Replies

1. 
   Guest_ | Dec 03, 1999 09:36am | #1

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   I think what the installer is talking about when he says it burns is the optical clarity of the quartz fragment adjacent to the cut line becomes opaque when subjected to heat. Probably, some step of the fabrication is done with a waterless tool. If he's tooled up with these, he needs to invest in tools that use water. Tell him to use lots of water for cooling and to slow down his rate of feed. (That's great, I'm telling an ID to tell the installer...oh bother)

   As far as chipping, again, he needs to slow down his feed or at least eliminate vibration during cutting.

   If he cut the sink holes in the wrong location, and it was his fault, he is the new owner of a slab. Before I make any cut in a slab, I get it all in writing, signed and dated by everyone involved in this phase of the project. A measured scale drawing accompanies such documents.

   As far as the installer getting a signed acceptance, I'd say he is just trying to cover his okole. Sounds like an adversarial relationship.

   It sounds like you have lost control of the project. I base this on two things: 1)he made the wrong cutouts--who changed their minds? Or, if not that, why was it not accurately communicated? 2)The installer was allowed to make a substitution. Is it possible this was done between the owners and the installer without you in the loop?

   $2,000 may sound like alot of giggles, especially for a 'lil 'ol bathroom. But, trust me, for slab work, it may just cover materials.

   I know you didn't ask for any of this, that you simply asked about the rock itself. But, the majority of your text is about these issues, hence an invitation for comment.

   BTW: I could load you up on all kinds of information on Quartzite, but mostly it is about the mineral itself and the composition of the rock. Don't think you'd be interested.

2. 
   Donna_Smeaton | Dec 04, 1999 04:47am | #2

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   Hi Rich
   Thank you for the info on the quartzite. You mentioned that the clarity of the quartz fragment becomes opaque when subjected to heat......does it return to it's original colour once the slab cools down? No one has ever told me to be wary of chipping or discolouring when working with granite or marble...is this a problem with quartzite only? I take it that quartzite is not sensitive to acids either like marble is.
   As for the "fun stuff" about losing control, I unfortunately was never given control of the project. I designed and drew up 14 pages of plans, elevations, details etc. along with 20 pages of material/spec info and that was the extent of my role. (The client didn't want to pay me a project management fee...he's an engineer...no offence...my dad is one too.)The clients chose to purchase their own fixtures and finishes (plumbing fixtures, lights, tiles, slabs etc.) and they hired the cabinet maker and granite guy directly and had a separate GC who had his own subs...plumber, electrician, tile setter. Anyhow, the DAY before the slab was to be installed, the guy called to say he couldn't get the Rockwell Pink granite...he'd had the order and deposit for over a month. A panicked husband called me to find a substitute immediately because his wife was leaving that night on a 2 week holiday. A second rate substitute was agreed too. A day later, I was called by the wife, all happy because lo and behold the Rockwell was going to be available afterall. A week or so later, another panicked- husband call....the slab looks like *&^%$# can you come and look, oh and by the way, he has installed the substitute not the Rockwell for some reason and he cut the two sinks in the wrong place..... despite my detailed drawings and his guys doing a site visit for templates. The tub deck pieces don't match at all. There is one joint where the slab is peach butting up to gray. According to the sketch he gave the client, you can tell he didn't cut from the same slab. The installer actually admitted to the client that he personally didn't look at the slab prior to having his guys cut it. My specs clearly state that the client is to approve the slab prior to cutting......Yee gads...it's going to end up in court. I think from now on, I'm going to walk away from any job where the client wants to "act" as their own GC. So, once again I yack on about the project administration, but I figured I should "clear" my name. I know alot of IDs who waltz around jobsites, point fingers, demand the impossible, take no blame, and aren't very knowledgeable
   ( well except for stuff about wallpaper, fabric, carpet and mark-ups /kick-backs...oops did I say that)...I've worked with a few of these prima donnas....I'm definitely NOT one of them.
   So, Rich, if I haven't totally scared you off, I really would appreciate more info....I enjoy learning.
   By the way, I've printed out your reply and will mention your comments to my client...it's their decision and money afterall.
   Thanks
   Donna

3. 
   Guest_ | Dec 04, 1999 08:57am | #3

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   Donna, thanks for the return post. To tell you the truth, my experience with IDs is dismal. 10 out of 10 IDs will screw up the project. Anyway, that was what was in my mind when I cautiously responded to your first post. Actually, I like the aspect of design, it's only those who try to make a living at it--without adequate knowledge--who jerk everything out of whack. For those, I have little tolerance.

   No, once the opaqueness develops, it will forever be that way. I have actually identified supposedly "invisible" cut lines just by the mineral recrystallization at the cut. This should not terrify you into thinking this will be the case, simply understand that there is the possibility. This holds true for other stones, especially marble. Marble is simply dolomite/calcite which has recieved more heat and pressure over time.

