plus will do custom sizes and muntins. You can also buy footage length of the stiles, rails and stops.
Good Luck on the project how ever you approach it!
..................Iron Helix
Hi,
Thanks for your response to my question regarding wooden sash windows. The windows I am building are 'one light over one light'. This will preclude the need to manufacutre muntins, even still, I'll call those people in Chicago.
Thanks again,
Jim Glose
couple years ago we replaced over 100 sashes in an historic building. The window people made them out of heart pine.
Hi,
Thanks for taking the time to write. Heart pine is one of the wood species that I keep reading about as appropriate for this kind of job.
I appreciate your effort.
Jim Glose
Building windows is a great project, Jim. Go ahead on. Books?
"Ed Knox' Window Book" - I got my copy from Builder's Booksource in Berkely CA. He was a local glazier there in the Bay area for many years and apparently decided to self publish a book. Not professionally edited or illustrated...has that homemade plastic spiral binder, misspelled text...but if you only had one book to learn from, this would be your best bet. Talks about building out of square sash to fit in old jambs, what type hardware to use, all kinds of good stuff. Try http://www.buildersbooksite.com. or give them a call if you can't find it online. I called them to place an order once and thanked them for that book and was raving about it and they said "great, I'll let Ed know next time he comes in the store".
Another great resource is the Taunton compillation book "Windows & Skylights". Two articles in particular are "Making Window Sash" by John Leeke - FHB issue 18, and "Cranking Out Casements" by one of FHBs best authors ever Scott McBride - FHB issue 50.
I don't know if these folks have a website yet, but call Resource Conservation Technologies (410) 366-1146 (Maryland) and tell them what you're up to and that you want a catalog. They make all kinds of weatherstripping for windows and doors - flippers, bulbs, sweeps, you name it, in various sizes and materials. Good company. Good stuff.
If you get stuck, give me a holler. I have built several windows over the years and am building and installing a casement/fixed/casement unit with true divided lights for a friend next month. The opening is something like 110"x55". Neat project.
Hi Jim,
I sincerely appreciate your encouragement. I've done 'major project' work in the past, and was soundly derided for even contemplating the undertaking. My method of operation is to plod along, step by step until the job get's done. One would think that my detractors would know by now . . . but fortunately for me, there is an endless supply of detractors. (I'm probably preaching to the choir here. After all, where else would we get the fuel that drives us?)
The thinking, planning, and experimenting is the most time-consuming part. That's why I posted the message on the Breaktime Wall. If I have confidence in the ideas, I can proceed with assurance. What better group of people to ask?
Thanks too for the information about the book and the Conservation Technologies Company.
Very truly yours,
Jim Glose
I haven't read through all the responses yet, but the first reference that comes to mind is the old Audel builder's books. The earlier edition(pre-1949), and maybe even later, have diagrams and instruction for general mill work including windows and doors. Most of the information and technology is from the early 20c., including machinery. A lot of great information. I do a fair bit of restoration millwork, and I use these books from time to time.
You can usually find a set(4 or 5?) in the used book store.
Hi Dave,
Thanks for your response. I'll look for the Audel books. At the moment, I'm plowing through Modern Practical Joinery by George Ellis. This is the second time through, but the first where I'm reading cover to cover. You've probably got this on your shelf or at least have heard of it. It's a little like trying to read Shakespeare's work . . . I understand the meaning of almost every individual word, but when linked together in sentences, the language is foreign and I have to work extra hard to stay awake. Something written in the 1940's should be easy by comparison.
Thanks again,
Jim Glose
In reseaching the sash project before I start a posting, I found your post. Hope the project went well. My feeling is that the traditional double hung model is ultimately superior to any manufactured window in the long run, especially when there are so many tweaks available, for ex. vinyl kerf in weather stripping etc.
Gregg
looks like he been AWOL since 2003..don't hold yer breath.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Why look here?
My first project was to build one upper and one lower sash as replacements for old rotted ones. I used mahagony. I'm happy with the finished product, however, I was working under a deadline and did not take the time to build a new frame. Even though the new sash fit nicely into the old frame, I can see where building the whole unit would make for a more satisfying final result . . . that is, from an asthetic and energy effieinct point of view.
I'm glad I did it. I learned some new things, and anticipate future window projects will be that much better.
Thanks for your interest. Don't hesitate to write with questions.
Jim Glose