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I’ll be going to two roofing seminars this week. Our EPDM membrane manufacturer is holding annual training here on Tuesday and our shingle manufacturer is hosting a meeting on Thursday.
Bring on your tough roofing questions and I’ll put them to the pro’s.
Fred
Listeners write in about haunted pipes and building-science tomes, and they ask questions about roof venting and roof leaks.
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
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Fred, Went to a EPDM seminar a few weeks ago.The only thing I really wanted to know was why don't they have a glue for the rubber that has a slower grab time.The rep looked at me like I was an idiot.I said that when I try to flop out a 20'x30' piece of seamless by myself it would be a LOT easier if I had a couple of minutes to work out the occasional wrinkle before the glue set up instead of the instant contact cement bond.He implied I should just flop it without wrinkles the first time.Then he said there is a water based glue that could be used on a porous substrate like cdx or insulboard(but not osb).His idea was you rolled the glue on the deck till the deck was quite wet . Don't apply any glue to the rubber, just roll it out dry on to the wet deck.broom the rubber down to assure firm and continuos contact. the glue will then cure as the moisture is absorbed into the substrate.Depending on the temperature it could take up to 24hours for the glue to finally set up.(make sure your roof doesn't blow off over night)I would like to know what your rep thinks of this method cause frankly it scares the piss out of me.I have got a couple of these jobs coming up that I would like to try it on, but it seems to easy, if you know what I mean. What do you think, and what does HE think. Thanks in advance, Stephen
*Fred, thanks for the info. I will wait for the results of your seminar. Stephen
*Rubber Roof Boys...Have a feew glue downs under the belt....On the last job I licked the procedure!!!! The broom out method is now history thank God.It has to do with knowing how to fold em and knowing how to roll em in place....And working in a specific sequence of sections so as not to tackle too much at a time and create wrinkle and bubble Heaven.I am redoing a half lap leaky mess this spring (soon actually) and plan on just sheathing over old roof with OSB for gluing surface unless the Roofing Supplier carries a less expensive material.Water based glue....Does it work the same way??? and do you use a water based seam sealer and top caulking???J
*Ask them if we really need roofs.
*Fred don't forget to ask about venting and warranties 8-)-Rob
*Jack,My supplier says to use the same splice adhesive we have always used.(it is not water based).I rarely need to use splice adhesive though,because I will by as big a sheet as I need to avoid making splices(that is the primary beauty of this material--no seams.On rare occasions there is a soil stack or a chimney to deal with and I will continue with the same splice adhesive.I am very interested in this water based cement though because if I can roll the rubber out on to wet glue these can be very quick and neat installations.(MUCH quicker than the method you describe which sounds pretty much like my current technique).I do a lot of rubber roof installations each year and I am always looking for better and faster ways. Waiting to hear from Fred's seminar,Stephen
*Stephen,Try a test set up with scraps...And let me know how it works...I know nothing of the system you talk of...Is there literature available????J
*Jack, If weather permits I am going to do 2 rubber roof installations next week.I had kind of planned to do a test run in my garage/shop this weekend so I could see how quick this water based cement sets up(with no sunshine to help it ).I am going to tryplywood and osb as substrates in addition to the insulboard I usually use. I will let you know how it works out. Good luck, Stephen
*Adirondack Jack,I did a test run with the new glue today.Insulboard,plywood,osb substrate samples. 1 of each in direct sun,47 degrees. 1of each in shade, about 10 degrees cooler.Applied water based glue to rubber and substrate,mated together while both were wet.After 15 minutes in sun glue was starting to set up but still "workable". After 30 minutes I would feel comfortable leaving the job for lunch cause the rubber ain't gonna blow off and yet was still workable.At 1 hour in the sun I would feel safe to leave for the day,but re-check the following day.Glue bond was solid and the insulboard failed before the glue did.Insulboard set up quickest,followed closely by plywood.osb took much,much longer. All above times were for sun exposure. The shaded samples took at least twice as long to set up( althogh the osb shade sample seemed to end up the strongest)I am pretty confident this method will work well in hot weather although I will have to work much faster. I think this method will give me the "fudge factor" I am looking for.Unless Fred L reports back from his seminar with disasterous news about the longevity of this glue, I think I am gonna switch.The glue cost about $110 for 5 gallons and smells like Elmers school Glue. Good Luck, Stephen