   The chipping usually occurs when a relatively larger crystal is on the cut line. The tendendency is for the entire crystal to separate from its matrix. In Quartzite, there are especially large quartz crystalls which will shear away from the silica matrix. To cut through such a crystal--instead of it chipping away--requires the fabricator slow down the rate of feed when cutting.

   I hesitate to use any acid on stone--who knows what impurities may exist in the slab--but, yes, you are correct in that quartzite is generally non-reactive to HCL.

   That the installer chose to join two otherwise unmatched slabs in a highly visible location makes me think A) he is used to commercial work, or, B) he is new and not yet cognizant of the myriad details which make a superior job.

   My take on all this is the husband and wife deserve what they get. That they have seemingly made the decision to oversee this phase, yet contemplate vacations is negligence. If this does wind up in court, their negligence could be an issue.

   As you have stated you were only to consult, I don't understand why the owners are contacting you regarding installer/owner screw ups. If nothing else, your specifications will only be used to prove fault of some party. I'd answer the phone one more time, tell it how it is, than am-scray on to bigger bushes and better berries.

   Understand it is not my intent to give any legal advice or that what I have stated should be construed to be legal advice. I have, unfortunately been caught in circumstance like you describe. When the crap starts flowing, those who thought they could control it turn to anyone and everyone with knowledge for advice. They have turned to you to get them out of the predicament in which they placed themselves, yet it is now too late for you to be completely effective at repairing the damage.

   Perhaps, you could enter into a new contract with the owners, acquire the authority to sit down with the installer for a good long talk, find out the problem, correct it or start from scratch. However, I don't know if you want to assume the risk, especially after the debacle you describe.

   If you still want info on the Quartzite; the nature of the rock, details on fabrication, whatever else I can think of, let me know.

1. 
   Guest_ | Dec 04, 1999 10:29am | #4

   *I have always insisted that my client accompany me to the importer/slab yard to personally inspect/choose and sign the slabs for their project.That includes the templates for each surface. Never mind that the yard guys will have to move the slabs out into full view or even whether the client must accompany me from Ohio to Chicago or San Francisco or from San Fransisco to Philadelphia for a day or more. The expenses associated with the process were borne by the client. We would also take along a Hart Framer to knock a corner off the slab as a souvenier to take back to hubby.(grin) which exactly matched the slab delivered.(grin again in case of a "switch")I always placed the surface template on the slabs and had the client "sign" both the template and the slab. That is just the way I did it. Not much argument or doubt about what, where and what was chosen.I may be "old fashioned" and be considered frivolous but I can admit, I was never caught in the position you describe.I love interior decorators, especially their first cruise around the block.Warm Regards,JeffiePS: I never once had a client decline to spend the $2,000 or so for airfare and my expenses to take the effort to choose their own stones. Even on a simple $10-20,000 kitchen countertop job. If I felt they would balk at the expense, I never offered. I just excused myself and walked quietly away from the situation. They probably would not have appreciated the nature of the material or the work that went into the finished product.And on another note Rich (God bless you, you are one of us), screw the lawyers and the legal advice. Someone in this hornets nest was trying to make a dime off of something they didn't know diddly-shit about.The choice in stone finishes and coordination is not as trivial as which color Lincoln Navigator to drive off the lot!!! Sorry, I read the post.

4. 
   Donna_Smeaton | Dec 05, 1999 12:01am | #5

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   Jeffie
   Under normal circumstances, the slab selection process would have gone as you described with a GC overseeing the project and making sure that the granite supplier and client got together to pre-inspect the slab....as per my spec notes. However, in this case, the client hired the granite guy directly,(ultimately to save money.....), chose a granite from a series of sample pieces, and then never inspected the slab. Who is to blame? Should the granite guy have called when the slab arrived in town before cutting it up......or should the client have called every other day to find out when it was arriving? You tell me.
   By the way, I am an Interior Designer not an Interior Decorator. I knew when I was 12 years old that I wanted to do design work. I took Shop in high school instead of Home Economics back in the 70's. I studied Architecture for two years at the University of Waterloo before quitting ( I hated it...too philosophical for me), took a year off to work and cycle in Europe and then went back to school and got my design degree at Ryerson Polytechnical University in Toronto. I graduated in 1984 and started working immediately........so Jeffie I've been successfully cruising the block for quite awhile now. That success has been more in recognition, gratitude and praise from peers and clients than money....so your comment about making a dime and knowing diddly-shit doesn't apply here. I'm sorry you read the post too....but I'm even more sorry that I took the time to respond to your comments. I apologize to those of you who feel this post/thread should be somewhere called the Tavern...you are right.