*Stephen,You're a mad scientist at heart....The glue you used is the Penco 8010 pictured by Fred???Is it made for the purpose and is it bought at the epdm supply house and do the directions on the can talk of wet placement????Trying to fully "get with the program"...I will be doing my roof very soon...Thanks for the results of your experimentation...J
*Adirondack Jack, The glue was Alpha Systems 8010.I assume the 8010 designation means it is the same type of glue,just a different brand name. There are no directions on the can(just says" in case of contact with skin ,wash with soap and water").It is sold by my local roofing supplier who also carries epdm.I think this method might be considered "pushing the envelope".Of course I also know that Ice Gaurd was originally developed for one type of roof application and we have since found quite a few other situations where Ice Gaurd is helpfull.I am also thinking of rolling out the rubber while the glue is wet on the main part of the roofs, but stopping about 8" from each edge.I can then glue down the perimeter using the glue as a contact cement. I don't usually have any problem with wrinkles on 8" wide strips. This will mean the edge of the roof is absolutely secure and safe,yet the quickly(and also wrinkle free) main part of the sheet can finish curing at it's own speed without any worry on my part. I also checked my test pieces today at the 24 hour mark and even the osb piece is in solid bond. Good Luck, Stephen
*Stephen,Thanks...When I set up my rubber, I fold it enough to get it down to a size I can handle...then after glue is on and ready, I grab the edge that's back without lifting it and "push it."...Unbelievably wrinkle free...no broom except to clean deck and to press down rolled rubber...This method is totally different than the way a pro showed me...Is this a better way for you possibly?...Have pictures just no way to post yet...J
*Jack,I am talking about working some sheets that are 20'x25',by myself.I have used the method you describe many times,but I find it slow especially in cooler weather.There are always some wrinkles .This new way means I will be able to roll it out about as fast as I can apply the glue and get as near to wrinkle free installation as humanly possible.Once the sheet is rolled out I can splice in the witches hats or work on wall flashing or even work on packing up tools etc.,while the glue is curing.Much less wasted time,neater job,higher profits, can't wait to start.Also,since this is a water based glue,I don't need to fear the disaster that awaits when a quick rain shower mists on drying and exposed contact cement covered decking or rubber.( you would not believe the bubbles this can cause. I am hoping to try this method out full size about wednesday. Good Luck, Stephen
*Stephen,I am definitely using your new method for my boathouse roof....I love saving time and killing a flock of birds with one stone...I just thought I was pretty clever when I came up with my wrinkle free push it method...So much easier than what the pro showed me and way faster....Switching again and again,J
*Does anyone use EPDM on steeper roofs? Is there a way to cover it to improve its looks? Maybe the manufacturer could print "shingles" on it!
*Time for more patents....Anyway...No need for pitch with it....les money....break out your favorite wright design and start nailing it together...J
*What is the largest size seamless sheet you feel you could install using the "new" adhesive? Do you feel that any one substrate is better than another? Do you have any recommendations or warnings regarding what "layers" to use (substrate to finish material) for a "flat" roof that will be finished with bluestone? I'll work backwards and size the joists off the dead/live load combo. Area is about 28' by 20' with a living area under it.
*Mongo,I just finished a roof 17x25.New system worked fine although my technique still needs a little tweaking.Glue is VERY slow to set up on the drip edge if rubber applied over wet glue. Next job I will let glue on metal areas start to Air dry before I flop the sheet over on it.I used high density fiberboard (celotex) as a substrate.Next job I will use plywood.It is more workable if you need to re-position the sheet.I am very satisfied but I can still improve on my technique. Good Luck, Stephen
*Thanks for the info, Stephen.What degree of slope do you like to see on these roofs?For stone, do you put a mortar bed directly over the EPDM? If so, any recommended thickness?How about duckboards if using wood?I would guess additional strips of rubber under the duckboards would help protect the main membrane. It seems you're pretty knowledgable and experienced in this field. With regard to failures, I'm sure penetrations (ie stacks, posts, etc) are number one, but what do you find causes most of the failures on the main membrane? Sharp edges on the duckboards?Sorry for so many Q's, thanks for any info,Mongo