1. 
   Donna_Smeaton | Dec 05, 1999 05:08am | #6

   *Hi RichThanks for the info. I hope to begin to change your opinion of IDs.Not to flog a dead horse, but only the wife went on holidays, her husband was at home the entire time.The clients continue to call me because #1 I haven't told them not to (they are great people to work with despite this saga) and #2 I'm doing more work for them....ya ya call me stupid...at least for this portion of the project I'll have only my own trim and cabinet guys involved. I could go on with more of this story and defend the client but I won't bore you any further......so on to the technical stuff.Do you ever use marble on counter tops? I see it used all the time in design magazines despite having the fear of God put into anyone contemplating marble instead of granite because of the acid problem. The article in the Kitchen and Bath issue of FHB on page 113 indicates that if a penetrating silicone sealer is used on a marble slab, it is protected. How often does the slab have to be re-sealed? Is it actually protected from the dulling of acids? There would be so many more options in counters if marble was durable enough.One more question if you please. I'm working on another bathroom that will have tumbled marble on the floor and walls (4x4s,3x3s,5/8 mosaics etc in three different marbles)with highly textured travertine mouldings on the walls as baseboard and chair rail pieces. Some of the samples are a bit chalky in texture and when dampened, they "bleed". It appears to simply be stone dust residue and it can be scrubbed off. I called the supplier and she had no idea what I was talking about. I'm assuming / hoping that once the tiles are sealed, they won't bleed. Do you have any experience / hints / comments on tumbled marble? Oh by the way, not to worry, this client has corian counters...yuck...they're staying..too bad.Thanks for your advice.Now, back to the drafting board...yup...I'm a dinosaur....no CAD for this old dog.CheersDonna

5. 
   Guest_ | Dec 05, 1999 06:12am | #7

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   Donna,

   I'm not sure if anyone has noticed that you said designer and not decorator. That implies you are a licensed architect, at least that's what you'd need to call yourself one in New York.

   Joseph Fusco

   View Image
   © 1999.

6. 
   Donna_Smeaton | Dec 05, 1999 07:10am | #8

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   Hi Joe
   I call myself an Interior Designer not simply a Designer and yes some guy did refer to me as a Decorator.

   Are Interior Designers in New York not allowed to use that designation? I thought ASID stood for American Society of Interior Designers? Here in Ontario Canada, you can't even say that you do architectural drawings or you get your knuckles rapped by the Architectural Association.

   Donna

7. 
   Guest_ | Dec 05, 1999 08:26am | #9

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   Hi Donna,

   My apologies. I thought that the term interior was understood in my statement. In New York the term "Designer" of anything, (interior, exterior, kitchens etc.) needs to either have an architect lic. or be employed by an architectural firm. There are many who do both but, go by "interior decorator" which needs no such lic.

   Anyhow, I hope that you have a "peaceful" resolution to your present dilemma.

   Joseph Fusco

   View Image
   © 1999.

8. 
   Donna_Smeaton | Dec 05, 1999 08:14pm | #10

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   Hi Joe
   Wow they are strict in NY. I take it is not country wide to have to work for an architectural firm to call yourself a designer? By the way, I take it that an Arch. Lic. means that you must have a degree in Arch. plus have done the apprenticeship, plus written the exam? That's how it is here up north.

   Here the title designer is confusing because it is all encompassing...could be graphic, industrial, architectural, interior, fashion etc. etc......that's why I try to be clear about using Interior Designer. There is a real territorial thing that goes on here after the annual Home Builders Awards when the winners get published in the local rags. A number of Architectural Technologists win....but so do some Architects, and it's always interesting to see what the articles actually call the A.Techs......It's usually Designer! That vague word! (Sounds classier than Tech, I guess)

   Thanks for the clarification....guess I won't be moving to NY anytime soon!!....unless, of course I go back and complete that degree in "Architorture" at U of Waterloo. No way.
   Thanks,
   Donna

9. 
   Donna_Smeaton | Jan 04, 2000 11:55pm | #11

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   Help. I need info on quartzite counter tops. I am working on the "Bathroom from Hell" and the client has had a run in with the granite supplier/installer. We're now onto our third choice of counter top material...which is beige Quartzite. The installer is warning the client that it tends to "burn" during cutting and shaping, and now he is also saying it chips and that they must sign an agreement to accept it in advance. I know it sounds bizarre but, trust me, this is one project gone bad and we're just trying to make the best of a bad situation......ie. the granite contractor has $2,000.00 of my client's money, he's substituted the granite once already, and cut the sinks in the wrong location....what can I say?
   Any info on this quartzite stuff would be most appreciated.
   Thanks,
   Donna (the interior designer)