*Mongo, I have used this material on roofs virtualy dead flat on up to about 3/12.At around 3/12 the material is hard to get it to lay still on the roof before you glue down.If you are not carefull the entire 20x30 sheet will slide right off the roof.I don't really know much about putting flooring over this material, although it is sometimes installed loose with a layer of gravel as ballast on top.I have never done so,but it has been suggested to me by a rep to Duct Tape sheeting seams prior to glue down to protect membrane from rubbing against edge of sheeting.In general I am opposed to using roofs as floors but there are pads available to go under duck boards.If the roof is properly installed,flashed,seamed and spliced etc. it is very reliable. I find the main cause of problems to be punctures in high traffic areas.Dropped tools, mechanical systems covers, Even something sharp embedded in your shoe sole.Repairs are simple,like patching a inner tube.(If you can find the puncture)There are a lot of even better and quicker fastener systems available if the surface and edge of the roof is not visible, but the fully adhered system we have been talking about looks best in a residential application.As you probably know this product was originally marketed for comercial roofs.I see huge profit potential in the residential market,IF YOU SELL TO THE RIGHT CUSTOMERS.Present it as a high end product and price it accordingly.By the way,20x30 is a HEAVY piece of material.Want to guess how 1 guy gets it up a ladder(not bragging here but there is a simple trick)Good Luck,Stephen
*My guess is that you fold it in half so it is ten feet wide. Climb the ladder pulling one end up with you, then once on the roof keep pulling it up, rolling or piling it up as it comes.Presumably, one does something at the edge of the roof to prevent damage to the membrane.I've done four of these, and I work alone. I haven't had to resort to this method yet, but I've come close. I've thought about it a lot. Is this right?Rich Beckman
*I want to know...and you're entitled to brag!I'd cut it up into workable pieces, maybe 3'x3'!Blue
*blue,You sound like you're deep into the stream of booze tonight....or have you had twenty cups of coffee...Why not shred the rubber and blow it up onto the roof with a combined adhesive mixture...Near the stream,J
*Moving rubber to the roof for us has been a "three stooges" affair....Ever watch three guys carrying a roll of rubber from a truck and then proceed to climb a ladder as a group shoving the backsides of the one in front up one rung at a time?....The lead guy on the ladder ends up with all the weight on his shoulder, that's why the other two ended up pushing butts...Never sweated more in thirty seconds in my life. Definitely would be happy to hear of an easier method or two.Near the stream,J
*Stephen, Fred, thanks much for the details, very much appreciated.Mongo
*Fred,I don't know how you get that solvent based to dry at 10 degrees,I have problems getting it to dry in the 30's!OK,Rich and Jack. Here is my method (although I hesitate to share it) It is so simple you will kick yourself for not figuring it out.(I know I did it the hard way for 2 years before I had a flash of inspiration)On the ground,near your ladder, fold the sheet in half.Take a 10'2x4 and roll the rubber up around the 2x4. Now the roll looks something roughly like its original form that you bought it in Right? Here comes the fun part! Stand the roll up on end,Quickly put your shoulder against it and let the entire roll "pivot" up onto your shoulder. Make sure it is balanced and just carry it up the ladder. When you get your shoulders even with the edge of the roof swing the roll around so that 1 end rests on the roof and roll it the rest of the way onto the roof.It takes longer to describe than to do, and one guy can do the whole process.The beauty of it is you are handling probably200+ lbs may be 300, and there is really no heavy lifting involved.The entire time you are just shifting the balance point of the weight and you are in a perfect safe lifting position with your back straight and legs doing the work.Remember it isn't the weight that is the big problem it is handling the floppiness of it and the 2x4 solves that .After that it just a balanceing act.Once the rubber is rolled up it takes maybe 8-10 seconds for every thing else and 1 guy does it all. 2 or 3 guys would just screw up the balance of it all.Weak mind+strong back=roofer
*Stephen,Thanks. This is interesting. But I have to admit, if it is 300 pounds, I don't think I could do it. What is the largest sheet you've gotten up this way? How thick was it?I am trying to remember. I think the largest sheet I've managed to get onto a roof is 10 x 30. This is half of your example. That was a bit of a struggle. Your method would simplify, but to the point I could double the weight?I look forward to trying it out.Rich Beckman
*Rich, If I remember right,18x34 or 18x36. There is another way I will use if I need one lifted that is much bigger.My local towing and crane service has a very small boom truck mounted on a van that will lift it for a nominal charge.I have yet to need it though.Also I don't think the roll weighs quite 300# but I am sure it is well over 200#Remember all the lifting will be with your legs,no bending over,etc. It is unbelievably easier. Try it on a smaller sheet and you will soon see the size sheet you are willing to try it on increase. Good Luck, Stephen
*Stephen,Great idea the 2x4...I owe you one.Nearer the stream,J
*Fred, I would have guessed closer to 50#/sq.I know they load the rolls on my truck with a towmotor.Local suppliers have conveyour trucks but will not send rubber up on the conveyor.Anyhow the point I have been trying to make is that the weight can be managed if you adress the floppiness issue.Good Luck,sunny and 51* today, Stephen
*fred,You are doing graphics like you're drawing lines on paper.....unbelievable...Near the stream,J
*Well, he does have a Mac you know. ;)
*. . . and maybe a scanner